Can Roe v Wade be overturned?

[Half-Life]

It's getting extremely hard for right-wingers to respect pro-choice people. You should see a bunch of comments on right-wing videos about the subject. "Leftists lecture us on how Christopher Columbus was an evil murderer while they celebrate the murder of babies."

Error: Conclusion assumed in argument. It's not a baby until it has a working brain.

That would be week 6. Right in line with the Georgia bill. Fascinating.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It's getting extremely hard for right-wingers to respect pro-choice people. You should see a bunch of comments on right-wing videos about the subject. "Leftists lecture us on how Christopher Columbus was an evil murderer while they celebrate the murder of babies."

Error: Conclusion assumed in argument. It's not a baby until it has a working brain.

That would be week 6.

Wrong, per usual. Unless you think a sea-slug has a "working brain":

Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur. This activity, however, is not coherent activity of the kind that underlies human consciousness, or even the coherent activity seen in a shrimp's nervous system. Just as neural activity is present in clinically brain-dead patients, early neural activity consists of unorganized neuron firing of a primitive kind. Neuronal activity by itself does not represent integrated behavior.

During weeks 8 to 10, the cerebrum begins its development in earnest. Neurons proliferate and begin their migration throughout the brain. The anterior commissure, which is the first interhemispheric connection (a small one), also develops. Reflexes appear for the first time during this period.

The frontal and temporal poles of the brain are apparent during weeks 12 to 16, and the frontal pole (which becomes the neocortex) grows disproportionately fast when compared with the rest of the cortex. The surface of the cortex appears flat through the third month, but by the end of the fourth month indentations, or sulci, appear. (These develop into the familiar folds of the cerebrum.) The different lobes of the brain also become apparent, and neurons continue to proliferate and migrate throughout the cortex. By week 13 the fetus has begun to move. Around this time the corpus callosum, the massive collection of fibers (the axons of neurons) that allow for communication between the hemispheres, begins to develop, forming the infrastructure for the major part of the cross talk between the two sides of the brain. Yet the fetus is not a sentient, self-aware organism at this point; it is more like a sea slug, a writhing, reflex-bound hunk of sensory-motor processes that does not respond to anything in a directed, purposeful way. Laying down the infrastructure for a mature brain and possessing a mature brain are two very different states of being.

Synapses-the points where two neurons, the basic building blocks of the nervous system, come together to interact-form in large numbers during the seventeenth and following weeks, allowing for communication between individual neurons. Synaptic activity underlies all brain functions. Synaptic growth does not skyrocket until around postconception day 200 (week 28). Nonetheless, at around week 23 the fetus can survive outside the womb, with medical support; also around this time the fetus can respond to aversive stimuli. Major synaptic growth continues until the third or fourth postnatal month. Sulci continue to develop as the cortex starts folding to create a larger surface area and to accommodate the growing neurons and their supporting glial cells. During this period, neurons begin to myelinate (a process of insulation that speeds their electrical communication). By the thirty-second week, the fetal brain is in control of breathing and body temperature.

 

[Half-Life]

That would be week 6.

Wrong, per usual. Unless you think a sea-slug has a "working brain":

Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur. This activity, however, is not coherent activity of the kind that underlies human consciousness, or even the coherent activity seen in a shrimp's nervous system. Just as neural activity is present in clinically brain-dead patients, early neural activity consists of unorganized neuron firing of a primitive kind. Neuronal activity by itself does not represent integrated behavior.

During weeks 8 to 10, the cerebrum begins its development in earnest. Neurons proliferate and begin their migration throughout the brain. The anterior commissure, which is the first interhemispheric connection (a small one), also develops. Reflexes appear for the first time during this period.

The frontal and temporal poles of the brain are apparent during weeks 12 to 16, and the frontal pole (which becomes the neocortex) grows disproportionately fast when compared with the rest of the cortex. The surface of the cortex appears flat through the third month, but by the end of the fourth month indentations, or sulci, appear. (These develop into the familiar folds of the cerebrum.) The different lobes of the brain also become apparent, and neurons continue to proliferate and migrate throughout the cortex. By week 13 the fetus has begun to move. Around this time the corpus callosum, the massive collection of fibers (the axons of neurons) that allow for communication between the hemispheres, begins to develop, forming the infrastructure for the major part of the cross talk between the two sides of the brain. Yet the fetus is not a sentient, self-aware organism at this point; it is more like a sea slug, a writhing, reflex-bound hunk of sensory-motor processes that does not respond to anything in a directed, purposeful way. Laying down the infrastructure for a mature brain and possessing a mature brain are two very different states of being.

Synapses-the points where two neurons, the basic building blocks of the nervous system, come together to interact-form in large numbers during the seventeenth and following weeks, allowing for communication between individual neurons. Synaptic activity underlies all brain functions. Synaptic growth does not skyrocket until around postconception day 200 (week 28). Nonetheless, at around week 23 the fetus can survive outside the womb, with medical support; also around this time the fetus can respond to aversive stimuli. Major synaptic growth continues until the third or fourth postnatal month. Sulci continue to develop as the cortex starts folding to create a larger surface area and to accommodate the growing neurons and their supporting glial cells. During this period, neurons begin to myelinate (a process of insulation that speeds their electrical communication). By the thirty-second week, the fetal brain is in control of breathing and body temperature.

Excuse me, but no one is talking about sea slugs. HUman DNA is human DNA. Period. No chance the baby develops into a moose or kangaroo.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It's getting extremely hard for right-wingers to respect pro-choice people. You should see a bunch of comments on right-wing videos about the subject. "Leftists lecture us on how Christopher Columbus was an evil murderer while they celebrate the murder of babies."

Error: Conclusion assumed in argument. It's not a baby until it has a working brain.

That would be week 6. Right in line with the Georgia bill. Fascinating.

Yup, the pro-life mind, 6 weeks of fetal development.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Wrong, per usual. Unless you think a sea-slug has a "working brain":

Excuse me, but no one is talking about sea slugs. HUman DNA is human DNA. Period. No chance the baby develops into a moose or kangaroo.

Care to explain the elephant man?

 

[RavenSky]

Your "god" is a sadistic son-of-a-bitch who visits horrifying things like rape and torture on people?

No, PEOPLE do that. But, God can make good things come out of bad things.

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

 

[RavenSky]

My apologies, but when I see a religious fundamentalist who has an intractable belief in their faith's superiority wanting to restrict womens rights, my first thought is the taliban, my second thought is Islamic State. Im only telling you the facts.

Don't apologize for being accurate.

The only thing downright disgusting in this thread are HL's views.

It's getting extremely hard for right-wingers to respect pro-choice people...

Don't worry dude. I've had sub-zero respect for "right-wingers" for years now.

 

[RavenSky]

Wrong, per usual. Unless you think a sea-slug has a "working brain":

Excuse me, but no one is talking about sea slugs. HUman DNA is human DNA. Period. No chance the baby develops into a moose or kangaroo.

Your false claim was that a human fetus has a "working brain" by 5 weeks gestation. Your were proven laughably wrong, so now you move the goalposts.

However, by your own original *reasoning*, if you are intellectually honest, this means you must agree to abortions up to 32 weeks gestation.

 

[Brian63]

Your "god" is a sadistic son-of-a-bitch who visits horrifying things like rape and torture on people?

No, PEOPLE do that. But, God can make good things come out of bad things.

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

Something like that was my reaction to the "God can make good things come out of bad things" line. Can't God also make good things come out of good things? God does not need bad things to happen, in order to make good things happen. He can make all good things all the time.

 

[Patooka]

So god is basically a cunt who is just fucking with us. I knew it!

 

[Half-Life]

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

Something like that was my reaction to the "God can make good things come out of bad things" line. Can't God also make good things come out of good things? God does not need bad things to happen, in order to make good things happen. He can make all good things all the time.

He does not NEED bad things to happen. Bad things happen. God can make good come out of the situation.

 

[Half-Life]

Wrong, per usual. Unless you think a sea-slug has a "working brain":

Excuse me, but no one is talking about sea slugs. HUman DNA is human DNA. Period. No chance the baby develops into a moose or kangaroo.

Your false claim was that a human fetus has a "working brain" by 5 weeks gestation. Your were proven laughably wrong, so now you move the goalposts.

However, by your own original *reasoning*, if you are intellectually honest, this means you must agree to abortions up to 32 weeks gestation.

Definitely not 32 weeks. Didn't you hear about the baby that was recently born at 23 weeks? 23 weeks!!!!!!!! The baby was born and nobody said, "It's still technically a fetus! We can kill it!"

23 weeks people, 23 weeks.

 

[Brian63]

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

Something like that was my reaction to the "God can make good things come out of bad things" line. Can't God also make good things come out of good things? God does not need bad things to happen, in order to make good things happen. He can make all good things all the time.

He does not NEED bad things to happen. Bad things happen. God can make good come out of the situation.

Why do bad things happen, when God has the ability to stop bad things from happening?

God does not just allow for bad things to happen, He creates the bad things in the first place. Examples are tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, dyslipidemia, headaches, and urinary tract infections. When Christians get relief of those illnesses or survive those phenomena, they often point to that as being evidence of how good God is. So if a person develops a urinary tract infection, would Christians point to that as evidence of how bad God is? No, they suddenly go quiet. The conclusion that God is good is drawn in advance of any indicating or contraindicating evidence for that assertion. Period. Fullstop. No other conclusion is allowed. The only remaining quandaries are how to perform the logistical acrobatics to explain why that should be the conclusion, as it appears more of a dogma than a reasonable interpretation of the available evidence.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Didn't you hear about the baby that was recently born at 23 weeks?

Did you?

The baby was born and nobody said, "It's still technically a fetus! We can kill it!"

No, but they did have a serious debate about whether or not to provide aggressive resuscitation because such premature babies typically have a very slim chance of non-morbidity. Meaning that nearly every single one develops some sort of severe organ or brain dysfunction and/or dies within a relatively short time after being born.

What a miracle! A severely impaired, possibly brain dead child that never knows anything but suffering and surgeries for their entire short life and that only has a 50/50 chance of surviving at all and a 13% chance of surviving without severe neurodevelopmental impairment.

Oh, and if you have the severe misfortune of giving birth prematurely in America, you're doubly fucked unless you're a millionaire:

Sinconis’ twin boys were born at 24 weeks in Oct. 2006. Sinconis’ placenta detached, and she had to deliver her sons via emergency C-section. Ethan weighed 1 lb., 6 oz.; Aidan weighed half a pound more. “My pregnancy was completely normal and healthy up until five hours before they were born,” says Sinconis, who manages a Starbucks in Seattle. “I had no idea anything would go wrong.”
...
The U.S. Institute of Medicine has calculated the annual costs associated with preterm birth at more than $26 billion. Ethan and Aidan Sinconis racked up $2.2 million in medical bills in the first 18 months after they were born. Insurance covered most of the costs, but their parents’ portion approached $450,000. “It destroyed us,” says Sinconis, 35, who has written about her family’s experience in A Pound of Hope.

She and her husband, Justin, were forced to file for bankruptcy and sold their possessions on Craigslist to generate cash. Meanwhile, the boys struggled through heart surgery and eye surgery, sepsis, rickets and brain hemorrhages. When they left the hospital after six months, they were ordered to avoid contact with the outside world. Attached to oxygen, heart monitors and feeding tubes, they remained at home in isolation for three years.

Now 5½ years old, they’re smaller than other kids their age and struggle socially because they had no playmates for their first three years. They have speech delays, but amazingly, they’re both reading and writing on a second-grade level and will start kindergarten this fall.

Theirs is ultimately a story of success, but it’s not without its glaring caveats. Ethan still has heart and lung problems, and doctor and therapist visits are still a part of the brothers’ regular routine.

That was in 2012 and with premies that made it to the 24 week threshold, which makes a significant difference, but even then you're still looking at devastating costs and life-threatening/life-altering impairments for both the child and the parents.

So, yeah, you can point to the most extreme edge of viability and find examples of aggressive modern science being able to help premature babies survive beyond the womb, but of course any discussion of the quality of life is just conveniently ignored. Medical viability is not the end of the discussion; it's the beginning.

Which means that you must be making a religious argument along the lines of "God wanted that child to be born" and who are these parents to go against God's will and the like. In which case you have hoisted yourself with your own petard, because if you assert any of that then you must also accept that an abortion is equally God's will, because the babies you're talking about would have zero chance of surviving without aggressive modern medical science. If any mother were to simply give birth to a 23 week old fetus, it would die within a matter of hours without modern medical science.

So, that must mean, to the religious, that God made modern medical science to do his will and since his will cannot be known or contravened, no matter what happens--abortion to birth--it must necessarily ALL be God's will.

In short, by attempting to prevent an abortion, you would be equally attempting to thwart God's will.

So what is it? You're simply a sadist who wishes to force unnecessary life-long suffering on others or you're trying to subvert God's will?

 

[Worldtraveller]

It's getting extremely hard for right-wingers to respect pro-choice people. You should see a bunch of comments on right-wing videos about the subject. "Leftists lecture us on how Christopher Columbus was an evil murderer while they celebrate the murder of babies."

Error: Conclusion assumed in argument. It's not a baby until it has a working brain.

Oh, so HL isn't a baby yet? Ya'll know what that means!?!?

 

[Gun Nut]

It's getting extremely hard for right-wingers to respect pro-choice people. You should see a bunch of comments on right-wing videos about the subject. "Leftists lecture us on how Christopher Columbus was an evil murderer while they celebrate the murder of babies."

Error: Conclusion assumed in argument. It's not a baby until it has a working brain.

according to god, not until it has taken its first breath. people trying to "save" the cluster of cells that has yet to emulate a living thing have very badly placed good intentions.

 

[Gun Nut]

No, it won't.

If carried to term, the end result would be a baby elephant after about 18 months.

No amount of wishful thinking on your part could ever turn this into a human.

Let me illustrate an analogy. Suppose I have lettuce, tomato, bacon, and bread on my counter. These are ingredients that will become a full sandwich. If someone comes into my house and grabs the lettuce, tomato, bacon, and bread off my counter and brings it outside and steps on it and rolls it all in dirt, they have destroyed my sandwich, even though it was not fully at the "end result" of sandwich yet. I can not make a sandwich now.

You certainly couldn't have made a cheese and pickle sandwich out of lettuce, tomato, bacon, and bread.

And pretending that you could just makes you look idiotic.

But under the terms of your analogy, they destroyed your ingredients. Those ingredients weren't a sandwich, any more than they were a bacon salad with croutons.

A thing that has the potential to become something else is not that something else.

A pile of bricks isn't a house. An acorn isn't an oak tree. An egg isn't a chicken.

A thing that will become a human still has human as the end result. There is no chance a woman can get pregnant and then it turns into a chicken or a moose. It's human all the way!

It is more likely than not that a fertilized egg will fail to "take" and become a person. It is false to say that it WILL become human.... it MAY become human (but statistically, not likely). Therefore, according to your logic, every single sperm cell you have MAY become a human, therefore it is murder to knowingly spill any anywhere but inside a fertile woman.

"Every sperm is sacred" (google it)

 

[Gun Nut]

Your "god" is a sadistic son-of-a-bitch who visits horrifying things like rape and torture on people?

No, PEOPLE do that. But, God can make good things come out of bad things.

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

and the next logical step would be, "if your god makes good of what seems bad, then abortion seeming bad to you is just your failure to recognize gods good plan".

 

[Gun Nut]

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

Something like that was my reaction to the "God can make good things come out of bad things" line. Can't God also make good things come out of good things? God does not need bad things to happen, in order to make good things happen. He can make all good things all the time.

He does not NEED bad things to happen. Bad things happen. God can make good come out of the situation.

right... god makes good things come out of abortions... I knew it!

 

[Playball40]

OH BULL SHIT. god can't do jack because god is imaginary.

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

Something like that was my reaction to the "God can make good things come out of bad things" line. Can't God also make good things come out of good things? God does not need bad things to happen, in order to make good things happen. He can make all good things all the time.

He does not NEED bad things to happen. Bad things happen. God can make good come out of the situation.