Black Opinions Don't Matter

[Jimmy Higgins]

While "all lives matter" is a position of the white supremacists it is also the position of those who find "black lives matter" to be racist. Once you consider crime rates blacks are not being shot disproportionately--the whole basis for it is false.

Why do you think that blacks have a higher crime rate than white people?

Derec believes that it is genetic. Do you agree?

I have repeatedly said it's a cultural problem, not a genetic one. Urban poor environments are a hotbed of criminality and they have far more blacks than average.

That isn't cultural, that is economic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Maybe the white people could make signs and chant, "All Lives Matter". On second thought,...maybe not.

White people declaring all lives matter generally mean that lives of people like them matter more. Black lives didn’t matter when black people were placed in chains in the hulls of ships, sailor thousands of miles from their homes, forbidden to speak their own languages, have their own names, marry, read and write, were beaten, raped, murdered with impunity, were bought and sold like cattle, were forbidden to drink from the same fountains, go to the same schools or hospitals, VOTE, marry whom they chose. Black lives didn’t matter when crosses were burned in front of their homes, when their churches were burned, when their children murdered. Their lives didn’t matter when they were directed into substandard housing and substandard loans and substandard schools and substandard jobs. They didn’t matter when Tamir Rice was murdered by police officers or when George Floyd begged for mercy with a cop’s knee on his neck. Or thousands of other times.

Don’t go claiming that all lives matter until the lives of black people actually matter enough that they are treated as though they matter as much as white people.

While "all lives matter" is a position of the white supremacists it is also the position of those who find "black lives matter" to be racist.

It'd only be racist if they meant "Only black lives matter", but what it really means is that "black lives matter too".

Once you consider crime rates blacks are not being shot disproportionately--the whole basis for it is false.

Not when taking into account whether people getting shot are armed or not.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Maybe the white people could make signs and chant, "All Lives Matter". On second thought,...maybe not.

Well, we know that isn't believed by the ALM group because we can't even convince the anti-mask'ers (awful large overlap with ALMers), to wear masks to help protect the lives of all people.

 

[ronburgundy]

This is at least in part an instance of a general phenomena of a person from outside a group agreeing with that group's arguments/perspective being given more weight than an in-group member agreeing with their own group. This is b/c it's assumed (often wrongly) that the outsider is less biased or even naturally biased against the group and thus their agreement with them must be compelled by strong evidence or ethical principles.

Candice Owens is an example of it happening in racial reverse, where she'd be a nobody if she was white, but the alt-right can't try harder to make her famous because she's a black woman (a two-fer) supporting their misogynist and white supremacist dogma. As in Owens case, it's often a bogus assumption, especially when the outgroup person does stand to personally profit by agreeing with the group. And it happens all over outside of racial issues too. You see it with gender, you see it with the press that a so-called "atheist" gets when they convert to theism or attack atheists, etc.

It's the flipside of when an ingroup member attacks their own group it is given more weight than the uninteresting and predictable outgroup member attacking the group.

 

[Elixir]

....when an ingroup member attacks their own group it is given more weight than the uninteresting and predictable outgroup member attacking the group. .

Who gives them more weight? Only the outgroup? If we use "Republicans Against Trump" as an example, I know of no Trumpanzees who are swayed, but lots and lots of people who have always been against Trump ballyhoo the change of the R.A.T.s' opinions.

 

[J842P]

....when an ingroup member attacks their own group it is given more weight than the uninteresting and predictable outgroup member attacking the group. .

Who gives them more weight? Only the outgroup? If we use "Republicans Against Trump" as an example, I know of no Trumpanzees who are swayed, but lots and lots of people who have always been against Trump ballyhoo the change of the R.A.T.s' opinions.

Yeah, the people attacking Trump immediately become the outgroup.

 

[ronburgundy]

....when an ingroup member attacks their own group it is given more weight than the uninteresting and predictable outgroup member attacking the group. .

Who gives them more weight? Only the outgroup? If we use "Republicans Against Trump" as an example, I know of no Trumpanzees who are swayed, but lots and lots of people who have always been against Trump ballyhoo the change of the R.A.T.s' opinions.

The outgroup and neutral people tend to give it more weight, and the ingroup give it more attention and press b/c they know it will be given more weight. Not only do people do it with personal opinions and anecdotal evidence, but with scientific research, such as when formal studies, even after peer review, are given more or less weight depending on whether the researchers or the funders have any ties to the "ingroup" that might motivate them to prefer the conclusions. It's a matter of considering source biases and is actually a rational approach to information processing in general, but it can be abused and manipulated and can happen to align with racist biases if the "ingroup" in question is a common target of racist assumptions of untrustworthiness.

 

[Emily Lake]

White people declaring all lives matter generally mean that lives of people like them matter more. Black lives didn’t matter when black people were placed in chains in the hulls of ships, sailor thousands of miles from their homes, forbidden to speak their own languages, have their own names, marry, read and write, were beaten, raped, murdered with impunity, were bought and sold like cattle, were forbidden to drink from the same fountains, go to the same schools or hospitals, VOTE, marry whom they chose. Black lives didn’t matter when crosses were burned in front of their homes, when their churches were burned, when their children murdered. Their lives didn’t matter when they were directed into substandard housing and substandard loans and substandard schools and substandard jobs. They didn’t matter when Tamir Rice was murdered by police officers or when George Floyd begged for mercy with a cop’s knee on his neck. Or thousands of other times.

Don’t go claiming that all lives matter until the lives of black people actually matter enough that they are treated as though they matter as much as white people.

Based on your logic, I think I should hate men.

 

[Emily Lake]

It'd only be racist if they meant "Only black lives matter", but what it really means is that "black lives matter too".

It would alleviate a lot of unnecessary defensiveness if they would just alter the slogan to be "Black Lives Matter Too".

 

[Angry Floof]

It'd only be racist if they meant "Only black lives matter", but what it really means is that "black lives matter too".

It would alleviate a lot of unnecessary defensiveness if they would just alter the slogan to be "Black Lives Matter Too".

No, it wouldn't. Bigots will still be bigots.

 

[Harry Bosch]

It'd only be racist if they meant "Only black lives matter", but what it really means is that "black lives matter too".

It would alleviate a lot of unnecessary defensiveness if they would just alter the slogan to be "Black Lives Matter Too".

No, it wouldn't. Bigots will still be bigots.

I have to agree here. I mean, I can understand people understanding the term last year. I had a hard time with it also then. But BLM has been explained over and over and over. If you don't get it by now, you're either mentally challenged or bigoted.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It'd only be racist if they meant "Only black lives matter", but what it really means is that "black lives matter too".

It would alleviate a lot of unnecessary defensiveness if they would just alter the slogan to be "Black Lives Matter Too".

Blacks made a stupid assumption white people would understand the obvious context. Of course, white people also panicked over Beyonce's song Formation thinking it was about white people (because white people always think it is about them), so the Blacks should have known better.

But... to be fair, had Blacks called it "Black lives matter too and we are protesting the unjust killings of unarmed blacks by police, not some radical socialist group intent on ending the suburbs", white people would have been all like... 'Sounds like they are hiding something'.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

White people declaring all lives matter generally mean that lives of people like them matter more. Black lives didn’t matter when black people were placed in chains in the hulls of ships, sailor thousands of miles from their homes, forbidden to speak their own languages, have their own names, marry, read and write, were beaten, raped, murdered with impunity, were bought and sold like cattle, were forbidden to drink from the same fountains, go to the same schools or hospitals, VOTE, marry whom they chose. Black lives didn’t matter when crosses were burned in front of their homes, when their churches were burned, when their children murdered. Their lives didn’t matter when they were directed into substandard housing and substandard loans and substandard schools and substandard jobs. They didn’t matter when Tamir Rice was murdered by police officers or when George Floyd begged for mercy with a cop’s knee on his neck. Or thousands of other times.

Don’t go claiming that all lives matter until the lives of black people actually matter enough that they are treated as though they matter as much as white people.

Based on your logic, I think I should hate men.

Only based on your tortured logic of what she said.

*Unarmed black male killed by police*
*Blacks protest*
White people: Why are you protesting?
Black people: We are protesting the unjustified killing of unarmed blacks by police.
White people: But per percentage of crime, blacks aren't killed more by police than white people.
Black people: Those white dudes had guns!
White people: That is a matter of opinion.

 

[SimpleDon]

While "all lives matter" is a position of the white supremacists it is also the position of those who find "black lives matter" to be racist. Once you consider crime rates blacks are not being shot disproportionately--the whole basis for it is false.

Why do you think that blacks have a higher crime rate than white people?

Derec believes that it is genetic. Do you agree?

I have repeatedly said it's a cultural problem, not a genetic one. Urban poor environments are a hotbed of criminality and they have far more blacks than average.

I didn't say that you believed that, I just asked.

If you believe that it is a cultural issue I assume that you accept that it is up to the culture to correct the problem. I don't see how you could expect an individual to correct a problem imposed on him by the culture in which he lives. And it is inescapable that the culture that most imposed the problems on blacks is 400 years of white culture, one that they still live in and one that still oppresses them today. This is the basic message behind BLM. They agree with you that it is an issue of culture, not genetics.

And yet from previous discussions, you seem to believe that the problem of poverty is not a simple problem of economics, that the poor aren't paid enough for the work that they do, but that it is a problem of flaws in the character of the poor. That we have a true market for labor, that people are paid what they are worth to the economy and not by what they can or can't negotiate, but by some magical mechanism that you can't explain. Short form: You blame the poor for poverty.

 

[Emily Lake]

White people declaring all lives matter generally mean that lives of people like them matter more. Black lives didn’t matter when black people were placed in chains in the hulls of ships, sailor thousands of miles from their homes, forbidden to speak their own languages, have their own names, marry, read and write, were beaten, raped, murdered with impunity, were bought and sold like cattle, were forbidden to drink from the same fountains, go to the same schools or hospitals, VOTE, marry whom they chose. Black lives didn’t matter when crosses were burned in front of their homes, when their churches were burned, when their children murdered. Their lives didn’t matter when they were directed into substandard housing and substandard loans and substandard schools and substandard jobs. They didn’t matter when Tamir Rice was murdered by police officers or when George Floyd begged for mercy with a cop’s knee on his neck. Or thousands of other times.

Don’t go claiming that all lives matter until the lives of black people actually matter enough that they are treated as though they matter as much as white people.

Based on your logic, I think I should hate men.

Only based on your tortured logic of what she said.

There's that whole women being oppressed and treated as second class citizens (when they were lucky enough to be considered citizens in the first place rather than appendages or property) for thousands of years, with continued disparity in treatment continuing today. All of that perpetrated by men against women. All those thousands of years where women's voices didn't matter over and over and over and over... and still get shushed and asked to calm down and wait their turn today.

If we visit the sins of the distant ancestors upon the children of today... men have a LOT to answer for, and women as a whole should be justifiably angry in retaliating against men.

*Unarmed black male killed by police*
*Blacks protest*
White people: Why are you protesting?
Black people: We are protesting the unjustified killing of unarmed blacks by police.
White people: But per percentage of crime, blacks aren't killed more by police than white people.
Black people: Those white dudes had guns!
White people: That is a matter of opinion.

Yep, all the white people, totally. White people are trash.

 

[Emily Lake]

For the record... No minority (even when it's not a numerical minority, even when it's half the damned population) has opinions that matter until they convince a reasonable portion of the majority that their opinions have merit. It's not nice, it's not "fair", but it's how the spread of ideas works.

 

[laughing dog]

It'd only be racist if they meant "Only black lives matter", but what it really means is that "black lives matter too".

It would alleviate a lot of unnecessary defensiveness if they would just alter the slogan to be "Black Lives Matter Too".

Nah, there are just too many snowflakes out there, just ready to melt over the slightest imaginary hint of something that upsets them.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have repeatedly said it's a cultural problem, not a genetic one. Urban poor environments are a hotbed of criminality and they have far more blacks than average.

And I've repeatedly said that this is a bad reason to discriminate against those that have risen out. As have many others.

I don't advocate discriminating against those who have risen out. It's just I won't pretend there isn't a problem with those who haven't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

While "all lives matter" is a position of the white supremacists it is also the position of those who find "black lives matter" to be racist. Once you consider crime rates blacks are not being shot disproportionately--the whole basis for it is false.

You've been shown, multiple times, that this is bullshit, yet you keep saying it.

The "rebuttal" has basically been that if you don't find discrimination in law enforcement that you're hiding it. Sorry, but the murder rate says otherwise, regardless of the truckloads of bovine excrement thrown about to try to pretend otherwise.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have repeatedly said it's a cultural problem, not a genetic one. Urban poor environments are a hotbed of criminality and they have far more blacks than average.

That isn't cultural, that is economic.

Cultural--you see a different dynamic in the rural poor.