Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[Jimmy Higgins]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

Really, there are no "good ideas" when you have two assholes pointing a gun at you.

 

[Jarhyn]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

Really, there are no "good ideas" when you have two assholes pointing a gun at you.

Especially when they are chasing you, a person on foot, in a truck.

 

[TSwizzle]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

Really, there are no "good ideas" when you have two assholes pointing a gun at you.

Well I think the worst idea is to run toward them. That wouldn't be my first, second or next to last choice.

 

[laughing dog]

Really, there are no "good ideas" when you have two assholes pointing a gun at you.

Well I think the worst idea is to run toward them. That wouldn't be my first, second or next to last choice.

Whether or not it is a good choice or not is not terribly relevant, because none of the choices ought to result in death.

 

[Trausti]

They chased him, denied him his liberty, and took out guns, creating a high risk situation where someone was likely to be seriously hurt. Is it 2nd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter?

 

[J842P]

They chased him, denied him his liberty, and took out guns, creating a high risk situation where someone was likely to be seriously hurt. Is it 2nd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter?

That seems like a good question for someone who practices law in Georgia. I have no idea how this isn't felony murder, though. Chasing someone down like that has to be assault, and then that initial crime resulted in someone's death (even if that wasn't their original intention).

 

[J842P]

Well, you always have the right to defend yourself but it's not always the best strategy and can work against you.

That may be the case. Say, in a burglary, I would say it isn't in your interest to try to confront the intruder. But if you do, and the intruder kills you, that intruder is still a murderer.

 

[Patooka]

All these arguments for and against what happened? They need to be made in a fucking court. This is vigilante bullshit from wannabes who saw one too many Charles Bronson movies.

I also wonder how the former police officer feels about civilians taking the law into their own hands.

 

[Trausti]

It’s not felony murder. That’s when someone is killed during the course of a felony and all involved are held equally culpable. Like the get away driver for a bank robbery when someone is shot. He’s got the same criminal liability as the one who made the shot.

 

[Jarhyn]

He had a right to defend himself. They had no right to chase him down and assault him with a deadly weapon. It doesn't matter if his retaliation and self defense was ill-informed, it's still fucking murder, just like if a woman wears high heels and a short dress while walking down an dark alley in a seedy part of town, it's still fucking rape if someone rapes her.

Perhaps that impacts how I view his intelligence (or hers, in the rape hypothetical), but it doesn't impact one bit how I feel about the murderer (or the rapist), who is still also every bit as guilty of being a human piece of shit.

The fact that for some people it DOES impact how they view the human piece of shit just tells to me that those people empathize with and which to apologise with aforementioned pieces of shit.

 

[J842P]

It’s not felony murder. That’s when someone is killed during the course of a felony and all involved are held equally culpable. Like the get away driver for a bank robbery when someone is shot. He’s got the same criminal liability as the one who made the shot.

Right, that's exactly my point: they were committing a crime already, and that crime resulted in someone's death. So maybe even if grabbing at someone's shotgun would normally prevent you from being charged with murder, they would still get felony murder because they feloniously assaulted the man.

I'm not a lawyer, obviously.

 

[Jarhyn]

It’s not felony murder. That’s when someone is killed during the course of a felony and all involved are held equally culpable. Like the get away driver for a bank robbery when someone is shot. He’s got the same criminal liability as the one who made the shot.

Right, that's exactly my point: they were committing a crime already, and that crime resulted in someone's death. So maybe even if grabbing at someone's shotgun would normally prevent you from being charged with murder, they would still get felony murder because they feloniously assaulted the man.

I'm not a lawyer, obviously.

No, you are spot on. See my previous post that got dropped at the end of the previous page: someone being an idiot doesn't forgive someone else being a criminal.

Just because someone is in a seedy part of town wearing a short red dress does not give license for a rapist to rape them. The rapist is still a rapist even if the person they raped is an idiot, and anyone who says it does is similarly a rape apologist who is very likely salivating over the thought of they themselves cornering the victim and being the rapist, living their sick fantasies vicariously through the freedom they would give the rapist.

Likewise, for murder, even if I make bad decisions, it doesn't in any way change the fact that the other party decided to assault me with a deadly weapon and end my life. My decisions in response to another person's unethical actions do not make their actions any more ethical. Hell if I walked out of my house and cut down the first random person I saw and I later learned it was time traveling Hitler, I'm still a fucking murderer.

 

[Trausti]

It’s not felony murder. That’s when someone is killed during the course of a felony and all involved are held equally culpable. Like the get away driver for a bank robbery when someone is shot. He’s got the same criminal liability as the one who made the shot.

Right, that's exactly my point: they were committing a crime already, and that crime resulted in someone's death. So maybe even if grabbing at someone's shotgun would normally prevent you from being charged with murder, they would still get felony murder because they feloniously assaulted the man.

I'm not a lawyer, obviously.

But what felony were they committing? Felony chasing? If they hadn’t killed him, what charges? Anyway, why bother with that when you’ve got 2nd degree murder or manslaughter available?

 

[J842P]

It’s not felony murder. That’s when someone is killed during the course of a felony and all involved are held equally culpable. Like the get away driver for a bank robbery when someone is shot. He’s got the same criminal liability as the one who made the shot.

Right, that's exactly my point: they were committing a crime already, and that crime resulted in someone's death. So maybe even if grabbing at someone's shotgun would normally prevent you from being charged with murder, they would still get felony murder because they feloniously assaulted the man.

I'm not a lawyer, obviously.

But what felony were they committing? Felony chasing? If they hadn’t killed him, what charges? Anyway, why bother with that when you’ve got 2nd degree murder or manslaughter available?

Assault, that is all clearly assault. Assault is defined as any action that a reasonable person would feel intimidated by, so one example would be someone blocking your movement, or even indicating they are blocking your movement.

To be considered felony assault generally actual bodily harm has to occur (so assault and battery), or an assault in which a weapon was used as part of the assault.

I think chasing down someone with guns and cutting off their exits, essentially corralling them, clearly counts.

My point was in response to people who were objecting that because he tried to grab at their shotgun, it could no longer be a criminal offense (although maybe civilly liable).

I find that claim totally absurd, but I was taking the assumption for granted for the sake of argument.

 

[Toni]

I've held conceal carry permits in 3 states now and EVERY class you sit through makes it clear that you DO NOT grab your guns and pursue anyone. Even if Arbery was actually guilty of a burglary, I'm pretty sure that's not punishable by death. This is a murder.

In the video it can be seen that Arbery grabbed the shotgun. Not murder. Manslaughter at most.

Really? So if two armed guys chase you down the street while you are out for a job and you grab a shotgun to keep from being shot with it, but you still get shot, it's manslaughter?????

Or only if the dead guy is black and the guys with the shotguns are white?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

If you see two guys in the middle of the street holding guns, wouldn't you start running in the opposite direction rather than towards them ?

Don't you guys say they're guilty even when they're running away? The fuck does that have to do with anything?

 

[ZiprHead]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

Hey Trausti. Why no admonition of racism when your compatriot uses the r word?

 

[Arctish]

Really, there are no "good ideas" when you have two assholes pointing a gun at you.

Well I think the worst idea is to run toward them. That wouldn't be my first, second or next to last choice.

Arbery was running away from them.

The McMichaels had already cut him off with their truck. He turned around and ran in a different direction. They cut him off again. The OP article says police reports indicate there was another person in a second vehicle pursuing Arbery as well. So if you are going to criticize Arbery's choices, keep in mind he was suddenly confronted with 3 people in two separate trucks, at least two of whom were armed, coordinating their efforts to detain (capture? assault? kidnap?) him at gunpoint.

 

[TSwizzle]

If you see two guys in the middle of the street holding guns, wouldn't you start running in the opposite direction rather than towards them ?

Don't you guys say they're guilty even when they're running away? The fuck does that have to do with anything?

“You guys” ? “They’re running away” ?

Anyway, it’s maybe just me but I would not have run toward them, I would have taken off in another direction.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

If you see two guys in the middle of the street holding guns, wouldn't you start running in the opposite direction rather than towards them ?

Don't you guys say they're guilty even when they're running away? The fuck does that have to do with anything?

“You guys” ? “They’re running away” ?

Anyway, it’s maybe just me but I would not have run toward them, I would have taken off in another direction.

You guys = people who always take the side of the aggressors.