Can Roe v Wade be overturned?

[RavenSky]

IF your god "can make good things come out of bad things", then your god can make bad things not happen. If your god chooses not to, then he is evil... or non-existent. One of those.

Something like that was my reaction to the "God can make good things come out of bad things" line. Can't God also make good things come out of good things? God does not need bad things to happen, in order to make good things happen. He can make all good things all the time.

He does not NEED bad things to happen. Bad things happen. God can make good come out of the situation.

Then your god could make GOOD things happen instead of bad things. But doesn't.

 

[RavenSky]

Your false claim was that a human fetus has a "working brain" by 5 weeks gestation. Your were proven laughably wrong, so now you move the goalposts.

However, by your own original *reasoning*, if you are intellectually honest, this means you must agree to abortions up to 32 weeks gestation.

Definitely not 32 weeks. Didn't you hear about the baby that was recently born at 23 weeks? 23 weeks!!!!!!!! The baby was born and nobody said, "It's still technically a fetus! We can kill it!"

You are correct. NOBODY SAID THAT!!! No one anywhere in the pro-choice movement has ever suggested killing already born children. That's what Republicans do.

23 weeks people, 23 weeks.

Hey dude... it was YOUR reasoning. YOU chose the criteria of a "working brain". That's 32 weeks.

 

[RavenSky]

Did you?



No, but they did have a serious debate about whether or not to provide aggressive resuscitation because such premature babies typically have a very slim chance of non-morbidity. Meaning that nearly every single one develops some sort of severe organ or brain dysfunction and/or dies within a relatively short time after being born.

What a miracle! A severely impaired, possibly brain dead child that never knows anything but suffering and surgeries for their entire short life and that only has a 50/50 chance of surviving at all and a 13% chance of surviving without severe neurodevelopmental impairment.

Oh, and if you have the severe misfortune of giving birth prematurely in America, you're doubly fucked unless you're a millionaire:

Sinconis’ twin boys were born at 24 weeks in Oct. 2006. Sinconis’ placenta detached, and she had to deliver her sons via emergency C-section. Ethan weighed 1 lb., 6 oz.; Aidan weighed half a pound more. “My pregnancy was completely normal and healthy up until five hours before they were born,” says Sinconis, who manages a Starbucks in Seattle. “I had no idea anything would go wrong.”
...
The U.S. Institute of Medicine has calculated the annual costs associated with preterm birth at more than $26 billion. Ethan and Aidan Sinconis racked up $2.2 million in medical bills in the first 18 months after they were born. Insurance covered most of the costs, but their parents’ portion approached $450,000. “It destroyed us,” says Sinconis, 35, who has written about her family’s experience in A Pound of Hope.

She and her husband, Justin, were forced to file for bankruptcy and sold their possessions on Craigslist to generate cash. Meanwhile, the boys struggled through heart surgery and eye surgery, sepsis, rickets and brain hemorrhages. When they left the hospital after six months, they were ordered to avoid contact with the outside world. Attached to oxygen, heart monitors and feeding tubes, they remained at home in isolation for three years.

Now 5½ years old, they’re smaller than other kids their age and struggle socially because they had no playmates for their first three years. They have speech delays, but amazingly, they’re both reading and writing on a second-grade level and will start kindergarten this fall.

Theirs is ultimately a story of success, but it’s not without its glaring caveats. Ethan still has heart and lung problems, and doctor and therapist visits are still a part of the brothers’ regular routine.

That was in 2012 and with premies that made it to the 24 week threshold, which makes a significant difference, but even then you're still looking at devastating costs and life-threatening/life-altering impairments for both the child and the parents.

So, yeah, you can point to the most extreme edge of viability and find examples of aggressive modern science being able to help premature babies survive beyond the womb, but of course any discussion of the quality of life is just conveniently ignored. Medical viability is not the end of the discussion; it's the beginning.

Which means that you must be making a religious argument along the lines of "God wanted that child to be born" and who are these parents to go against God's will and the like. In which case you have hoisted yourself with your own petard, because if you assert any of that then you must also accept that an abortion is equally God's will, because the babies you're talking about would have zero chance of surviving without aggressive modern medical science. If any mother were to simply give birth to a 23 week old fetus, it would die within a matter of hours without modern medical science.

So, that must mean, to the religious, that God made modern medical science to do his will and since his will cannot be known or contravened, no matter what happens--abortion to birth--it must necessarily ALL be God's will.

In short, by attempting to prevent an abortion, you would be equally attempting to thwart God's will.

So what is it? You're simply a sadist who wishes to force unnecessary life-long suffering on others or you're trying to subvert God's will?

^^^ That

 

[Rhea]

Why does having free will mean bad things are going to happen? We can have free will and still have only good things happen (remember that with God, all things are possible.).

This question makes no sense. People choose to do bad things. You can't have free will and have only good things happen. This would make us unthinking robots.

Right! Like we’ll be in Heaven!
In heaven all of the souls are unthinking robots. God promised.

 

[RavenSky]

and the next logical step would be, "if your god makes good of what seems bad, then abortion seeming bad to you is just your failure to recognize gods good plan".

Excellent point

 

[RavenSky]

There is good that comes out of bad things.

And more often than not, bad that comes out of bad things, but gee, Pollyanna. It's only people's lives we're talking about casually destroying with a bumper-sticker platitude, so gee willikers, let's use the power of the State for force other people into compliance with voodoo beliefs because "there's good things what cums outa bads, hyuck!"

Nobody forces anyone to do anything. Unless a woman is raped, she made the choice to have sex with another man. One thing that can happen as a result of sex is pregnancy. If you don't want the risk of pregnancy, don't have sex.

This is not some radical new idea here. This is common sense and safety.

This is the classic misogynistic attempt to control and punish women. EVERY so-called discussion about a woman's right to control her own reproductive choices ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS comes down to religious fuckwads, right-wing misogynists and internet trolls trotting the 'pregnancy as punishment for sex' trope.

You are boring in your predictability.

 

[laughing dog]

That's not free will. That's just unfortunate.

So why does God allow such unfortunate things to happen?

Don't know. But, one would think if your point was so wise and intellectual, everyone would become an atheist.

My point is that your response that bad things happen because of free will is moronic.

Belief in God has very little to do with wisdom or the intellectual - it requires faith which is the antithesis of the intellectual.

 

[Rhea]

and the next logical step would be, "if your god makes good of what seems bad, then abortion seeming bad to you is just your failure to recognize gods good plan".

Indeed, religiously speaking, an abortion means that a “soul” goes straight to heaven and gets a perfect body instantly with no suffering of any kind.

God willed that THIS soul, because he knew it was going to be aborted, would be welcomed straight into his arms....

Until cruel human zealots, through violence and oppression of god’s daughters, interrupted God’s plan and forced that fetus to instead endure suffering on earth and possible soul-destroying apostasy - instead of god’s planned immediate birth into heaven. God tried to spare that soul a terrible suffering by making abortion its fate. But self-righteous arrogant oppressors thwarted god’s plan by using their free will to make others suffer.


Satans work by these anti-god’s-plan-ers?



For the woman who chooses abortion, the worst she has done is commit a sin unto herself and send the fetus straight to god.

But for the anti-choice forced-birthers, the worst they have done is cause the fetus to come to term and live a brutal life that drives it away from god’s message and lands it eventually in hell for eternity.


Who’s the real asshole here?
(Corollary: why are Christians so freaking terrified of getting to heaven or seeing someone else go there?)

 

[RavenSky]

He does not NEED bad things to happen. Bad things happen. God can make good come out of the situation.

Then why does he let bad things happen?

Because we have free will. You guys are just going in circles now.

Actually, it's you who is chasing your own tail.

No gods exist.

 

[RavenSky]

Why does having free will mean bad things are going to happen? We can have free will and still have only good things happen (remember that with God, all things are possible.).

This question makes no sense. People choose to do bad things. You can't have free will and have only good things happen. This would make us unthinking robots.

You make no sense.

I can have free will to chose between chocolate ice cream or lemon pound cake, but either choice would be a good thing.

 

[RavenSky]

Because we have free will. You guys are just going in circles now.

How does free will enter into some good child getting terminal cancer? Or babies born with spinabifada?

That's not free will. That's just unfortunate.

That your god made happen

 

[Rhea]

That's not free will. That's just unfortunate.

That your god made happen

Maybe he’s one of those christians that have a weak and whiney god, unable to act or change events except by wailing to its humans and hoping they’ll act for it?

I’ve heard a lot about that whiney bratty god. It wants this and wants that, but can’t communicate very well, or make anything happen so it cries until it gets the caregiver to capitulate and buy the candy.

 

[Brian63]

Think of the practically-infinite number of diseases that God could invent and inflict on people, but has not. Instead, he has only crafted a relative handful of types of illnesses, and only select people get them at certain times of their life (eventually we will all get some, unless we die prior due to an accidental death or such). My, how good and loving God is to only inflict 0.00000000000001% of the eternal torture that he can (and eventually will later on) inflict on us, unless he swear to forever obey Him and kiss His Glorious Ass.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Because we have free will. You guys are just going in circles now.

Actually, it's you who is chasing your own tail.

No gods exist.

But, the Bible says if we truly become Christains, if we are saved, we won't be able to sin anymore. Not just won't want to, like the atheist who doesn't want to kill, but not able. So clearly, free will is not a big deal for the Christain God. The Saved are unoffending robots.

As for the rest of us, remember the closing lines of the Great Flood. God realizes, after a couple hits of sacrifice smoke, that mankind is inherently wicked. It's in our nature, the way we were originally made. Which makes it fucking mental to expect anything different out of us, up until we accept Jeebus into our hearts and a behavioral governor is installed....

 

[lpetrich]

As to who would have been aborted, I have composed a longer list:

Julia Vipsania Agrippina (“the Elder”) in 12 CE -- Caligula
Julia Augusta Agrippina (“the Younger”) in 37 CE -- Nero
Aminah bint Wahb in around 570 -- Mohammed, founder of Islam
Hoelun in around 1161 -- Temüjin, a.k.a. Genghis Khan
Hüma Hatun in 1431 -- Mehmed the Conqueror, of Constantinople
Nancy Hanks in 1808 -- Abraham Lincoln
Susannah Wedgwood in 1808 -- Charles Darwin
Henrietta Pressburg in 1817 -- Karl Marx
Maria Alexandrovna Blank in 1869 -- Vladimir Lenin
Ekaterina Geladze in 1878 -- Joseph Stalin
Anne Purcell Higgins in 1879 -- Margaret Sanger
Sara Ann Delano in 1881 -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Rosa Maltoni in 1883 -- Benito Mussolini
Klara Poelzl in 1888 -- Adolf Hitler
Franziska Tiefenbrunn in 1892 -- Hermann Goering
Wen Qimei in 1893 -- Mao Zedong
Katharina Odenhausen in 1897 -- Joseph Goebbels
Anna Maria Heyder in 1900 -- Heinrich Himmler
Hajieh Agha Khanum in 1902 -- Ruhollah Khomeini
Maria Schefferling in 1905 -- Adolf Eichmann
Lynetta Putnam in 1930 -- Jim Jones
Kathleen Maddox in 1934 -- Charles Manson
Nancy Lombardi in 1939 -- Nancy Pelosi
Dora Glassberg in 1941 -- Bernie Sanders
Virginia Dell Cassidy in 1946 -- Bill Clinton
Dorothy Emma Howell in 1947 -- Hillary Clinton
Pauline Reed in 1948 -- Elizabeth Warren
Pauline LaFon in 1947 -- Al Gore
Betty Broder in 1952 -- David Berkowitz, "Son of Sam"
Hamida al-Attas in 1956 -- Osama bin Laden
Joyce Annette Flint in 1959 -- Jeffrey Dahmer
Stanley Ann Dunham in 1961 -- Barack Obama
Shyamala Gopalan in 1964 -- Kamala Harris
Bianca Cortez in 1989 -- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

 

[Half-Life]

and the next logical step would be, "if your god makes good of what seems bad, then abortion seeming bad to you is just your failure to recognize gods good plan".

Indeed, religiously speaking, an abortion means that a “soul” goes straight to heaven and gets a perfect body instantly with no suffering of any kind.

God willed that THIS soul, because he knew it was going to be aborted, would be welcomed straight into his arms....

Until cruel human zealots, through violence and oppression of god’s daughters, interrupted God’s plan and forced that fetus to instead endure suffering on earth and possible soul-destroying apostasy - instead of god’s planned immediate birth into heaven. God tried to spare that soul a terrible suffering by making abortion its fate. But self-righteous arrogant oppressors thwarted god’s plan by using their free will to make others suffer.


Satans work by these anti-god’s-plan-ers?



For the woman who chooses abortion, the worst she has done is commit a sin unto herself and send the fetus straight to god.

But for the anti-choice forced-birthers, the worst they have done is cause the fetus to come to term and live a brutal life that drives it away from god’s message and lands it eventually in hell for eternity.


Who’s the real asshole here?
(Corollary: why are Christians so freaking terrified of getting to heaven or seeing someone else go there?)

In no way does it follow that we should legalize killing babies just so they go to Heaven. These arguments are scraping the bottom of the barrel now. Every rational Christian would laugh uproariously at your suggestion until possibly they cracked a rib from laughter.

 

[Half-Life]

Because we have free will. You guys are just going in circles now.

Actually, it's you who is chasing your own tail.

No gods exist.

But, the Bible says if we truly become Christains, if we are saved, we won't be able to sin anymore. Not just won't want to, like the atheist who doesn't want to kill, but not able. So clearly, free will is not a big deal for the Christain God. The Saved are unoffending robots.

As for the rest of us, remember the closing lines of the Great Flood. God realizes, after a couple hits of sacrifice smoke, that mankind is inherently wicked. It's in our nature, the way we were originally made. Which makes it fucking mental to expect anything different out of us, up until we accept Jeebus into our hearts and a behavioral governor is installed....

Imagine taking all the people on Earth that do good and we separate them from the people who do bad. Free will is still there in both groups, geniuses.

 

[Trausti]

As to who would have been aborted, I have composed a longer list:

Julia Vipsania Agrippina (“the Elder”) in 12 CE -- Caligula
Julia Augusta Agrippina (“the Younger”) in 37 CE -- Nero
Aminah bint Wahb in around 570 -- Mohammed, founder of Islam
Hoelun in around 1161 -- Temüjin, a.k.a. Genghis Khan
Hüma Hatun in 1431 -- Mehmed the Conqueror, of Constantinople
Nancy Hanks in 1808 -- Abraham Lincoln
Susannah Wedgwood in 1808 -- Charles Darwin
Henrietta Pressburg in 1817 -- Karl Marx
Maria Alexandrovna Blank in 1869 -- Vladimir Lenin
Ekaterina Geladze in 1878 -- Joseph Stalin
Anne Purcell Higgins in 1879 -- Margaret Sanger
Sara Ann Delano in 1881 -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Rosa Maltoni in 1883 -- Benito Mussolini
Klara Poelzl in 1888 -- Adolf Hitler
Franziska Tiefenbrunn in 1892 -- Hermann Goering
Wen Qimei in 1893 -- Mao Zedong
Katharina Odenhausen in 1897 -- Joseph Goebbels
Anna Maria Heyder in 1900 -- Heinrich Himmler
Hajieh Agha Khanum in 1902 -- Ruhollah Khomeini
Maria Schefferling in 1905 -- Adolf Eichmann
Lynetta Putnam in 1930 -- Jim Jones
Kathleen Maddox in 1934 -- Charles Manson
Nancy Lombardi in 1939 -- Nancy Pelosi
Dora Glassberg in 1941 -- Bernie Sanders
Virginia Dell Cassidy in 1946 -- Bill Clinton
Dorothy Emma Howell in 1947 -- Hillary Clinton
Pauline Reed in 1948 -- Elizabeth Warren
Pauline LaFon in 1947 -- Al Gore
Betty Broder in 1952 -- David Berkowitz, "Son of Sam"
Hamida al-Attas in 1956 -- Osama bin Laden
Joyce Annette Flint in 1959 -- Jeffrey Dahmer
Stanley Ann Dunham in 1961 -- Barack Obama
Shyamala Gopalan in 1964 -- Kamala Harris
Bianca Cortez in 1989 -- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Damn you got a lot of free time.

 

[Worldtraveller]

So, did I miss it, or did HL ever give an answer on circumcision?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But, the Bible says if we truly become Christains, if we are saved, we won't be able to sin anymore. Not just won't want to, like the atheist who doesn't want to kill, but not able. So clearly, free will is not a big deal for the Christain God. The Saved are unoffending robots.

As for the rest of us, remember the closing lines of the Great Flood. God realizes, after a couple hits of sacrifice smoke, that mankind is inherently wicked. It's in our nature, the way we were originally made. Which makes it fucking mental to expect anything different out of us, up until we accept Jeebus into our hearts and a behavioral governor is installed....

Imagine taking all the people on Earth that do good and we separate them from the people who do bad. Free will is still there in both groups, geniuses.

So you are pro-choice after all.

Just think of all the good god does with those bad abortions.