Brexit has happened

[Bronzeage]

Back to the Germans sitting around the table. One guy asks "What if we had something like that? I mean, suppose Europeans stopped trying to kill each once every 30 or 40 years and we just worked and made stuff to sell to each other?"

The other Germans looked at him in amazement. It was a crazy idea, but it just might work.

...and that German was called Winston Churchill.

True story.

Give some credit to Harry Truman and his Marshall Plan. (BTW, Truman's gt-gt-grandfather Hans Michael Gutknecht was born in Prussia.)

One of the more depressing things about Brexit is I have yet to meet anyone in favor of Brexit who has any grasp of economics. The idea that Britain could maintain their economy after leaving the European Union and the Common Market is silly to the point of lunacy.

Didn't I learn at this very board that Boris Johnson based his stance on Brexit solely on what would garner him more votes? And that the Government went along with the referendum only because they thought that even the hoi polloi wouldn't be stupid enough to vote Leave?

Yup. There was no particular public demand for any kind of change, but ever since the 1970s, a small but vocal part of the Conservative Party had been a thorn in the side of Conservative Prime Ministers, calling for ties with the EU to be weakened. This was an entirely internal debate in the Tory party; Nobody much cared about it outside the party room.

Then David Cameron came up with a brilliant plan - he could silence the 1922 committee and other 'euroskeptics' in his party once and for all, by proving beyond doubt that the voters were in favour of the EU.

So he held a hastily worded and completely non-binding vote, which he knew he would win easily.

He lost by a tiny margin; And the small number of wealthy euroskeptics who had significant ownership of the media were able to spin this result as an unequivocal and unchallengable will of the people. Never once admitting that while "remain" is a single clear option that has a detailed and specific result in every area of politics and trade, "leave" is as many different options as there are voters.

Imagine a US Presidential race, in which the ballot paper asks "Should we keep Joe Biden as president, or have someone else?". Clearly, the answer depends on who that "someone else" actually is - it's not a fair choice between two possibilities. Now imagine Joe gets 48.5% of the vote. Donald Trump claims victory. After all, he's 'someone else', therefore that 51.5% obviously voted for him, right? Is that a democratic result? Of course not, but it can certainly be spun as one to the idiots.

The entire Brexit debacle is a consequence of internal party issues in one political party, that got way out of hand.

So, what would have been a legitimate way for Britain to leave the EU?

 

[Metaphor]

Back to the Germans sitting around the table. One guy asks "What if we had something like that? I mean, suppose Europeans stopped trying to kill each once every 30 or 40 years and we just worked and made stuff to sell to each other?"

The other Germans looked at him in amazement. It was a crazy idea, but it just might work.

...and that German was called Winston Churchill.

True story.

Give some credit to Harry Truman and his Marshall Plan. (BTW, Truman's gt-gt-grandfather Hans Michael Gutknecht was born in Prussia.)

One of the more depressing things about Brexit is I have yet to meet anyone in favor of Brexit who has any grasp of economics. The idea that Britain could maintain their economy after leaving the European Union and the Common Market is silly to the point of lunacy.

Didn't I learn at this very board that Boris Johnson based his stance on Brexit solely on what would garner him more votes? And that the Government went along with the referendum only because they thought that even the hoi polloi wouldn't be stupid enough to vote Leave?

Yup. There was no particular public demand for any kind of change, but ever since the 1970s, a small but vocal part of the Conservative Party had been a thorn in the side of Conservative Prime Ministers, calling for ties with the EU to be weakened. This was an entirely internal debate in the Tory party; Nobody much cared about it outside the party room.

Then David Cameron came up with a brilliant plan - he could silence the 1922 committee and other 'euroskeptics' in his party once and for all, by proving beyond doubt that the voters were in favour of the EU.

So he held a hastily worded and completely non-binding vote, which he knew he would win easily.

He lost by a tiny margin; And the small number of wealthy euroskeptics who had significant ownership of the media were able to spin this result as an unequivocal and unchallengable will of the people. Never once admitting that while "remain" is a single clear option that has a detailed and specific result in every area of politics and trade, "leave" is as many different options as there are voters.

Imagine a US Presidential race, in which the ballot paper asks "Should we keep Joe Biden as president, or have someone else?". Clearly, the answer depends on who that "someone else" actually is - it's not a fair choice between two possibilities. Now imagine Joe gets 48.5% of the vote. Donald Trump claims victory. After all, he's 'someone else', therefore that 51.5% obviously voted for him, right? Is that a democratic result? Of course not, but it can certainly be spun as one to the idiots.

The entire Brexit debacle is a consequence of internal party issues in one political party, that got way out of hand.

So, what would have been a legitimate way for Britain to leave the EU?

I assume this was either an accident, or a meta-comment that there are zero legitimate ways for Britain to have left the EU.

In that case, I think joining the EU should come with a warning: membership is forever. You cannot leave.

 

[bilby]

The Brits, meaning England,

"The Brits" very definitely does NOT mean England.

That you can say such a thing at all disqualifies you from having any understanding of the issue under discussion.

hags onto itthe image of empire and royalty. Can't let those pesky Scots get away.

Those would be the Scots who took over the English throne in 1605, right?

The English generally don't hang on to empire and royalty. Those over about sixty years of age tend to. Those born and raised after the Suez Crisis faded into memory, not so much.

 

[TSwizzle]

I think if the Scottish people want to leave the UK, they should be allowed to quietly leave.

The SNP have had two referendums on independence and it has been rejected twice, quite handily. The most recent referendum was in 2014. The current polls suggest that independence is still a non starter but Sturgeon doggedly insists otherwise. A case of keep voting until you get it right.

And it’s a bit of an odd position to be fiercely pro independence and yet pro EU member.

 

[Metaphor]

I think if the Scottish people want to leave the UK, they should be allowed to quietly leave.

The SNP have had two referendums on independence and it has been rejected twice, quite handily. The most recent referendum was in 2014. The current polls suggest that independence is still a non starter but Sturgeon doggedly insists otherwise. A case of keep voting until you get it right.

And it’s a bit of an odd position to be fiercely pro independence and yet pro EU member.

Oh, I didn't say Scotland was coherent. Goodness no.

Sturgeon could not convince her own people to leave in 2014, and it is not clear that another referendum is justified--yet.

 

[bigfield]

Man look, I'm at work right now but really wanna dive into this. First off I think most people against Brexit are using all the obvious upfront costs of Brexit as proof of its failure. NO shit Trade is going to suck. No shit costs will go up as they'll need to make some costly adjustments to their borders in order to trade (stuff that other unnamed nations demand btw). No shit the filthy rich who can't enjoy the usual benefits are going to bitch and moan on Pay to Play media networks. Sure there is going to be all sorts of other stuff running foul as anything connected to the EU clearly should after the breakup. Of Course, the EU is going to do everything it can to make an example out of them which will draw out their glorious rebound longer than it should. No shit there is going to be political turmoil amongst themselves because the UK was split down the middle over Brexit. So yeah, all this bad stuff is a given. What is not a given is the UK just sitting down and indefinitely taking tomatoes to the face. Now that's a real pipe dream.

Once the radiation from all the fallout clears the UK will do just fine. It's not like they don't have a list of talents the world abroad doesn't already benefit from.

I also think it was a good shakeup for the powers that be. Folks act like the EU is this angelic force of God that does all things good on earth (Ptooey)

Seems like it's all frowns for the UK

• Obvious upfront costs
• Trade sucks
• Costs have gone up
• Costly border adjustments
• Other stuff running afoul: anything connected to the EU
• EU making an example of them
• Political turmoil
• Limited duration of time spent taking tomatoes to the face

Well, actually there is a silver lining:

• The British have new things to complain about

On the other hand, the EU appears to have benefitted from the UK's departure:

• They got a good shakeup

Whoopty doo. Not the first to leave the EU and face exciting pains. Will also not be the first to leave the EU and get along just fine either. The only place I know of that went to complete crap after exiting is Saint Barthélemy and that's because they're a small french territory that had a dependence on fishing while having to compete with one of the top ten fish exporting countries. so what exactly sets the precedent for leaving the EU being so bad in the long term? The UK is in the position to be just fine with the potential to be even better off.

It's not at all clear to me how the UK has the potential to be even better off.

The Tories have put out a report intended to explain the benefits of Brexit but once you get into it it's clear that these benefits are nothing more than a consolation prize that don't make up for the costs of Brexit.

The Tories have pawned off the UK's brand-new 50 inch Smart TV, but now the UK has a fresh new fifty quid and the freedom to spend it on anything they want!

 

[Bronzeage]

Back to the Germans sitting around the table. One guy asks "What if we had something like that? I mean, suppose Europeans stopped trying to kill each once every 30 or 40 years and we just worked and made stuff to sell to each other?"

The other Germans looked at him in amazement. It was a crazy idea, but it just might work.

...and that German was called Winston Churchill.

True story.

Give some credit to Harry Truman and his Marshall Plan. (BTW, Truman's gt-gt-grandfather Hans Michael Gutknecht was born in Prussia.)

One of the more depressing things about Brexit is I have yet to meet anyone in favor of Brexit who has any grasp of economics. The idea that Britain could maintain their economy after leaving the European Union and the Common Market is silly to the point of lunacy.

Didn't I learn at this very board that Boris Johnson based his stance on Brexit solely on what would garner him more votes? And that the Government went along with the referendum only because they thought that even the hoi polloi wouldn't be stupid enough to vote Leave?

Yup. There was no particular public demand for any kind of change, but ever since the 1970s, a small but vocal part of the Conservative Party had been a thorn in the side of Conservative Prime Ministers, calling for ties with the EU to be weakened. This was an entirely internal debate in the Tory party; Nobody much cared about it outside the party room.

Then David Cameron came up with a brilliant plan - he could silence the 1922 committee and other 'euroskeptics' in his party once and for all, by proving beyond doubt that the voters were in favour of the EU.

So he held a hastily worded and completely non-binding vote, which he knew he would win easily.

He lost by a tiny margin; And the small number of wealthy euroskeptics who had significant ownership of the media were able to spin this result as an unequivocal and unchallengable will of the people. Never once admitting that while "remain" is a single clear option that has a detailed and specific result in every area of politics and trade, "leave" is as many different options as there are voters.

Imagine a US Presidential race, in which the ballot paper asks "Should we keep Joe Biden as president, or have someone else?". Clearly, the answer depends on who that "someone else" actually is - it's not a fair choice between two possibilities. Now imagine Joe gets 48.5% of the vote. Donald Trump claims victory. After all, he's 'someone else', therefore that 51.5% obviously voted for him, right? Is that a democratic result? Of course not, but it can certainly be spun as one to the idiots.

The entire Brexit debacle is a consequence of internal party issues in one political party, that got way out of hand.

So, what would have been a legitimate way for Britain to leave the EU?

Back to the Germans sitting around the table. One guy asks "What if we had something like that? I mean, suppose Europeans stopped trying to kill each once every 30 or 40 years and we just worked and made stuff to sell to each other?"

The other Germans looked at him in amazement. It was a crazy idea, but it just might work.

...and that German was called Winston Churchill.

True story.

Give some credit to Harry Truman and his Marshall Plan. (BTW, Truman's gt-gt-grandfather Hans Michael Gutknecht was born in Prussia.)

One of the more depressing things about Brexit is I have yet to meet anyone in favor of Brexit who has any grasp of economics. The idea that Britain could maintain their economy after leaving the European Union and the Common Market is silly to the point of lunacy.

Didn't I learn at this very board that Boris Johnson based his stance on Brexit solely on what would garner him more votes? And that the Government went along with the referendum only because they thought that even the hoi polloi wouldn't be stupid enough to vote Leave?

Yup. There was no particular public demand for any kind of change, but ever since the 1970s, a small but vocal part of the Conservative Party had been a thorn in the side of Conservative Prime Ministers, calling for ties with the EU to be weakened. This was an entirely internal debate in the Tory party; Nobody much cared about it outside the party room.

Then David Cameron came up with a brilliant plan - he could silence the 1922 committee and other 'euroskeptics' in his party once and for all, by proving beyond doubt that the voters were in favour of the EU.

So he held a hastily worded and completely non-binding vote, which he knew he would win easily.

He lost by a tiny margin; And the small number of wealthy euroskeptics who had significant ownership of the media were able to spin this result as an unequivocal and unchallengable will of the people. Never once admitting that while "remain" is a single clear option that has a detailed and specific result in every area of politics and trade, "leave" is as many different options as there are voters.

Imagine a US Presidential race, in which the ballot paper asks "Should we keep Joe Biden as president, or have someone else?". Clearly, the answer depends on who that "someone else" actually is - it's not a fair choice between two possibilities. Now imagine Joe gets 48.5% of the vote. Donald Trump claims victory. After all, he's 'someone else', therefore that 51.5% obviously voted for him, right? Is that a democratic result? Of course not, but it can certainly be spun as one to the idiots.

The entire Brexit debacle is a consequence of internal party issues in one political party, that got way out of hand.

So, what would have been a legitimate way for Britain to lea

Back to the Germans sitting around the table. One guy asks "What if we had something like that? I mean, suppose Europeans stopped trying to kill each once every 30 or 40 years and we just worked and made stuff to sell to each other?"

The other Germans looked at him in amazement. It was a crazy idea, but it just might work.

...and that German was called Winston Churchill.

True story.

Give some credit to Harry Truman and his Marshall Plan. (BTW, Truman's gt-gt-grandfather Hans Michael Gutknecht was born in Prussia.)

One of the more depressing things about Brexit is I have yet to meet anyone in favor of Brexit who has any grasp of economics. The idea that Britain could maintain their economy after leaving the European Union and the Common Market is silly to the point of lunacy.

Didn't I learn at this very board that Boris Johnson based his stance on Brexit solely on what would garner him more votes? And that the Government went along with the referendum only because they thought that even the hoi polloi wouldn't be stupid enough to vote Leave?

Yup. There was no particular public demand for any kind of change, but ever since the 1970s, a small but vocal part of the Conservative Party had been a thorn in the side of Conservative Prime Ministers, calling for ties with the EU to be weakened. This was an entirely internal debate in the Tory party; Nobody much cared about it outside the party room.

Then David Cameron came up with a brilliant plan - he could silence the 1922 committee and other 'euroskeptics' in his party once and for all, by proving beyond doubt that the voters were in favour of the EU.

So he held a hastily worded and completely non-binding vote, which he knew he would win easily.

He lost by a tiny margin; And the small number of wealthy euroskeptics who had significant ownership of the media were able to spin this result as an unequivocal and unchallengable will of the people. Never once admitting that while "remain" is a single clear option that has a detailed and specific result in every area of politics and trade, "leave" is as many different options as there are voters.

Imagine a US Presidential race, in which the ballot paper asks "Should we keep Joe Biden as president, or have someone else?". Clearly, the answer depends on who that "someone else" actually is - it's not a fair choice between two possibilities. Now imagine Joe gets 48.5% of the vote. Donald Trump claims victory. After all, he's 'someone else', therefore that 51.5% obviously voted for him, right? Is that a democratic result? Of course not, but it can certainly be spun as one to the idiots.

The entire Brexit debacle is a consequence of internal party issues in one political party, that got way out of hand.

So, what would have been a legitimate way for Britain to leave the EU?

I assume this was either an accident, or a meta-comment that there are zero legitimate ways for Britain to have left the EU.

In that case, I think joining the EU should come with a warning: membership is forever. You cannot leave.

Well, that is obviously not the case, as we have seen the UK leave the EU. It did require those who pushed the idea to either be totally unaware of the consequences, or blatantly lie about the consequences. If one's political goals require subterfuge in order to gain the necessary votes to gain them, that's sort of an illegitimate way.

 

[TomC]

I assume this was either an accident, or a meta-comment that there are zero legitimate ways for Britain to have left the EU.

I don't see that at all.
A change as large, complex, far-reaching, and permanent as Brexit should have had a better process than a simple Y/N vote.

By "better", I mean a process by which a more transparent and comprehensive plan was offered to replace the status quo.

Perhaps a vote to start a process of changing the status quo, with discussion and elections in the interim before another referendum on whether or not the proposed plan for Brexit, clearly laid out and debated in the public sphere, was scheduled.
How about that?

In that case, I think joining the EU should come with a warning: membership is forever...

That's so obviously wrong it's ridiculous.

Brexit is more like a textbook case of "Be careful what you wish for because you might get it."

That's what I see as having happened. Brexit was a bad idea and most people knew it. Polls showed it very unlikely to pass. So sensible folks didn't much bother coming out to vote.

Rather like the American voters who assumed that Clinton would be president, not Trump.
Oops!

Once it passed though, then plans started to be made. And the ramifications aren't all that popular. Reality has intruded. And years later, Brexit hasn't really happened yet.

These are just the opinions of a benighted resident of southern Indiana.
Tom

 

[Hermit]

To my knowledge, the US and China are their most important trade partners so the only real obstacle in the UK's way is a bitter and defensive (afraid of a succeeding UK) EU. That's just my simple-minded take.

What orifice did you pull that knowledge out of? Going by the UK government's information. more trade has been done between the UK and the EU than the UK and the rest of the world until the first quarter of 2021. The change did not come about because trade with the rest of the world increased.

 

[Hermit]

Hmmm... I always thought the big Irish migration to the US had something to do with the potato famine.

Oh that was definitely a factor.

The biggest factor by a long shot.

But there were lots of other ones. It didn't take place in a vacuum.
Brits would rather talk about that factor mainly because they can disavow responsibility for that at least.

No, Tom. Everybody talks about the potato famine because it was the biggest factor in the history of Irish immigration. Between 1845 and 1855, 2.1 million people left Ireland, a figure the isle has not come anywhere near to before or since in sheer number, let alone in percentage terms of the total population, which was about 8.75 million when the blight started.

Let go of that metaphorical shamrock already. You were born in the US of A, and I venture to guess your parents and grand parents were too. You are no more Irish than I am Austrian.

 

[Metaphor]

That's what I see as having happened. Brexit was a bad idea and most people knew it. Polls showed it very unlikely to pass. So sensible folks didn't much bother coming out to vote.

Doesn't seem they were all that sensible then, if their laziness turned an unlikely situation into reality.

 

[blastula]

Current Bregretting index

Britons would vote to rejoin the EU | YouGov

‘Bregret’ stands at highest level recorded to date

yougov.co.uk

 

[TomC]

Current Bregretting index

View attachment 43856

Britons would vote to rejoin the EU | YouGov

‘Bregret’ stands at highest level recorded to date

yougov.co.uk

Does Bregret actually matter, in any real world way?

It happened. Get over it. I doubt the EU would accept you back on terms British voters would accept. Why would they? Brits are like a spouse who publicly dumps their partner, then comes crawling back crying.

Sorry bucky, they've moved on. You're gonna have to do better than regret doing what you did.
Tom

Full Disclosure ~I'm an Irish Catholic American. The self-serving Brits of old screwed over most of my forebears so much that they left Ireland. I've got no sympathy for Brits suffering from yet more self indulgent dumbassery, like Brexit. Quite the contrary.
I'm enjoying the show. Especially since I know it's working for my benefit as an American. Brits are stuck dealing with us colonists like any other 2nd world country deals with US

 

[Jayjay]

I like the puns, but they aren't going far enough. Instead of asking if people if they "bregret" leaving the EU, they should be asked if "Britain was bright or brong to vote for breaving the breuropean brunion?".

 

[bilby]

It doesn't really matter what tortured puns the press come up with; The fact remains that the country is now irretrievably oken.

 

[Derec]

Does Bregret actually matter, in any real world way?

Probably not.

It happened. Get over it. I doubt the EU would accept you back on terms British voters would accept.

I agree. EU is unlikely to do that.

Why would they?

I think UK was, and would still be, good for the EU and Europe in general.

Brits are like a spouse who publicly dumps their partner, then comes crawling back cr aying.

Or like George Costanza.

Sorry bucky, they've moved on. You're gonna have to do better than regret doing what you did.

Maybe they can just go back, pretend like it never happened. Or if that fails, Rishi Sunak could slip Ursula von der Leyen a mickey.

Full Disclosure ~I'm an Irish Catholic American. The self-serving Brits of old screwed over most of my forebears so much that they left Ireland. I've got no sympathy for Brits suffering from yet more self indulgent dumbassery, like Brexit. Quite the contrary.
I'm enjoying the show. Especially since I know it's working for my benefit as an American. Brits are stuck dealing with us colonists like any other 2nd world country deals with US

You Irish sure are a contentious bunch.

 

[Derec]

It doesn't really matter what tortured puns the press come up with; The fact remains that the country is now irretrievably oken.

Are you saying it can't be unoked?

 

[TomC]

I think UK was, and would still be, good for the EU and Europe in general.

So do I.
But not any more good for EU countries than anyone else.

Perhaps if King Charles applied to Biden for U.S. statehood? It might work...
Tom

 

[Derec]

Britons would vote to rejoin the EU | YouGov

‘Bregret’ stands at highest level recorded to date

yougov.co.uk

David Cameron (who was in general a bad PM) screwed things up when he called a referendum. Things like this should not be decided by referendum (there is a reason we have representative democracy to begin with) and certainly not based on bare majority vote (and not some supermajority like 2/3).
The referendum though was non-binding and later PMs did not have to go through with it. The opposition was also not helpful. Had Labour positioned itself as clearly for Bremain, and had a sane candidate for PM, they would have won the 2017 election. Instead they had Comrade Jezza as leader. Nuff said.

 

[Tigers!]

Britons would vote to rejoin the EU | YouGov

‘Bregret’ stands at highest level recorded to date

yougov.co.uk

David Cameron (who was in general a bad PM) screwed things up when he called a referendum. Things like this should not be decided by referendum (there is a reason we have representative democracy to begin with) and certainly not based on bare majority vote (and not some supermajority like 2/3).
The referendum though was non-binding and later PMs did not have to go through with it. The opposition was also not helpful. Had Labour positioned itself as clearly for Bremain, and had a sane candidate for PM, they would have won the 2017 election. Instead they had Comrade Jezza as leader. Nuff said.

I wonder how many of those who now wish to re-join the EU didn't vote in the referendum? ~34% of the eligible voters did not bother voting in probably the most important referendum in British history.
Own goal, shot them selves in the foot etc.. Choose your own metaphor.