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Biden spanks billionaires

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Which implementation of Marxist economic setup was ever democratic? Marxism has been authoratian or dictotrial since its birth.
Unfortunately for humanity, Marxism has only taken hold in a few places that were rather primitive and had no traditions of freedom and democracy. Unsurprisingly, the powerful elites in Russia, China, and Cambodia took advantage of that and turned Marxism into the state religion. With all the usual problems of an authoritarian theocracy, like genocidal disasters.

Here in more democratic places we used socialism to improve things.

But the Communist authoritarians sold out Marx and his dream of "the withering away of the state" because humans tend to do that.
Tom
I've read that communist governments varied from place to place. The more advanced ones polled their public constantly and evaluated the public mood in other ways. If a candidate for elected office would not get more than 50 percent of the vote them he or she would be replaced by someone else before election time.
 
I've read that communist governments varied from place to place. The more advanced ones polled their public and evaluated the public mood in other ways. If a candidate for elected office would not get more than 50 percent of the vote them he or she would be replaced by someone else before election time.
Could you be more clear? Like, which governments did this? I don't know about any, except maybe for low level bureaucrats.
Tom
 
The problem is that the vast majority of that money is in productive things. It needs to remain in those things
Eliminating owners of those productive things doesn’t automatically cause the productive things to cease to exist or to cease being productive.
But it doesn't produce money, either.
 
And yet every time a society tried eliminating owners of those productive things the productive things to ceased to exist or ceased being productive.
Every time that didn’t happen, the non-event didn’t make history.
And that's supposed to be relevant how? He's saying x => y. You're saying !x. No conclusions can be drawn.

For an example of what he's talking about look at the oil industry in Venezuela. The state took it over and spent the money it produced without paying the upkeep costs. Whenever society gets it's hands on a cow they either eat it outright or starve it and then complain when it doesn't give enough milk.
 
The problem is that the vast majority of that money is in productive things. It needs to remain in those things
Eliminating owners of those productive things doesn’t automatically cause the productive things to cease to exist or to cease being productive.
And yet every time a society tried eliminating owners of those productive things the productive things to ceased to exist or ceased being productive. It's almost as though there are more automatic cause and effect relationships in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in communists' philosophy.
Societies tend to be very hamfisted in their direct eliminations of current ownerships. They usually break things in the process.
Antitrust actions are more like what I had in mind.
Which is a completely different thing. Although note that enforced breakups tend not to go too well.
 
Which implementation of Marxist economic setup was ever democratic? Marxism has been authoratian or dictotrial since its birth.
Unfortunately for humanity, Marxism has only taken hold in a few places that were rather primitive and had no traditions of freedom and democracy. Unsurprisingly, the powerful elites in Russia, China, and Cambodia took advantage of that and turned Marxism into the state religion. With all the usual problems of an authoritarian theocracy, like genocidal disasters.

Here in more democratic places we used socialism to improve things.

But the Communist authoritarians sold out Marx and his dream of "the withering away of the state" because humans tend to do that.
Tom
Withering away of the state was always a pipe dream. Marx even knew such a society could not produce expensive things--note that he said to wait until a country was industrialized. That means that he knew a communist state couldn't create those things. He failed to realize that it wasn't a one-time process.
 
The problem is that the vast majority of that money is in productive things. It needs to remain in those things
Eliminating owners of those productive things doesn’t automatically cause the productive things to cease to exist or to cease being productive.
But it doesn't produce money, either.
WHAT doesn’t produce money?
You mean it doesn’t necessarily produce MORE money. If it’s a desirable change of ownership, it benefits all parties. If it only benefits one party … well, that’s why we have the second amendment, right?
 
Which implementation of Marxist economic setup was ever democratic? Marxism has been authoratian or dictotrial since its birth.
Unfortunately for humanity, Marxism has only taken hold in a few places that were rather primitive and had no traditions of freedom and democracy. Unsurprisingly, the powerful elites in Russia, China, and Cambodia took advantage of that and turned Marxism into the state religion. With all the usual problems of an authoritarian theocracy, like genocidal disasters.
That's not actually true -- the Marxists got power in Czechoslovakia, which had had normal Western traditions of freedom and democracy, by winning free elections. Of course they wore out their welcome in a few years because Marxism is a really bad idea. When the people tried to vote them out of power, the Marxists predictably decided they weren't up for that, and abolished democracy. Anybody who didn't see that coming was a damn fool. Turns out people can be argued into slavery.
 
Dude, I'm not in favor of street justice. You flat out shoot people engaged in active rebellion but those who surrender or are later charged with such a crime once the fighting stops should get a trial.

As for Marx he was very much in favor of democracy.
That depends on what you mean by democracy. The "democracy" Marx was in favor of was not what Westerners typically think of as democracy, with all that bourgeois nonsense about The Rights Of Man, rule of law, and protection of minorities from the tyranny of the majority. He took his majority rule in pure form -- he called what he had in mind "Dictatorship of the Proletariat", and with good reason. When asked what that meant in practice, he said the Paris Commune. Marx was all in for street justice.
 
The problem is that the vast majority of that money is in productive things. It needs to remain in those things
Eliminating owners of those productive things doesn’t automatically cause the productive things to cease to exist or to cease being productive.
But it doesn't produce money, either.
WHAT doesn’t produce money?
You mean it doesn’t necessarily produce MORE money. If it’s a desirable change of ownership, it benefits all parties. If it only benefits one party … well, that’s why we have the second amendment, right?
The point is the change of ownership doesn't allow you to redirect the money to consumer spending. It messes things up every time it's tried. It's a variation on the printing presses.
 
Which implementation of Marxist economic setup was ever democratic? Marxism has been authoratian or dictotrial since its birth.
Unfortunately for humanity, Marxism has only taken hold in a few places that were rather primitive and had no traditions of freedom and democracy. Unsurprisingly, the powerful elites in Russia, China, and Cambodia took advantage of that and turned Marxism into the state religion. With all the usual problems of an authoritarian theocracy, like genocidal disasters.
That's not actually true -- the Marxists got power in Czechoslovakia, which had had normal Western traditions of freedom and democracy, by winning free elections. Of course they wore out their welcome in a few years because Marxism is a really bad idea. When the people tried to vote them out of power, the Marxists predictably decided they weren't up for that, and abolished democracy. Anybody who didn't see that coming was a damn fool. Turns out people can be argued into slavery.

Hamas members are Marxists? :unsure:
 
The point is the change of ownership doesn't necessarily allow you to redirect the money to consumer spending
(bolded added)
Absolutely. In fact in the current climate of vulture capitalism, the opposite is more likely, especially with commodity products. But not always - at least in principle. We're frozen though.
We place very wealthy people at the head of hundreds-of-billions-of-dollars Companies to ensure that the interests of the wealthy will be assiduously maintained. Displacing them only means hiring an insider clone with a different face, or suffering devastating failure because there are only a few people who know how to "run" those kinds of companies effectively, and they are all multimillionaires on board with the system that allocates personal wealth. Income and wealth disparity are the lifeblood of that system.
 
Which implementation of Marxist economic setup was ever democratic? Marxism has been authoratian or dictotrial since its birth.
Unfortunately for humanity, Marxism has only taken hold in a few places that were rather primitive and had no traditions of freedom and democracy. Unsurprisingly, the powerful elites in Russia, China, and Cambodia took advantage of that and turned Marxism into the state religion. With all the usual problems of an authoritarian theocracy, like genocidal disasters.
That's not actually true -- the Marxists got power in Czechoslovakia, which had had normal Western traditions of freedom and democracy, by winning free elections. Of course they wore out their welcome in a few years because Marxism is a really bad idea. When the people tried to vote them out of power, the Marxists predictably decided they weren't up for that, and abolished democracy. Anybody who didn't see that coming was a damn fool. Turns out people can be argued into slavery.

Hamas members are Marxists? :unsure:
Presumably some are and some aren't -- that's pretty much inevitable in a group held together by non-economic ideology. But the leadership don't run Gaza like Marxists; they run it like Mafia dons -- they're all for private enterprise as long as businessmen pay their protection-racket money and don't compete with Hamas-owned businesses.
 
The point is the change of ownership doesn't necessarily allow you to redirect the money to consumer spending
(bolded added)
Absolutely. In fact in the current climate of vulture capitalism, the opposite is more likely, especially with commodity products. But not always - at least in principle. We're frozen though.
We place very wealthy people at the head of hundreds-of-billions-of-dollars Companies to ensure that the interests of the wealthy will be assiduously maintained. Displacing them only means hiring an insider clone with a different face, or suffering devastating failure because there are only a few people who know how to "run" those kinds of companies effectively, and they are all multimillionaires on board with the system that allocates personal wealth. Income and wealth disparity are the lifeblood of that system.

Yeah, you know what, it wouldn’t even be that big of a problem if these greedy fucks didn’t expect constant growth. I mean, damn, if you made a profit, be happy with that shit, man. Don’t start laying people off and shutting down locations just because you made 900 million instead of 1 billion last year. What the hell?
 
Don’t keep the stockholders happy, The Board ain’t happy and out the door you go.
 
Don’t keep the stockholders happy, The Board ain’t happy and out the door you go.
I don't think the BOD of mega corps pay much attention to the shareholders at all.
They sure do - the MAJOR stockholders elect them.
Typically, the MAJOR stockholders are institutions, whose boards of directors have the attitude that boards of directors should be trusted to know what's best. Particularly when such boards often share memberships.

It's a small club.
 
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