Can an agnostic pray?

[Philos]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

 

[bigfield]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

Logic says:

It makes you feel better, and
It doesn't do any harm, therefore
Keep doing it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

My thoughts. The point of prayer is to organise your thoughts. To meditate and have a moment of introspection. God is a metaphor. I believe prayer actually works. But not in the universe-granting-you-gifts way. There's no magic involved.

People suck at setting time aside for introspection. In today's world, with our iPhones and Youtubes it's more important than ever to just sit in silence and see what your mind throws at you. Prayer is about teaching yourself about yourself. That would be true even if you pray to God.

The last couple of years I've been experimenting with prayer and meditation. It's made me a much more patient, attentive and sensitive person. It's also made me much more resilient to stress. I'm less fun. But I think I'm a happier more rounded person. My athletic performances have shot through the roof though. I'm in better shape that ever before. That way it's really helped me out. I think it's to a large part down to the meditation. I'm better at finding and connecting with the right muscles. Sure, it doesn't have to be just the meditation. But I think it is.

You're an atheist. Don't be afraid of praying to God. What's the worst that can happen?

 

[DBT]

It's possible that prayers, like mantras, may have the effect of calming the mind and diminishing worries and fears, taking your mind away from problems, at least for a little while.

 

[Ford]

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Well praying isn't an entirely logical undertaking, is it?

I believe it was Buddha who said something like "water always flows downhill. The sun always rises in the east. Prayer to all the gods in India will not change these things," making the case that prayer is useless.

Then again, I'm sure we all know someone who has come upon hard times. A death in the family. A serious health crisis of their own. Nowadays these things tend to pop up on social media, and in my experience there's usually a bevy of people chiming in to say "I'm praying for you" or some such sentiment. Now, I don't pray, but when I see things like this I'll stop and think about that person. I might even post "sending positive thoughts your way" or an expression of sympathy.

Is that a prayer? Not to a deity for sure. Not a request for divine intervention. But stopping and thinking about my friend who battled cancer, or my friend who lost her daughter to SIDS, or my cousins who lost their dad and holding them in my thoughts for a time and wishing them well could be a form of prayer.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Then again, I'm sure we all know someone who has come upon hard times. A death in the family. A serious health crisis of their own. Nowadays these things tend to pop up on social media, and in my experience there's usually a bevy of people chiming in to say "I'm praying for you" or some such sentiment. Now, I don't pray, but when I see things like this I'll stop and think about that person. I might even post "sending positive thoughts your way" or an expression of sympathy.

Is that a prayer? Not to a deity for sure. Not a request for divine intervention. But stopping and thinking about my friend who battled cancer, or my friend who lost her daughter to SIDS, or my cousins who lost their dad and holding them in my thoughts for a time and wishing them well could be a form of prayer.

That's a kind of praying that makes me angry. Look at what is actually being communicated. "Hey, buddy. I can see you are in pain. I don't want to do anything for you, and I don't really give a shit. So I'm going to tell you that I'm helping, but I'm not. But I'm not being a dick. Please think of me as a generous and kind person instead of the self-centered lazy ass that I am". If you don't want to be an actual support to somebody who is suffering then keep your trap shut.

 

[Ford]

Hey, buddy. I can see you are in pain. I don't want to do anything for you, and I don't really give a shit.

I don't see how you got that out of what I wrote.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hey, buddy. I can see you are in pain. I don't want to do anything for you, and I don't really give a shit.

I don't see how you got that out of what I wrote.

I was just adding to it. I wasn't criticizing what you did.

 

[Philos]

My thoughts. The point of prayer is to organise your thoughts. To meditate and have a moment of introspection. God is a metaphor. I believe prayer actually works. But not in the universe-granting-you-gifts way. There's no magic involved.

People suck at setting time aside for introspection. In today's world, with our iPhones and Youtubes it's more important than ever to just sit in silence and see what your mind throws at you. Prayer is about teaching yourself about yourself. That would be true even if you pray to God.

The last couple of years I've been experimenting with prayer and meditation. It's made me a much more patient, attentive and sensitive person. It's also made me much more resilient to stress. I'm less fun. But I think I'm a happier more rounded person. My athletic performances have shot through the roof though. I'm in better shape that ever before. That way it's really helped me out. I think it's to a large part down to the meditation. I'm better at finding and connecting with the right muscles. Sure, it doesn't have to be just the meditation. But I think it is.

You're an atheist. Don't be afraid of praying to God. What's the worst that can happen?

Dr Z,

That's good stuff.

I'm realising that when I pray I'm actually facing up to something and dealing with it. It is a very honest moment. Meditation does the same kind of thing, but I do find that praying is quicker (me not being a Muslim and all).

A.

 

[DrZoidberg]

My thoughts. The point of prayer is to organise your thoughts. To meditate and have a moment of introspection. God is a metaphor. I believe prayer actually works. But not in the universe-granting-you-gifts way. There's no magic involved.

People suck at setting time aside for introspection. In today's world, with our iPhones and Youtubes it's more important than ever to just sit in silence and see what your mind throws at you. Prayer is about teaching yourself about yourself. That would be true even if you pray to God.

The last couple of years I've been experimenting with prayer and meditation. It's made me a much more patient, attentive and sensitive person. It's also made me much more resilient to stress. I'm less fun. But I think I'm a happier more rounded person. My athletic performances have shot through the roof though. I'm in better shape that ever before. That way it's really helped me out. I think it's to a large part down to the meditation. I'm better at finding and connecting with the right muscles. Sure, it doesn't have to be just the meditation. But I think it is.

You're an atheist. Don't be afraid of praying to God. What's the worst that can happen?

Dr Z,

That's good stuff.

I'm realising that when I pray I'm actually facing up to something and dealing with it. It is a very honest moment. Meditation does the same kind of thing, but I do find that praying is quicker (me not being a Muslim and all).

A.

And when you're having a discussion with an imaginary friend/parent it's way easier being honest than to a flesh and blood friend. I think that's part of the appeal of the Christian God. It's basically an idealized parent, who knows everything anyway, so you might as well be honest. A piece of mental trickery to help us be honest with ourselves.

I see it as visualization. Just like athletes visualizing the perfect shot helps them perform the actual shot. Visualizing you having an honest conversation with somebody without losing your cool, is a great way to stay on target when you need to be. And as everything practice makes perfect. That's why it's good to set aside time for meditation every day.

 

[Bronzeage]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

All people pray, believers, agnostics, and atheists, alike.

When a person stands in front of an elevator, waiting for the door to open, their eyes raise to the triangular lamp and say, "Come on, hurry up." This is a prayer, like any other. It's similar to the prayers made when we turn the ignition key and nothing happens.

Humans are a social species. We depend upon the cooperation of other humans for survival, and often, we only need ask. It's natural for us to seek help when in need and just as natural to ask for help, even when talking to an elevator.

Our social nature comes with a high degree of empathy. The normal among us can see the situations of others and instantly imagine ourselves in that condition, and the resulting feelings and reactions. This high degree of empathy allows us to construct alternate personalities within out own mind, and then have conversations with them. Part of our human high level of problem solving skills is because one person can put a committee to work on any problem. One voice proposes a solution and another critiques it, until something works.

Most of us are able to keep these alternate speakers in their proper place, but occasionally things go wrong.

An internal monologue, which is really a dialogue is an intrinsic part of the human mind. This makes prayer, no matter to what, or whom, it is directed, a natural thing which we do, especially in times of stress.

 

[ronburgundy]

Prayer is essentially hoping for something, which doesn't require any belief that something is listening. In fact, even to the theist it should seem silly that a being with the power to hear and answer would need you to pray to hear you rather than just read your hopeful thoughts that you had before ever starting to actually pray.

The degree of actual belief in a listener determines where the act ranges on the spectrum of hoping to asking.

Meditative hoping should have the same emotional benefits to the hoper. I don't encourage the "asking" type of prayer because any actual additional effect beyond mere hoping is more likely to be negative than positive. The odds that the asker will actually thing they have done something about the situation and thus do a bit less of other tangible actions is infinitely greater than the odds the prayer will be answered in a positive fashion (note that even if a diety existed, their is no greater odds that it answers prayers than punishes the askers for being so presumptuous and bothersome).

 

[Playball40]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

Most of us are able to keep these alternate speakers in their proper place, but occasionally things go wrong.

An internal monologue, which is really a dialogue is an intrinsic part of the human mind. This makes prayer, no matter to what, or whom, it is directed, a natural thing which we do, especially in times of stress.

And how does one solve this? Is there really an answer to help when that 'voice in your head' goes wrong?

 

[Treedbear]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

I was raised Roman Catholic and have tried praying. Never found peace in it. Just emptiness. Now I'm an atheist (no belief in God due to lack of evidence and finding no logical basis). I used to call myself an agnostic to let others know (and in many cases to put them at ease) that I was leaving open the possibility of a God. But even then I didn't see the rationale for prayer. Now as then I take my occasional but less and less frequent bouts of dispair in myself or humanity in general, and the impulse to pray, as a warning sign that I need to change my thinking on something. I see it as a sign of desperation, and it quickly goes away. I then allow myself to find peace in the examination of my thoughts and the actual reasons behind my feelings. I don't see the idea of God as a metaphor for the subconscious, or a symbol of anything but a separation from reality. And I come here to discuss things rationally and confront my humanity.

Meditation is different than prayer. It's meant to be a way to learn to recognize one's sources of anxiety. So I need to find a quiet place, such as a church or library or wherever, so I can look at humanity and my place in it objectively. I don't know, maybe some people need the idea of a God to establish that perspective.

 

[Under the Rose]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

I was raised with an Anglican background and have long since decided that I am a pagan with an interest in the beliefs of the druids. We are all a part of this experience we call 'life' and wherever and whenever we may look for our inspiration and energy, for ourselves and others, it matters not or by what name we call it, IMHO.

 

[bilby]

Most of us are able to keep these alternate speakers in their proper place, but occasionally things go wrong.

An internal monologue, which is really a dialogue is an intrinsic part of the human mind. This makes prayer, no matter to what, or whom, it is directed, a natural thing which we do, especially in times of stress.

And how does one solve this? Is there really an answer to help when that 'voice in your head' goes wrong?

Sure, there's lots of options. These are a good start:

Amisulpride
Aripiprazole
Asenapine
Brexpiprazole
Cariprazine
Chlorpromazine
Clozapine
Fluphenazine
Haloperidol
Iloperidone
Lurasidone
Olanzapine
Paliperidone
Perphenazine
Quetiapine
Risperidone
Thioridazine
Thiothixene
Ziprasidone

Your psychiatrist can help you to determine which of these is most suitable, and at what dose - the most effective treatment is often widely different from patient to patient.

Speaking to inanimate (or even non-existent) entities is quite normal. It's when people believe that these inanimate or non-existent entities are responding to, or even initiating, such conversation, that you need to worry.

 

[blastula]

That's what Pascal recommended, fake it till you make it.

 

[Philos]

Meditation is different than prayer. It's meant to be a way to learn to recognize one's sources of anxiety. So I need to find a quiet place, such as a church or library or wherever, so I can look at humanity and my place in it objectively. I don't know, maybe some people need the idea of a God to establish that perspective.

Treedbear,

I agree that meditation is different from prayer, also I agree with your general description re meditation.

For me, prayer is not about a "look at humanity and my place in it.." My prayer is directed differently, in a way that I cannot explain in words.

A.

 

[Philos]

And how does one solve this? Is there really an answer to help when that 'voice in your head' goes wrong?

Sure, there's lots of options. These are a good start:

Amisulpride
Aripiprazole
Asenapine
Brexpiprazole
Cariprazine
Chlorpromazine
Clozapine
Fluphenazine
Haloperidol
Iloperidone
Lurasidone
Olanzapine
Paliperidone
Perphenazine
Quetiapine
Risperidone
Thioridazine
Thiothixene
Ziprasidone

bil,

There is an old saying among the medics, "When there are many remedies, there is no remedy".

Just a thought.

A.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hi,

I’m not a Christian or believer in any theism. But, sometimes I feel the need to go into a quiet church and pray, either for others or myself. This happens at difficult times, now and then.

There is some logic, possibly irrelevant.

1. A believer can pray because they believe there is a listener.

2. An atheist cannot pray because they do not believe there is a listener.

3. An agnostic can pray because they believe there may (or may not) be a listener.

But what does logic count for? OK, an agnostic can pray because there may be a listener or there may be something therapeutic just in the act of prayer itself. I don’t know, but I do feel something happening.

Any thoughts?

A.

All people pray, believers, agnostics, and atheists, alike.

When a person stands in front of an elevator, waiting for the door to open, their eyes raise to the triangular lamp and say, "Come on, hurry up." This is a prayer, like any other. It's similar to the prayers made when we turn the ignition key and nothing happens.

Humans are a social species. We depend upon the cooperation of other humans for survival, and often, we only need ask. It's natural for us to seek help when in need and just as natural to ask for help, even when talking to an elevator.

Our social nature comes with a high degree of empathy. The normal among us can see the situations of others and instantly imagine ourselves in that condition, and the resulting feelings and reactions. This high degree of empathy allows us to construct alternate personalities within out own mind, and then have conversations with them. Part of our human high level of problem solving skills is because one person can put a committee to work on any problem. One voice proposes a solution and another critiques it, until something works.

Most of us are able to keep these alternate speakers in their proper place, but occasionally things go wrong.

An internal monologue, which is really a dialogue is an intrinsic part of the human mind. This makes prayer, no matter to what, or whom, it is directed, a natural thing which we do, especially in times of stress.

I read this yesterday and it bounced around my brain since then. I don't think I do this. The closest I've come is to talk to my robot vacuum cleaner as if it is a conscious being, and can understand human speech.

I have internal dialogue. But I don't think I've ever confused that with an external consciousness. I once did an experiment with talking to God, pretending God was real. That worked really well and I "felt God's presence" and all of that. But that was just that one time.

If I do some introspection on this I think my default instinct is to assume there's no God. My foxhole would have an atheist in it.