Breakdown In Civil Order

[TSwizzle]

But I don't want to feed into your phony narrative that penal or policing policies are what motivate crime in the first place, as I do not think that is true.

It’s not about motivation. It’s about letting violent, repeat offenders out of jail with no bail who go on to kill innocent people. Which you deliberately sidestep.

 

[Politesse]

But I don't want to feed into your phony narrative that penal or policing policies are what motivate crime in the first place, as I do not think that is true.

It’s not about motivation. It’s about letting violent, repeat offenders out of jail with no bail who go on to kill innocent people. Which you deliberately sidestep.

Ah, so if the governor were a Republican, no one would ever be let out of jail, so there would be no crimes?

 

[ZiprHead]

From the Daily Mail link:

Had the judge looked into Fulk's criminal past he would've uncovered a litany of cases including assault, aggravated battery, attempted assault and disorderly conduct in neighboring Idaho.

Seems to me that it is the prosecutor's job to present the case the perp should remain in custody or get a high bail.

 

[Politesse]

From the Daily Mail link:

Had the judge looked into Fulk's criminal past he would've uncovered a litany of cases including assault, aggravated battery, attempted assault and disorderly conduct in neighboring Idaho.

Seems to me that it is the prosecutor's job to present the case the perp should remain in custody or get a high bail.

Well, that can't be right. Idaho is a Republican state, there aren't any violent crimes there. Or if there were, you couldn't have a "history" of them or you would still be in jail. Right?

 

[ZiprHead]

From the Daily Mail link:

Had the judge looked into Fulk's criminal past he would've uncovered a litany of cases including assault, aggravated battery, attempted assault and disorderly conduct in neighboring Idaho.

Seems to me that it is the prosecutor's job to present the case the perp should remain in custody or get a high bail.

Well, that can't be right. Idaho is a Republican state, there aren't any violent crimes there. Or if there were, you couldn't have a "history" of them or you would still be in jail. Right?

Maybe he escaped.

 

[TSwizzle]

Ah, so if the governor were a Republican, no one would ever be let out of jail, so there would be no crimes?

Doesn’t it bother you that a violent criminal beat someone to death on a public street in one of the USA most famous cities? This was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal had been detained rather than let out for his earlier crimes.

 

[Politesse]

Ah, so if the governor were a Republican, no one would ever be let out of jail, so there would be no crimes?

Doesn’t it bother you that a violent criminal beat someone to death on a public street in one of the USA most famous cities? This was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal had been detained rather than let out for his earlier crimes.

Of course it does, that's fucking awful.

I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though. Yeah sure, after the fact you've found a way to blame the incident on "the system", cheerily cherry-picking only those elements of the incident that seem to confirm your worldview. But I have been provided no reason whatsoever to believe that Republican policies at the state level would have prevented this crime. You always wiggle out of giving me any specifics, in fact, on what elements of the legal system you want to reform, how, why, and what evidence supports it. You just want us all to clutch our pearls at "how bad things are today" and then give neo-fascists a blank check to supposedly fix it all at the cost of our civil rights. Even though the states they already control are pretty, you know, obviously crap.

 

[steve_bank]

In a news segment a black woman from Ca was complaining Nigerian immigrant womem were rising faster in the corporate world than American birn blacks. Could it be attitude and culture pay an important role? I have heard blacks in Seattle compain about black African immigrants. From what I have seen they tend o do well.

Yup, this is the damning data--black immigrants on average fare much better than American-born blacks. If it really were discrimination we wouldn't see that.

African immigrants, especially from West Africa, tend to be the creme de la creme. Very good chance the successful ones are Igbo. Igbo were traders and heavily involved in the slave trade. Ancestry matters more than people like to believe.

I wold not say that. What I see personally in Seattle is a mix. Some go to college, some get a trade or go into nursing, some get regular jobs. There are some who are anti American but they are few. There are some who choose to bum around, also few from what I have seen. Crime and drugs.

The administrator in the assisted living place I was in for a while was a Nigerian woman immigrant. Came over when she was young, went to college, worked her way up in social services and health care administration in Ca and moved to Seattle.

Like I said black African immigrants I have seen and known have the same spectrum as any other group.

I'd say the same for Hispanics or Asians. My senior building is multicultural. China, Japan, Thailand, Mexico, Vietnam, Russia and others. They all came over and worked.

 

[bilby]

This was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal had been detained rather than let out for his earlier crimes

Was it?

The fact is that longer jail terms increase recidivism rates, so it's more in keeping with observed reality to suggest that this was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal not been detained for so long for his earlier crimes.

Of course, had he received a life sentence and never been released at all, his victim would likely have been another prisoner, or a prison worker. And he, and all the millions of other lifers, would be costing taxpayers vast sums to keep incarcerated just in case they might commit crimes if released.

If you want to pay to keep over half your population in jail, because you fear reoffending by anyone who has ever been convicted, then you are an idiot.

If your objective is to reduce crime, you need to reduce the known causes of crime - which include incarceration for long periods.

Short, comfortable prison sentences in prisons with good protection for inmates against each other, are vastly more effective in reducing recidivism than long harsh sentences in shitty hellholes. Non-custodial punishments are more effective still.

 

[steve_bank]

Here in Seattle catch and release of violent offenders is recognized as an issue.

Police are angry because they do the work and risk injury bringing in violent offenders and they are released commuting more assaults and murders. This is not hyperbole, it is becoming routine reporting.

Bussiness is angry. Peopleknow the risk of capture and jail time are reduced and are getting bolder . Busnesses have closed or forced out of business by repeated damage of property.

People are angry because hey faced increased risk of assault.

Part f it was the previous DA and mayor, and the city council.

Iur new mayor ad DA are doing te right things but the whole they inherited is deep.

The last mayor and the progressive city council destroyed te Seattle police department. Reduced funding aka defund police and lacj=k of any verbal support durng a long period of civil unrest and riots.

Seattle can't find anyone interested in the police chief job. Same with recruits for SPD. More officers are leaving then being hired.

Who wnats to work on SPD when the progressive city council treats you like an enemy.

 

[TSwizzle]

Ah, so if the governor were a Republican, no one would ever be let out of jail, so there would be no crimes?

Doesn’t it bother you that a violent criminal beat someone to death on a public street in one of the USA most famous cities? This was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal had been detained rather than let out for his earlier crimes.

Of course it does, that's fucking awful.

It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.

I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

 

[bilby]

Here in Seattle catch and release of violent offenders is recognized as an issue.

Recognised by criminologists, or recognised by ignorant and emotional citizens with an Internet connection and access to Fox News?

Being angry isn't evidence that you are not badly mistaken.

 

[bilby]

Ah, so if the governor were a Republican, no one would ever be let out of jail, so there would be no crimes?

Doesn’t it bother you that a violent criminal beat someone to death on a public street in one of the USA most famous cities? This was an avoidable incident had the violent criminal had been detained rather than let out for his earlier crimes.

Of course it does, that's fucking awful.

It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.

I don't see any evidence that you, well, have a point, though.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

Your assumption of a causal link isn't supported by any evidence, indeed it is contradicted by the evidence.

Your emotional needs aren't a good basis for public policy. It's better to reduce crime, than it is to be seen to be active in attempting to reduce crime.

"...the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them." - Sir Robert Peel, 1829.

 

[Politesse]

It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.

I'm more interested in solving social problems, if possible, than engaging in partisan politics. Posting story after story of the latest outrage does nothing to accomplish this end, so I find this thread and most of its contents extremely irritating. I throw a lot of my personal time and money into trying to solve my own communities' problems, and it's part of the very same SF Bay Area you claim is a crime-strewn wasteland. Both an untrue stereotype, and an unhelpful contribution even if ti weren't. It's folks like you that picket new homeless shelters and demand that mental health services be defunded, yet cry bloody murder against the DA when a homeless person starts a brush fire or assaults someone. I have lost my patience with the contradictory, irritating authoritarian cult on the Right, and their insistence that discriminating against all the people on their hate list (which necessarily includes my partner and I for some reason, read: Christian theocratic bullshit) will somehow restore social balance.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

So what is the solution? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to end the practice of early release? If so, how do you propose funding the enormous expansion of our already overburdened jail and prison system that this would require? And where is your evidence that this would even help?

 

[TSwizzle]

It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.

I'm more interested in solving social problems, if possible, than engaging in partisan politics.

Male bovine excrement. Your response has been to consistently whine about republicans.

Posting story after story of the latest outrage does nothing to accomplish this end, so I find this thread and most of its contents extremely irritating.

Read that back to yourself, “story after story “. Why would there be “story after story”? Could it possibly be that certain policies are an abject failure?

I throw a lot of my personal time and money into trying to solve my own communities' problems, and it's part of the very same SF Bay Area you claim is a crime-strewn wasteland.

Is it just me though? Am I the only person that complains about the miserable conditions? Why do you think the DA was recalled?

Both an untrue stereotype, and an unhelpful contribution even if ti weren't. It's folks like you that picket new homeless shelters and demand that mental health services be defunded,

Really? Link to a post of mine where I have said such a thing.

yet cry bloody murder against the DA when a homeless person starts a brush fire or assaults someone. I have lost my patience with the contradictory, irritating authoritarian cult on the Right, and their insistence that discriminating against all the people on their hate list (which necessarily includes my partner and I for some reason, read: Christian theocratic bullshit) will somehow restore social balance.

Waaaaaahhhh, more whining.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

So what is the solution? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to end the practice of early release? If so, how do you propose funding the enormous expansion of our already overburdened jail and prison system that this would require? And where is your evidence that this would even help?

I would appreciate if violent criminals were detained rather than let loose to quickly reoffend and kill someone like what happened in the case I posted.

 

[lpetrich]

I'm always tempted to just start posting every horrible crime that happens in Alabama or Florida and what have you for a week, just to make the point that crimes happen everywhere regardless of who the governor is.

Good idea. I'd like to see that.

 

[lpetrich]

I think that we should save jails for violent offenders.

Here is a very simple way to make plenty of room for such people. Stop the drug warring and release everybody imprisoned for minor drug offenses. We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.

 

[lpetrich]

It’s difficult to tell because all you do is whine about republicans.

... It's folks like you that picket new homeless shelters and demand that mental health services be defunded, yet cry bloody murder against the DA when a homeless person starts a brush fire or assaults someone.

I notice that after mass shootings, some right-wingers complain about inadequate mental-health services. But these are the same people who don't want to fund such services.

My point is that violent criminals are released early or no bail and go on to commit devastating acts of violence on the public. It’s happening quite frequently here in Los Angeles but also other major cities.

So what is the solution? Spell it out for me. Are you trying to end the practice of early release? If so, how do you propose funding the enormous expansion of our already overburdened jail and prison system that this would require? And where is your evidence that this would even help?

Financing of those expanded prisons requires increases in taxes, and right-wingers hate paying taxes, even for parts of governments that they like, like soldiers and cops and jails.

Also, by the looks of it, if we stopped jailing drug offenders and minor offenders, we'd likely to have plenty of room for very nasty criminals.

 

[bilby]

We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.

The problem with that is that any act punishable only by a fine, is only illegal for poor people.

 

[Politesse]

We can also make more room for such people by treating minor crimes like traffic violations.

The problem with that is that any act punishable only by a fine, is only illegal for poor people.

In the US, that describes most crimes, alas. Indeed, you find that the crimes of the wealthy tend to be handled with fines, just a part of their annual budget.