Can Roe v Wade be overturned?

[Playball40]

The 'ineffable plan'!

So god is basically a cunt who is just fucking with us. I knew it!

 

[ideologyhunter]

Always remember: Virgin Mary could've opted for abortion (using the incest exception.) And she didn't. Booya.

 

[Playball40]

How do we know taking that long ass walk through the desert at nine months wasn't her attempt?? Huh? Answer THAT!

Always remember: Virgin Mary could've opted for abortion (using the incest exception.) And she didn't. Booya.

 

[Gun Nut]

Always remember: Virgin Mary could've opted for abortion (using the incest exception.) And she didn't. Booya.

Nope... they went with "wasn't him... it was Him".

 

[ZiprHead]

Always remember: Virgin Mary could've opted for abortion (using the incest exception.) And she didn't. Booya.

He would have just given his life for us sooner.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Always remember: Virgin Mary could've opted for abortion (using the incest exception.) And she didn't. Booya.

He would have just given his life for us sooner.

Seriously. If sacrificing his life for us was so damned important to him for whatever reason, why not just do it in the womb and skip the whole dog and pony show of pretending to be executed later on?

 

[Half-Life]

Did you?



No, but they did have a serious debate about whether or not to provide aggressive resuscitation because such premature babies typically have a very slim chance of non-morbidity. Meaning that nearly every single one develops some sort of severe organ or brain dysfunction and/or dies within a relatively short time after being born.

What a miracle! A severely impaired, possibly brain dead child that never knows anything but suffering and surgeries for their entire short life and that only has a 50/50 chance of surviving at all and a 13% chance of surviving without severe neurodevelopmental impairment.

Oh, and if you have the severe misfortune of giving birth prematurely in America, you're doubly fucked unless you're a millionaire:

Sinconis’ twin boys were born at 24 weeks in Oct. 2006. Sinconis’ placenta detached, and she had to deliver her sons via emergency C-section. Ethan weighed 1 lb., 6 oz.; Aidan weighed half a pound more. “My pregnancy was completely normal and healthy up until five hours before they were born,” says Sinconis, who manages a Starbucks in Seattle. “I had no idea anything would go wrong.”
...
The U.S. Institute of Medicine has calculated the annual costs associated with preterm birth at more than $26 billion. Ethan and Aidan Sinconis racked up $2.2 million in medical bills in the first 18 months after they were born. Insurance covered most of the costs, but their parents’ portion approached $450,000. “It destroyed us,” says Sinconis, 35, who has written about her family’s experience in A Pound of Hope.

She and her husband, Justin, were forced to file for bankruptcy and sold their possessions on Craigslist to generate cash. Meanwhile, the boys struggled through heart surgery and eye surgery, sepsis, rickets and brain hemorrhages. When they left the hospital after six months, they were ordered to avoid contact with the outside world. Attached to oxygen, heart monitors and feeding tubes, they remained at home in isolation for three years.

Now 5½ years old, they’re smaller than other kids their age and struggle socially because they had no playmates for their first three years. They have speech delays, but amazingly, they’re both reading and writing on a second-grade level and will start kindergarten this fall.

Theirs is ultimately a story of success, but it’s not without its glaring caveats. Ethan still has heart and lung problems, and doctor and therapist visits are still a part of the brothers’ regular routine.

That was in 2012 and with premies that made it to the 24 week threshold, which makes a significant difference, but even then you're still looking at devastating costs and life-threatening/life-altering impairments for both the child and the parents.

So, yeah, you can point to the most extreme edge of viability and find examples of aggressive modern science being able to help premature babies survive beyond the womb, but of course any discussion of the quality of life is just conveniently ignored. Medical viability is not the end of the discussion; it's the beginning.

Which means that you must be making a religious argument along the lines of "God wanted that child to be born" and who are these parents to go against God's will and the like. In which case you have hoisted yourself with your own petard, because if you assert any of that then you must also accept that an abortion is equally God's will, because the babies you're talking about would have zero chance of surviving without aggressive modern medical science. If any mother were to simply give birth to a 23 week old fetus, it would die within a matter of hours without modern medical science.

So, that must mean, to the religious, that God made modern medical science to do his will and since his will cannot be known or contravened, no matter what happens--abortion to birth--it must necessarily ALL be God's will.

In short, by attempting to prevent an abortion, you would be equally attempting to thwart God's will.

So what is it? You're simply a sadist who wishes to force unnecessary life-long suffering on others or you're trying to subvert God's will?

God certainly does allow some babies to be miscarried. I can not know the reason why. But, God allowing something does not mean that we humans are allowed to do something. There's a hierarchy here. Every company has rules. Nobody says, "The boss is doing x, why can't I?!?!?!" Seems like you guys haven't thought about this in great depth. Just gave up on God. Sad.

 

[Half-Life]

Always remember: Virgin Mary could've opted for abortion (using the incest exception.) And she didn't. Booya.

No. Gabriel asked Mary if she would bear Jesus. She said yes.

 

[Half-Life]

Did you?



No, but they did have a serious debate about whether or not to provide aggressive resuscitation because such premature babies typically have a very slim chance of non-morbidity. Meaning that nearly every single one develops some sort of severe organ or brain dysfunction and/or dies within a relatively short time after being born.

What a miracle! A severely impaired, possibly brain dead child that never knows anything but suffering and surgeries for their entire short life and that only has a 50/50 chance of surviving at all and a 13% chance of surviving without severe neurodevelopmental impairment.

Oh, and if you have the severe misfortune of giving birth prematurely in America, you're doubly fucked unless you're a millionaire:

Sinconis’ twin boys were born at 24 weeks in Oct. 2006. Sinconis’ placenta detached, and she had to deliver her sons via emergency C-section. Ethan weighed 1 lb., 6 oz.; Aidan weighed half a pound more. “My pregnancy was completely normal and healthy up until five hours before they were born,” says Sinconis, who manages a Starbucks in Seattle. “I had no idea anything would go wrong.”
...
The U.S. Institute of Medicine has calculated the annual costs associated with preterm birth at more than $26 billion. Ethan and Aidan Sinconis racked up $2.2 million in medical bills in the first 18 months after they were born. Insurance covered most of the costs, but their parents’ portion approached $450,000. “It destroyed us,” says Sinconis, 35, who has written about her family’s experience in A Pound of Hope.

She and her husband, Justin, were forced to file for bankruptcy and sold their possessions on Craigslist to generate cash. Meanwhile, the boys struggled through heart surgery and eye surgery, sepsis, rickets and brain hemorrhages. When they left the hospital after six months, they were ordered to avoid contact with the outside world. Attached to oxygen, heart monitors and feeding tubes, they remained at home in isolation for three years.

Now 5½ years old, they’re smaller than other kids their age and struggle socially because they had no playmates for their first three years. They have speech delays, but amazingly, they’re both reading and writing on a second-grade level and will start kindergarten this fall.

Theirs is ultimately a story of success, but it’s not without its glaring caveats. Ethan still has heart and lung problems, and doctor and therapist visits are still a part of the brothers’ regular routine.

That was in 2012 and with premies that made it to the 24 week threshold, which makes a significant difference, but even then you're still looking at devastating costs and life-threatening/life-altering impairments for both the child and the parents.

So, yeah, you can point to the most extreme edge of viability and find examples of aggressive modern science being able to help premature babies survive beyond the womb, but of course any discussion of the quality of life is just conveniently ignored. Medical viability is not the end of the discussion; it's the beginning.

Which means that you must be making a religious argument along the lines of "God wanted that child to be born" and who are these parents to go against God's will and the like. In which case you have hoisted yourself with your own petard, because if you assert any of that then you must also accept that an abortion is equally God's will, because the babies you're talking about would have zero chance of surviving without aggressive modern medical science. If any mother were to simply give birth to a 23 week old fetus, it would die within a matter of hours without modern medical science.

So, that must mean, to the religious, that God made modern medical science to do his will and since his will cannot be known or contravened, no matter what happens--abortion to birth--it must necessarily ALL be God's will.

In short, by attempting to prevent an abortion, you would be equally attempting to thwart God's will.

So what is it? You're simply a sadist who wishes to force unnecessary life-long suffering on others or you're trying to subvert God's will?

Yes, those are success stories of babies being born and surviving, which the pro-choice crowd absolutely despises. You guys probably wish the parents wold have aborted their kids just so they don't go into debt."Kill our child, save some money!" Sickening and disgusting.

 

[Half-Life]

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

and the next logical step would be, "if your god makes good of what seems bad, then abortion seeming bad to you is just your failure to recognize gods good plan".

There is good that comes out of bad things. A man gets into an car accident and gets rushed to the emergency room and he recovers and falls in love with the nurse who was treating him. He says, "That car accident was the best thing that ever happened to me."

You see?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's getting extremely hard for right-wingers to respect pro-choice people. You should see a bunch of comments on right-wing videos about the subject. "Leftists lecture us on how Christopher Columbus was an evil murderer while they celebrate the murder of babies."

Error: Conclusion assumed in argument. It's not a baby until it has a working brain.

That would be week 6. Right in line with the Georgia bill. Fascinating.

Try a minimum of the 7th month. Note that I said working. The existence of some brain tissue doesn't equate to a working brain. The 7th month is when brain waves begin to be observed. That doesn't prove it's working, their lack proves it's not.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

There is good that comes out of bad things.

And more often than not, bad that comes out of bad things, but gee, Pollyanna. It's only people's lives we're talking about casually destroying with a bumper-sticker platitude, so gee willikers, let's use the power of the State for force other people into compliance with voodoo beliefs because "there's good things what cums outa bads, hyuck!"

 

[lpetrich]

Guess who would be aborted!

In the little town of Braunau am Inn, Austria, near the German border, a certain Klara Poelzl has discovered in the fall of 1888 that she is pregnant. She and her husband, a minor customs official named Alois Schicklgruber, decide that they don't want to have a child at that time, so she gets an abortion.

In another little town, Gori, in Asian Georgia, Russian Empire, a certain Ekaterina Geladze has discovered in the summer of 1878 that she is pregnant. But she and her husband Vissarion Dzhugashvili are very poor and not sure that they want a child. So she gets an abortion.

In still another little town, Corning, New York, USA, a certain Anne Purcell Higgins discovers in the beginning of 1879 that she is pregnant. She already had five children and she does not want to have another one. So she gets an abortion.

In a big city, Baltimore, Maryland, USA, a certain Annunciata "Nancy" Lombardi discovered that she was pregnant in late 1939. Her husband, Thomas D'Alesandro Jr., had a long career in public service, in the Maryland House of Deputies, as Maryland's General Deputy Collector of Internal Revenue, and as a Baltimore city councilmember. He was recently elected to the US House of Representatives. But despite this happy life, she worries that it will not last, and so she gets an abortion.

In yet another little town, Hope, Arkansas, USA, a certain Virginia Dell Cassidy has discovered in the beginning of 1946 that she is pregnant. But her husband, William Jefferson Blythe, Jr., was perpetually on the road, and she was wondering what sort of father he would be. So she gets an abortion -- and her suspicions are confirmed three months later when he dies from a car accident.

In a big city, Honolulu, Hawaii, USA, college student Ann Dunham discovered early in 1961 that she is pregnant by another college student, Barack Obama. But since she was in college, she did not think that she was in a good enough position to have a child. So she gets an abortion. Her suspicions were confirmed when the two later went their separate ways, she to the University of Washington in Seattle, and he to Harvard University.

In a bigger city, Chicago, Illinois, USA, a certain Dorothy Emma Howell discovered early in 1947 that she is pregnant by her husband Hugh Ellsworth Rodham. They decide that they don't want a child at that time, so she gets an abortion.

In another big city, New York, New York, USA, Bianca Cortez discovered in early 1989 that she was pregnant. Her husband, Sergio Ocasio, was a successful architect and the couple led a comfortable life. But she has doubts about whether their happy life can continue, so she gets an abortion.

 

[Half-Life]

Guess who would be aborted!

In the little town of Braunau am Inn, Austria, near the German border, a certain Klara Poelzl has discovered in the fall of 1888 that she is pregnant. She and her husband, a minor customs official named Alois Schicklgruber, decide that they don't want to have a child at that time, so she gets an abortion.

In another little town, Gori, in Asian Georgia, Russian Empire, a certain Ekaterina Geladze has discovered in the summer of 1878 that she is pregnant. But she and her husband Vissarion Dzhugashvili are very poor and not sure that they want a child. So she gets an abortion.

In still another little town, Corning, New York, USA, a certain Anne Purcell Higgins discovers in the beginning of 1879 that she is pregnant. She already had five children and she does not want to have another one. So she gets an abortion.

In a big city, Baltimore, Maryland, USA, a certain Annunciata "Nancy" Lombardi discovered that she was pregnant in late 1939. Her husband, Thomas D'Alesandro Jr., had a long career in public service, in the Maryland House of Deputies, as Maryland's General Deputy Collector of Internal Revenue, and as a Baltimore city councilmember. He was recently elected to the US House of Representatives. But despite this happy life, she worries that it will not last, and so she gets an abortion.

In yet another little town, Hope, Arkansas, USA, a certain Virginia Dell Cassidy has discovered in the beginning of 1946 that she is pregnant. But her husband, William Jefferson Blythe, Jr., was perpetually on the road, and she was wondering what sort of father he would be. So she gets an abortion -- and her suspicions are confirmed three months later when he dies from a car accident.

In a big city, Honolulu, Hawaii, USA, college student Ann Dunham discovered early in 1961 that she is pregnant by another college student, Barack Obama. But since she was in college, she did not think that she was in a good enough position to have a child. So she gets an abortion. Her suspicions were confirmed when the two later went their separate ways, she to the University of Washington in Seattle, and he to Harvard University.

In a bigger city, Chicago, Illinois, USA, a certain Dorothy Emma Howell discovered early in 1947 that she is pregnant by her husband Hugh Ellsworth Rodham. They decide that they don't want a child at that time, so she gets an abortion.

In another big city, New York, New York, USA, Bianca Cortez discovered in early 1989 that she was pregnant. Her husband, Sergio Ocasio, was a successful architect and the couple led a comfortable life. But she has doubts about whether their happy life can continue, so she gets an abortion.

That is what the right wonders about.

Since abortion became legal, how many times have we aborted the next Einstein?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wrong, per usual. Unless you think a sea-slug has a "working brain":

Excuse me, but no one is talking about sea slugs. HUman DNA is human DNA. Period. No chance the baby develops into a moose or kangaroo.

Human DNA is irrelevant. Nobody cares if the lab kills human DNA when it's done with a sample.

Furthermore, the issue is whether the brain is working.

 

[Half-Life]

There is good that comes out of bad things.

And more often than not, bad that comes out of bad things, but gee, Pollyanna. It's only people's lives we're talking about casually destroying with a bumper-sticker platitude, so gee willikers, let's use the power of the State for force other people into compliance with voodoo beliefs because "there's good things what cums outa bads, hyuck!"

Nobody forces anyone to do anything. Unless a woman is raped, she made the choice to have sex with another man. One thing that can happen as a result of sex is pregnancy. If you don't want the risk of pregnancy, don't have sex.

This is not some radical new idea here. This is common sense and safety.

 

[lpetrich]

In a big city, New York, New York, USA, Dorothy "Dora" Glassberg discovered in the beginning of 1941 that she was pregnant. Her husband, Elias Ben Yehuda Sanders, was an Eastern European immigrant who became a paint salesman, but she gets a bad case of survivor guilt. So she gets an abortion.

In a medium-sized town, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA, Pauline Reed discovered at the end of 1948 that she was pregnant. Her husband, Donald Jones Herring, worked as a department-store salesman, and the family barely held onto a middle-class lifestyle. She already had three children and she is unsure about having another one. So she gets an abortion.

In a big city, Oakland, California, Shyamala Gopalan, an immigrant from India who did biomedical research, discovered early in 1964 that she was pregnant. Her husband, Donald Harris, was a Jamaican immigrant and a graduate student of economics at the University of California in Berkeley. She became concerned that the marriage would not last, so she gets an abortion.

Guess who?

 

[lpetrich]

Guess who would be aborted!

(list snipped for brevity)

That is what the right wonders about.

Since abortion became legal, how many times have we aborted the next Einstein?

Half-Life, does that include the people on my lists?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

Something like that was my reaction to the "God can make good things come out of bad things" line. Can't God also make good things come out of good things? God does not need bad things to happen, in order to make good things happen. He can make all good things all the time.

He does not NEED bad things to happen. Bad things happen. God can make good come out of the situation.

Then why does he let bad things happen?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your false claim was that a human fetus has a "working brain" by 5 weeks gestation. Your were proven laughably wrong, so now you move the goalposts.

However, by your own original *reasoning*, if you are intellectually honest, this means you must agree to abortions up to 32 weeks gestation.

Definitely not 32 weeks. Didn't you hear about the baby that was recently born at 23 weeks? 23 weeks!!!!!!!! The baby was born and nobody said, "It's still technically a fetus! We can kill it!"

23 weeks people, 23 weeks.

And it simply laid there in the NICU for quite some time. Just because it could survive outside the womb doesn't mean there was a functional brain. After all, consider IVF--routine, the egg survives and grows while outside the womb and nobody says it even has a brain.