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Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

If you take away the demand for prostitutes then there won't be any. Poverty and socio-economic inequality is a problem that needs solving regardless of that, and rampant prostitution from desperate women who don't know how else to keep the heat on is merely a symptom of this.

So if you have a good support system in place and desperate women don't need to be prostitutes, why then ban prostitution? And if you somehow get rid of the demand for prostitution without having such a support system in place, then what are you accomplishing aside from taking away a direly needed source of income?

For reasons I've already explained. I am not convinced that legalizing prostitution would be a net benefit to society, and if that rando's post I linked and quoted a few pages back is to be believed then I am entirely right to be skeptical.
 
Why do you want to hurt women and see them murdered in the street?
Probably for the same reasons you want to see women and young girls made into sex slaves.

Legalizing the practice makes them not slaves.
Not necessarily. There is nothing logically inconsistent with legal prostitutes being sex slaves.
By accusing him of wanting to enslave them via the process of emancipating them from slavery you have sunk to new depths of incoherence.
Sorry, you are literally lightyears ahead of anyone on incoherence. I simply used his reasoning for accusing Toni of wanting women hurt and murdered on the street to his position. Interestingly, you did not seem to interject with his accusation. Hmmm.
 
That sounds like an argument for universal basic income and universal single payer health care to me, like I wrote above and have been advocating for on this forum for years.



How is that going to help these women other than by taking away an income source?

If you take away the demand for prostitutes then there won't be any. Poverty and socio-economic inequality is a problem that needs solving regardless of that, and rampant prostitution from desperate women who don't know how else to keep the heat on is merely a symptom of this.

If you take away the demand for alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, then there won't be a market for them either, and they will stop being produced.

Don't hold your breath.

Prohibition never constrains demand, and usually stimulates it.

As with alcohol, the question really comes down to 'Do you want prostitution run by legitimate businesspeople, who mostly comply with the regulations imposed by government to keep things as safe as possible; or do you want prostitution run by organized crime gangs?' There really are no other options, no matter how much we might wish that there was.
 
That sounds like an argument for universal basic income and universal single payer health care to me, like I wrote above and have been advocating for on this forum for years.



How is that going to help these women other than by taking away an income source?

If you take away the demand for prostitutes then there won't be any. Poverty and socio-economic inequality is a problem that needs solving regardless of that, and rampant prostitution from desperate women who don't know how else to keep the heat on is merely a symptom of this.

If you take away the demand for alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, then there won't be a market for them either, and they will stop being produced.

Don't hold your breath.

Prohibition never constrains demand, and usually stimulates it.

As with alcohol, the question really comes down to 'Do you want prostitution run by legitimate businesspeople, who mostly comply with the regulations imposed by government to keep things as safe as possible; or do you want prostitution run by organized crime gangs?' There really are no other options, no matter how much we might wish that there was.

The difference is that there is no technological substitute for most drugs(That I know of...) I stated this earlier and its worth repeating, the technological replacement for pros-you know what? PSTs. The replacement for PSTs doesn't have to be as good, only more cost effective and less of a hassel than the real deal. Perhaps its premature to say that current tech will get us there but I am confident that we're on the right track.
 
The replacement for PSTs doesn't have to be as good, only more cost effective and less of a hassel than the real deal. Perhaps its premature to say that current tech will get us there but I am confident that we're on the right track.

What do you think the societal impact of subsidizing porn and fleshlights would be? More or less prostitution? How about if we subsidized the prostitution of willing sex workers? I'm sure there are many who would sign on. Do you think that would cut down on sex trafficking etc?
 
If you take away the demand for alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, then there won't be a market for them either, and they will stop being produced.

Don't hold your breath.

Prohibition never constrains demand, and usually stimulates it.

As with alcohol, the question really comes down to 'Do you want prostitution run by legitimate businesspeople, who mostly comply with the regulations imposed by government to keep things as safe as possible; or do you want prostitution run by organized crime gangs?' There really are no other options, no matter how much we might wish that there was.

The difference is that there is no technological substitute for most drugs(That I know of...) I stated this earlier and its worth repeating, the technological replacement for pros-you know what? PSTs. The replacement for PSTs doesn't have to be as good, only more cost effective and less of a hassel than the real deal. Perhaps its premature to say that current tech will get us there but I am confident that we're on the right track.

If you think that a sizable fraction of the people who choose a prostitute (at non-zero cost) over their own hands (free of charge) are going to choose a machine (no matter how sophisticated) in place of a real human prostitute, then you are fucking crazy. It might just possibly happen if you can make a machine that is completely indistinguishable in every way from a human prostitute. But as that is going to be technically possible at a low cost somewhere on the order of never, it's really not worth considering today.

You could as well suggest that people masturbate (clearly they won't choose that option even at zero cost, or we wouldn't be having this discussion); or that we replace human prostitutes with magic space unicorns. A certain degree of science fantasy is entertaining in fiction; but it has no place in a serious discussion about a genuine current problem.

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The replacement for PSTs doesn't have to be as good, only more cost effective and less of a hassel than the real deal. Perhaps its premature to say that current tech will get us there but I am confident that we're on the right track.

What do you think the societal impact of subsidizing porn and fleshlights would be? More or less prostitution? How about if we subsidized the prostitution of willing sex workers? I'm sure there are many who would sign on. Do you think that would cut down on sex trafficking etc?

Given that porn and masturbation are available to (almost) everyone with an Internet connection, right now free of charge, I think it's safe to say that the impact of subsidizing porn and fleshlights is going to be zero.
 
Sure. Do you not think that these guys see multiple sex workers?


Of course they do, but that doesn't mean they don't also pick them up from prostitutes, and removing any infected person from the cycle is going to help. If prostitutes are being licensed then they are far easier to monitor and remove form the cycle.

If removing infected people from the cycle is the goal, why not insist upon universal testing of customer and sex worker?

BTW, this still does not address the window of greatest infectivity: that period of time between infection and the possibility of being detected by the best, newest and most sensitive screen tests out there.

And still you have expressed ZERO concern for a prostitute who is unable to work after contracting an incurable STI.

I would think it goes without saying that all of us here are concerned about people, and not just prostitutes, that contract incurable STIs. Its one good reason to have universal health care.

Still dodging: what is a prostitute with an incurable STI supposed to do to earn a living? How does universal health care help with that?

Curbing prostitution due to desperation is also a good reason for universal basic income, which you have told me in the past that you oppose.

Uh, no I haven't.

I'm waiting for your concern.

Ok, then I'll wait for yours. You've shown zero concern over sex workers being pushed by these laws you support into dangerous working conditions, ironically including higher STIs due to lack of legalization and regulation and testing. I wasn't questioning or suggesting that you don't care about them, but if you want to play such games, then ok. Why do you want to hurt women and see them murdered in the street?

What is preventing sex workers from being tested for STIs now? There is no law against it and you've touted Canada's universal health care. Should be easy-peasy so why is it an issue with or without legalization?

Why aren't the lives of prostitutes valued now? It isn't the legal status. It might be somewhat related to the fact that so many of them are not white, are not from middle or upper class families, are from devalued populations of poor people.

And again: what is a sex worker who has contracted HIV supposed to do? How is she supposed to pay rent or mortgage, utilities, food, basic necessities of life? Much less: have an actual life?

My concerns are primarily with helping people find good ways to earn a living and to make a life they want, where they feel valued and are treated well and have a future.

Few prostitutes enter sex work because that has been their ambition.
 
If you think that a sizable fraction of the people who choose a prostitute (at non-zero cost) over their own hands (free of charge) are going to choose a machine (no matter how sophisticated) in place of a real human prostitute, then you are fucking crazy. It might just possibly happen if you can make a machine that is completely indistinguishable in every way from a human prostitute. But as that is going to be technically possible at a low cost somewhere on the order of never, it's really not worth considering today.

You could as well suggest that people masturbate (clearly they won't choose that option even at zero cost, or we wouldn't be having this discussion); or that we replace human prostitutes with magic space unicorns. A certain degree of science fantasy is entertaining in fiction; but it has no place in a serious discussion about a genuine current problem.

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The replacement for PSTs doesn't have to be as good, only more cost effective and less of a hassel than the real deal. Perhaps its premature to say that current tech will get us there but I am confident that we're on the right track.

What do you think the societal impact of subsidizing porn and fleshlights would be? More or less prostitution? How about if we subsidized the prostitution of willing sex workers? I'm sure there are many who would sign on. Do you think that would cut down on sex trafficking etc?

Given that porn and masturbation are available to (almost) everyone with an Internet connection, right now free of charge, I think it's safe to say that the impact of subsidizing porn and fleshlights is going to be zero.

Well you could always go with the more boring idea of fostering good mental and emotional health in children on a societal level and teach them to seek meaningful relationships over ephemeral flights of fancy and the best way to do that in as harmonious a fashion as possible and that it is further in their best interest to do so on a variety of levels, perhaps mandating it as a part of our education system. Have we tried that yet?
 
That sounds like an argument for universal basic income and universal single payer health care to me, like I wrote above and have been advocating for on this forum for years.



How is that going to help these women other than by taking away an income source?

If you take away the demand for prostitutes then there won't be any. Poverty and socio-economic inequality is a problem that needs solving regardless of that, and rampant prostitution from desperate women who don't know how else to keep the heat on is merely a symptom of this.

If you take away the demand for alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, then there won't be a market for them either, and they will stop being produced.

Don't hold your breath.

Prohibition never constrains demand, and usually stimulates it.

As with alcohol, the question really comes down to 'Do you want prostitution run by legitimate businesspeople, who mostly comply with the regulations imposed by government to keep things as safe as possible; or do you want prostitution run by organized crime gangs?' There really are no other options, no matter how much we might wish that there was.

Do you think the demand for marijuana has gone up or down as it has been legalized?
 
If you take away the demand for alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, then there won't be a market for them either, and they will stop being produced.

Don't hold your breath.

Prohibition never constrains demand, and usually stimulates it.

As with alcohol, the question really comes down to 'Do you want prostitution run by legitimate businesspeople, who mostly comply with the regulations imposed by government to keep things as safe as possible; or do you want prostitution run by organized crime gangs?' There really are no other options, no matter how much we might wish that there was.

Do you think the demand for marijuana has gone up or down as it has been legalized?

I'd bet up, and will likely stay that way due to the variety of means of consumption. It doesn't need to be smoked or vaped, you can just include it into your cooking. People like to eat and aren't about to stop anytime soon. Frankly I think edibles are the future, but then I don't know shit about speculative business ventures.

here's a fun question: Had we doubled down on prohibition and stuck it out for a few decades, do you think we'd have eventually seen the desired outcome?
 
If you think that a sizable fraction of the people who choose a prostitute (at non-zero cost) over their own hands (free of charge) are going to choose a machine (no matter how sophisticated) in place of a real human prostitute, then you are fucking crazy. It might just possibly happen if you can make a machine that is completely indistinguishable in every way from a human prostitute. But as that is going to be technically possible at a low cost somewhere on the order of never, it's really not worth considering today.

You could as well suggest that people masturbate (clearly they won't choose that option even at zero cost, or we wouldn't be having this discussion); or that we replace human prostitutes with magic space unicorns. A certain degree of science fantasy is entertaining in fiction; but it has no place in a serious discussion about a genuine current problem.

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Given that porn and masturbation are available to (almost) everyone with an Internet connection, right now free of charge, I think it's safe to say that the impact of subsidizing porn and fleshlights is going to be zero.

Well you could always go with the more boring idea of fostering good mental and emotional health in children on a societal level and teach them to seek meaningful relationships over ephemeral flights of fancy and the best way to do that in as harmonious a fashion as possible and that it is further in their best interest to do so on a variety of levels, perhaps mandating it as a part of our education system. Have we tried that yet?

That sounds like an excellent solution to all kinds of problems - violence, war, drugs, theft, alcohol abuse, and prostitution amongst them. It's never yet met with any more than the most minuscule success though, which does seem to indicate that it simply isn't practical, at least in the short to medium term. So we need a compromise position, that minimizes harm during the centuries or millennia that your idea will take to implement.
 
If you take away the demand for alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, then there won't be a market for them either, and they will stop being produced.

Don't hold your breath.

Prohibition never constrains demand, and usually stimulates it.

As with alcohol, the question really comes down to 'Do you want prostitution run by legitimate businesspeople, who mostly comply with the regulations imposed by government to keep things as safe as possible; or do you want prostitution run by organized crime gangs?' There really are no other options, no matter how much we might wish that there was.

Do you think the demand for marijuana has gone up or down as it has been legalized?

That's difficult to say, and I doubt there is good data to be had.

It's undeniable that the societal harm due to marijuana has gone down though, so why would we care if the demand has, in fact, gone up?
 
If you think that a sizable fraction of the people who choose a prostitute (at non-zero cost) over their own hands (free of charge) are going to choose a machine (no matter how sophisticated) in place of a real human prostitute, then you are fucking crazy. It might just possibly happen if you can make a machine that is completely indistinguishable in every way from a human prostitute. But as that is going to be technically possible at a low cost somewhere on the order of never, it's really not worth considering today.

You could as well suggest that people masturbate (clearly they won't choose that option even at zero cost, or we wouldn't be having this discussion); or that we replace human prostitutes with magic space unicorns. A certain degree of science fantasy is entertaining in fiction; but it has no place in a serious discussion about a genuine current problem.

- - - Updated - - -



Given that porn and masturbation are available to (almost) everyone with an Internet connection, right now free of charge, I think it's safe to say that the impact of subsidizing porn and fleshlights is going to be zero.

Well you could always go with the more boring idea of fostering good mental and emotional health in children on a societal level and teach them to seek meaningful relationships over ephemeral flights of fancy and the best way to do that in as harmonious a fashion as possible and that it is further in their best interest to do so on a variety of levels, perhaps mandating it as a part of our education system. Have we tried that yet?

That sounds like an excellent solution to all kinds of problems - violence, war, drugs, theft, alcohol abuse, and prostitution amongst them. It's never yet met with any more than the most minuscule success though, which does seem to indicate that it simply isn't practical, at least in the short to medium term. So we need a compromise position, that minimizes harm during the centuries or millennia that your idea will take to implement.

Honestly I am content to not have my dreams shattered a second time. :p
 
I just don't get how it's so hard for people, even here to identify that we have tried a LOT of things with regards to prostitution, and one of the few things that seems to work in terms of increasing safety is using online marketplaces, and legalization, and that some combination of the two would probably work out best of all.

It shouldn't matter that people think whoring is indignant, or if sometimes people will exploit others. The question is if that happens less when it is legal or when it is illegal, and we are starting to see that it is less when it is legal, and when women in that business are given full access to legal and medical support.

Nothing else should matter but the welbeing of the women in the industry, and that won't happen when it is illegal and shoved further underground.
 
This is so adorable.

After Charlottesville, you and the other conservolibertarians defended actual Nazis waving actual Nazi flags while chanting classic Nazi slogans, you guys got really angry that people were there counterprotesting the Nazis, and yet here you are insisting that other people are the "real fascists."

How do you do that? Shouldn't those mental gymnastics twist your brain into knots?
 
If you take away the demand for alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs, then there won't be a market for them either, and they will stop being produced.

Don't hold your breath.

Prohibition never constrains demand, and usually stimulates it.

As with alcohol, the question really comes down to 'Do you want prostitution run by legitimate businesspeople, who mostly comply with the regulations imposed by government to keep things as safe as possible; or do you want prostitution run by organized crime gangs?' There really are no other options, no matter how much we might wish that there was.

Do you think the demand for marijuana has gone up or down as it has been legalized?

That's difficult to say, and I doubt there is good data to be had.

It's undeniable that the societal harm due to marijuana has gone down though, so why would we care if the demand has, in fact, gone up?

I don't know if it is undeniable that societal harm due to marijuana has gone down. In the US, legalization is not universal and is still relatively new.

My point is that legalization of something does not make demand go down.

Legalization of alcohol did not make demand go down. It did remove much of the organized crime from the industry but alcohol consumption has gone up. I'm writing that as a completely neutral statement, with zero assumptions about whether the net good/harm of alcohol in society has increased, decreased or remained constant.


My issue with legalization is that illegal prostitution of unwilling sex workers increases:

https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/

Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows.

The effect of legal prostitution on human trafficking inflows is stronger in high-income countries than middle-income countries. Because trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation requires that clients in a potential destination country have sufficient purchasing power, domestic supply acts as a constraint.

Criminalization of prostitution in Sweden resulted in the shrinking of the prostitution market and the decline of human trafficking inflows. Cross-country comparisons of Sweden with Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalized) and Germany (expanded legalization of prostitution) are consistent with the quantitative analysis, showing that trafficking inflows decreased with criminalization and increased with legalization.

The type of legalization of prostitution does not matter — it only matters whether prostitution is legal or not. Whether third-party involvement (persons who facilitate the prostitution businesses, i.e, “pimps”) is allowed or not does not have an effect on human trafficking inflows into a country. Legalization of prostitution itself is more important in explaining human trafficking than the type of legalization.

Democracies have a higher probability of increased human-trafficking inflows than non-democratic countries. There is a 13.4% higher probability of receiving higher inflows in a democratic country than otherwise.

While the harm to sex workers increases with criminalization, harm to persons trafficked for sex work decreases. There is a strong suggestion that a better way to go would be to go after pimps and customers, not prostitutes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X12001453#s0045

According to economic theory, there are two effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market and thus an increase in human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked prostitutes by favoring prostitutes who have legal residence in a country. Our quantitative empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported human trafficking inflows. We have corroborated this quantitative evidence with three brief case studies of Sweden, Denmark, and Germany. Consistent with the results from our quantitative analysis, the legalization of prostitution has led to substantial scale effects in these cases. Both the cross-country comparisons among Sweden, Denmark, and Germany, with their different prostitution regimes, as well as the temporal comparison within Germany before and after the further legalization of prostitution, suggest that any compositional changes in the share of trafficked individuals among all prostitutes have been small and the substitution effect has therefore been dominated by the scale effect. Naturally, this qualitative evidence is also somewhat tentative as there is no “smoking gun” proving that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect and that the legalization of prostitution definitely increases inward trafficking flows.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...lizing-prostitution-leads-to-more-trafficking

As a teenager, I worked in Germany’s legal sex industry. I was, like many girls in the club, underage; most of us were immigrants, nearly all of us had histories of trauma and abuse prior to our entry into commercial sex. Several of us had pimps despite working in a legal establishment; all of us used copious amounts of drugs and alcohol to get through each night.

Violence is inherent in the sex industry. Numerous studies show that between 70 percent and 90 percent of children and women who end up in commercial sex were sexually abused prior to entry. No other industry is dependent upon a regular supply of victims of trauma and abuse.

Legalization has spurred traffickers to recruit children and marginalized women to meet demand.
The presence of an adult sex industry increases both the rates of child sexual exploitation and trafficking. It may be true that some women in commercial sex exercised some level of informed choice, had other options to entering and have no histories of familial trauma, neglect or sexual abuse. But, these women are the minority and don’t represent the overwhelming majority of women, girls, boys and transgender youth, for whom the sex industry isn’t about choice but lack of choice.

The argument that legalizing prostitution makes it safer for women just hasn’t been borne out in countries implementing full legalization. In fact, legalization has spurred traffickers to recruit children and marginalized women to meet demand. Amsterdam, long touted as the model, recently started recognizing rates of trafficking into the country have increased and is beginning to address the enormous hub of trafficking and exploitation that it's created.

Criminalizing women and girls in commercial sex -- who are overwhelmingly victims of violence -- is not the solution, but neither is legalization. Focusing criminal justice resources on traffickers and buyers is a promising step, as is providing services, support and authentic options to women being bought and ensuring children and youth are treated as victims, a step taken by New York’s groundbreaking Safe Harbor Act in 2008.

To truly address trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation, it’s critical to address the systemic factors making girls and women so vulnerable -- poverty, gender inequity, racism, classism, child sexual abuse, lack of educational and employment opportunities for women and girls globally. Sanctioning an industry that preys upon some of the most marginalized and disenfranchised individuals in our society isn’t the answer.

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...safer/nevadas-legal-brothels-are-coercive-too

Well-meaning people who've never been commercially sexually exploited often think that legal brothels will protect the women in prostitution from pimps and violent johns. They are mistaken.

In the 10 years I worked in New York City’s sex industry, where the pimps were part of organized crime and could follow through on any threat, I met many women who'd experienced Nevada's legal brothels. They all preferred the New York sex industry.


If we legalize brothel and escort service pimping we'll only be giving these predators more power, while we help them protect their cash.
Women who worked in Nevada's legal brothels said they were like prisons where you have to turn tricks. Rimmed with high-security fencing and an electronic gate, they can look like a detention camp. The women live in lockdown conditions and can't leave the premises unless they're accompanied by a male pimp. Living and working in cramped, dark rooms, they're on call 24 hours a day. This is what happens when the law protects people who profit from commercial sexual exploitation. It’s the ideal business model. It's the best way to get a woman to turn as many tricks as possible.

Most of the women I knew in the brothels and escort services, had a history of trauma and abuse. I was homeless at the time I entered the life and, had multiple sclerosis. That vulnerability makes them even more easily victimized by pimps. And pimps don't stop being pimps when you legalize what they do. If we legalize brothels we'll only be giving these predators more power, while we help them protect their cash.

As the prostitution survivor and activist Natasha Falle has said, "Where there's high-track prostitutes, escorts, strippers and masseuses; there's pimp violence."
 
The problem as I see it has to do with RULE OF LAW (or simply following the law). So in a dictatorship, following the law is something citizens have to decide because they want to keep their families safe but ultimately eventually they ought to revolt against the dictator and the means to do that is by breaking laws he/she has imposed on them. We, however, are not in a dictatorship. We are in a democracy (relatively speaking). The vast majority of laws are not dictatorial and the people have a lot of sway, perhaps not as much as we ought to because of various undue influences, but for the most part it's a fair system.

Some laws in a representative democracy are simply going to be controversial. The way citizens ought to act most of the time in such cases is to follow the law. So, if some conservative kook thinks that the "death tax" is unfair, they shouldn't not be paying it. They ought to ensure the law is followed. BUT, they ought to continue to make arguments and continue to be politically active against what they perceive as the highest priority laws they think are unfair. Call representative. Political ads, campaigns, protests. Discussions. Advocacy. ETC.

So I think in a representative democracy, this is the default position: one ought to follow the laws and where there is a disagreement, there ought to be political activism, even if it's just voting for the "right" people. But as with anything, maybe there are some exceptions, such as life and death situations. Prostitutes who may need work can generally speaking be unemployed or on welfare, but conservatives have limited those options. So, perhaps, there are some cases of some few street prostitutes who do this to survive. IMO, that's their prerogative. So, in my opinion that's an exception.

I am just not seeing the same level of argument here for Derec and BackPage, nor to call a representative democracy Fascists. I mean, one thing we heard is that Ugly Men if they don't have prostitutes are at-risk to commit offenses against women. It wasn't stated like that, more like the probability of rape goes up without prostitution, but it's actually what it means. So, when I hear that I cringe because it is telling me there are individuals who have some kind of entitlement to break the law already and if you don't give them what they want, they will break the law even more and hurt people. The root of the problem is the lack of empathy and sense of entitlement, not the restriction of a "service." So, what if women just all together one day stopped needing to be prostitutes and there were NONE. By the premises used in this scenarios already, it means some of these individuals would resort to rape. They clearly need some kind of mental rehabilitation, like to learn that empathy and be less entitled, then, and that's the conclusion.

They deserve little sympathy. Likewise, for persons making a business that has made $500 million by knowingly being involved in child/teen prostitution...and that means BackPage. BackPage is hardly a victim, I mean literally "hardly" because maybe they are very slightly. But since they were engaging in such practices, thumbing their noses at representative democracy, feeling entitled to not only engage in supporting prostitution, but also CHILD/TEEN prostitution, it is completely unfair to classify everyone else who thinks they ought to have consequences as Fascists.

Now the only real other issue here is whether two consenting adults who are both making well-thought-out, rational decisions (i.e. one is not addicted to drugs or on crack etc) ought to be able to engage in a financial transaction for sex. I think the answer is probably yes, but there's a big discussion for it because of all the side issues to include empirical studies and so forth. Keeping in mind that right now it's not legal and both Derec and BackPage ought to be following the laws of the land, generally speaking.

ETA: I will add one side issue. That is the issue of ex post facto. In the case of BackPage, I think they're guilty of heinous offenses of breaking the law and ought to have some consequences. Somehow a new law is being used as part of this. I don't think the new law ought to be used for crimes committed a year ago and more and I think that laws already existing are enough for convicting them on at least some of the charges. I do not think that laws ought to back-apply, even if the law itself is not about a criminal offense but how to handle them. I take a pretty broad approach to how I think the principle of ex post facto ought to be applied to rights, even of criminals.
 
The problem as I see it has to do with RULE OF LAW (or simply following the law). So in a dictatorship, following the law is something citizens have to decide because they want to keep their families safe but ultimately eventually they ought to revolt against the dictator and the means to do that is by breaking laws he/she has imposed on them. We, however, are not in a dictatorship. We are in a democracy (relatively speaking). The vast majority of laws are not dictatorial and the people have a lot of sway, perhaps not as much as we ought to because of various undue influences, but for the most part it's a fair system.

Some laws in a representative democracy are simply going to be controversial. The way citizens ought to act most of the time in such cases is to follow the law. So, if some conservative kook thinks that the "death tax" is unfair, they shouldn't not be paying it. They ought to ensure the law is followed. BUT, they ought to continue to make arguments and continue to be politically active against what they perceive as the highest priority laws they think are unfair. Call representative. Political ads, campaigns, protests. Discussions. Advocacy. ETC.

So I think in a representative democracy, this is the default position: one ought to follow the laws and where there is a disagreement, there ought to be political activism, even if it's just voting for the "right" people. But as with anything, maybe there are some exceptions, such as life and death situations. Prostitutes who may need work can generally speaking be unemployed or on welfare, but conservatives have limited those options. So, perhaps, there are some cases of some few street prostitutes who do this to survive. IMO, that's their prerogative. So, in my opinion that's an exception.

I am just not seeing the same level of argument here for Derec and BackPage, nor to call a representative democracy Fascists. I mean, one thing we heard is that Ugly Men if they don't have prostitutes are at-risk to commit offenses against women. It wasn't stated like that, more like the probability of rape goes up without prostitution, but it's actually what it means. So, when I hear that I cringe because it is telling me there are individuals who have some kind of entitlement to break the law already and if you don't give them what they want, they will break the law even more and hurt people. The root of the problem is the lack of empathy and sense of entitlement, not the restriction of a "service." So, what if women just all together one day stopped needing to be prostitutes and there were NONE. By the premises used in this scenarios already, it means some of these individuals would resort to rape. They clearly need some kind of mental rehabilitation, like to learn that empathy and be less entitled, then, and that's the conclusion.

They deserve little sympathy. Likewise, for persons making a business that has made $500 million by knowingly being involved in child/teen prostitution...and that means BackPage. BackPage is hardly a victim, I mean literally "hardly" because maybe they are very slightly. But since they were engaging in such practices, thumbing their noses at representative democracy, feeling entitled to not only engage in supporting prostitution, but also CHILD/TEEN prostitution, it is completely unfair to classify everyone else who thinks they ought to have consequences as Fascists.

Now the only real other issue here is whether two consenting adults who are both making well-thought-out, rational decisions (i.e. one is not addicted to drugs or on crack etc) ought to be able to engage in a financial transaction for sex. I think the answer is probably yes, but there's a big discussion for it because of all the side issues to include empirical studies and so forth. Keeping in mind that right now it's not legal and both Derec and BackPage ought to be following the laws of the land, generally speaking.

ETA: I will add one side issue. That is the issue of ex post facto. In the case of BackPage, I think they're guilty of heinous offenses of breaking the law and ought to have some consequences. Somehow a new law is being used as part of this. I don't think the new law ought to be used for crimes committed a year ago and more and I think that laws already existing are enough for convicting them on at least some of the charges. I do not think that laws ought to back-apply, even if the law itself is not about a criminal offense but how to handle them. I take a pretty broad approach to how I think the principle of ex post facto ought to be applied to rights, even of criminals.

Imposing limits on the actions of citizens may be considered tyrannical, but to my mind fostering an environment where the exploitation of sex workers is enabled is tyranny as well, just of a different stripe.

It's honestly kind of amazing to me that people are naive enough to believe that a government which is already seemingly incapable of properly regulating everyday industries is somehow going to regulate legalized sex-work in a way that ensures the rights, wellbeing and basic human dignity of the PST is ensured and protected. I almost find that blind faith endearing.
 
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