Can We Discuss Sex & Gender / Transgender People?

[Loren Pechtel]

We need 2 questions answered:

What is the definition of "man" and "woman?"
What is the difference between "men" and "women?"
My position is that it is impossible to define these terms which include both trans men and trans women. I wish it wasn't this way, but I must yield to logic here along with the law of non-contradiction: something can not be both X and not X at the same time.

I really wish someone here would do it.

These terms can't be defined perfectly. Many terms can't be.

 

[Jarhyn]

A good definition would be a definition that can include trans men and trans women.

But we're up against the limits of the language and the culture the language derived from.

There is no single word that accurately and completely captures the usual meanings of the words we use.

How about this.
Use the words male and female to refer to an individual's sex. By "sex", I'm referring to an individual's physical characteristics. Use man and woman to refer to an individual's gender. By "gender", I'm referring to an individual's identity. Their mental image of themselves, and also the way that they present themselves to other people.

Instead of using individual words to describe the entirety of the complex human experience, we use terms. Like male woman, or female woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a male woman, Emily Lake is a female woman. I am a male man, @Jarhyn 's spouse is a female man.

How about that?
Tom

I heard trans people find that highly offensive because they don't view themselves as a female man or a male woman. They view themselves as just a man or woman or they say "i am male to female" or "female to male." They would be very offended if you refereed to them as a male woman or a female man. So, this won't work.

We also need a definition because the Caitlyn Jenner situation becomes confusing. If someone never heard of Caitlyn Jenner before and someone said to them, "Kylie Jenner has 2 moms. They had sex with each other and had Kylie Jenner," this person would be highly confused as to what that means. They would ask, "How can 2 women impregnate each other?"

Only for fairly stupid people, who become "confused" as a rhetorical technique that is convincing to no one but themselves. There are plenty of ways two women might come to have a daughter, and there's no reason why any of them would be anyone's business but their own. A mother is a mother, however they became a mother. Adoptions, previous marriages, and past medical therapies are not something anyone owes disclosure of to you or anyone else.

Correct except: they do owe disclosure to their children. It is up to those children to decide what to do of it. They do not owe explanations of their reasons nor anatomy.

One does not hide from someone else any part of that person's story, should they wish to hear it, as long as they know the details most likely relevant to the decision to accept or reject undisclosure.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Only for fairly stupid people, who become "confused" as a rhetorical technique

Well, there are also straight-up-stupid people. My wife and i were stationed in The South right after we married, and often met confused people. They would take her order, then ring up her total, because it never occurred to them that i could be with her.
And one time on base i honked at my wife as i drove by on errands for Group 2. The chief i was chauffeuring assumed i was honking at the very pregnant white woman beside her, and asked about the coming kid.
Some people are very confused, to this day, by my choice to marry a black woman.

I gotta say, their confusion is really nothing i am in a hurry to bother with. The world has moved on and we need not go out of OUR way to cater to stick-in-the-muds who want to live somewhere in yesterday.

I mean, i use 'wife' to mean 'wife' without warning anyone about miscegenation. I say 'sons' without amplifying terms like 'half-castes.'

 

[Politesse]

A good definition would be a definition that can include trans men and trans women.

But we're up against the limits of the language and the culture the language derived from.

There is no single word that accurately and completely captures the usual meanings of the words we use.

How about this.
Use the words male and female to refer to an individual's sex. By "sex", I'm referring to an individual's physical characteristics. Use man and woman to refer to an individual's gender. By "gender", I'm referring to an individual's identity. Their mental image of themselves, and also the way that they present themselves to other people.

Instead of using individual words to describe the entirety of the complex human experience, we use terms. Like male woman, or female woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a male woman, Emily Lake is a female woman. I am a male man, @Jarhyn 's spouse is a female man.

How about that?
Tom

I heard trans people find that highly offensive because they don't view themselves as a female man or a male woman. They view themselves as just a man or woman or they say "i am male to female" or "female to male." They would be very offended if you refereed to them as a male woman or a female man. So, this won't work.

We also need a definition because the Caitlyn Jenner situation becomes confusing. If someone never heard of Caitlyn Jenner before and someone said to them, "Kylie Jenner has 2 moms. They had sex with each other and had Kylie Jenner," this person would be highly confused as to what that means. They would ask, "How can 2 women impregnate each other?"

Only for fairly stupid people, who become "confused" as a rhetorical technique that is convincing to no one but themselves. There are plenty of ways two women might come to have a daughter, and there's no reason why any of them would be anyone's business but their own. A mother is a mother, however they became a mother. Adoptions, previous marriages, and past medical therapies are not something anyone owes disclosure of to you or anyone else.

Correct except: they do owe disclosure to their children. It is up to those children to decide what to do of it. They do not owe explanations of their reasons nor anatomy.

One does not hide from someone else any part of that person's story, should they wish to hear it, as long as they know the details most likely relevant to the decision to accept or reject undisclosure.

I did not mean to imply that children aren't due the facts of their parentage, that can be important for medical and other reasons. But I don't just start telling random strangers who I do or have had sex with, what surgeries I've had performed, or any other deeply invasive personal information just to assuage their "confusion" about whatever parts of my life they've chosen to take offense at. I spent the first thirty years of my life in a closet to appease morons like that, and what did I get in return? I'm done with it, they can just shove off and be "confused" by themselves somewhere where I don't have to deal with them.

 

[Jarhyn]

A good definition would be a definition that can include trans men and trans women.

But we're up against the limits of the language and the culture the language derived from.

There is no single word that accurately and completely captures the usual meanings of the words we use.

How about this.
Use the words male and female to refer to an individual's sex. By "sex", I'm referring to an individual's physical characteristics. Use man and woman to refer to an individual's gender. By "gender", I'm referring to an individual's identity. Their mental image of themselves, and also the way that they present themselves to other people.

Instead of using individual words to describe the entirety of the complex human experience, we use terms. Like male woman, or female woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a male woman, Emily Lake is a female woman. I am a male man, @Jarhyn 's spouse is a female man.

How about that?
Tom

I heard trans people find that highly offensive because they don't view themselves as a female man or a male woman. They view themselves as just a man or woman or they say "i am male to female" or "female to male." They would be very offended if you refereed to them as a male woman or a female man. So, this won't work.

We also need a definition because the Caitlyn Jenner situation becomes confusing. If someone never heard of Caitlyn Jenner before and someone said to them, "Kylie Jenner has 2 moms. They had sex with each other and had Kylie Jenner," this person would be highly confused as to what that means. They would ask, "How can 2 women impregnate each other?"

Only for fairly stupid people, who become "confused" as a rhetorical technique that is convincing to no one but themselves. There are plenty of ways two women might come to have a daughter, and there's no reason why any of them would be anyone's business but their own. A mother is a mother, however they became a mother. Adoptions, previous marriages, and past medical therapies are not something anyone owes disclosure of to you or anyone else.

Correct except: they do owe disclosure to their children. It is up to those children to decide what to do of it. They do not owe explanations of their reasons nor anatomy.

One does not hide from someone else any part of that person's story, should they wish to hear it, as long as they know the details most likely relevant to the decision to accept or reject undisclosure.

I did not mean to imply that children aren't due the facts of their parentage, that can be important for medical and other reasons. But I don't just start telling random strangers who I do or have had sex with, what surgeries I've had performed, or any other deeply invasive personal information just to assuage their "confusion" about whatever parts of my life they've chosen to take offense at. Shove off!

I did not mean to imply you owe anyone else not I nor anyone else owing others to tell their story; merely that telling their story for them is an offense. I wish to be very precise so that nits cannot be picked of a good idea.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

A good definition would be a definition that can include trans men and trans women.

But we're up against the limits of the language and the culture the language derived from.

There is no single word that accurately and completely captures the usual meanings of the words we use.

How about this.
Use the words male and female to refer to an individual's sex. By "sex", I'm referring to an individual's physical characteristics. Use man and woman to refer to an individual's gender. By "gender", I'm referring to an individual's identity. Their mental image of themselves, and also the way that they present themselves to other people.

Instead of using individual words to describe the entirety of the complex human experience, we use terms. Like male woman, or female woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a male woman, Emily Lake is a female woman. I am a male man, @Jarhyn 's spouse is a female man.

How about that?
Tom

Isn't it a little bit simpler if I just tell you I'm a trans-woman? The semantics stuff can get kind of stupid.

If I tell you that I am transgender, then you know what I was born looking like.

Again, I don't have to give you that information. A lot of transgender people get tired of these kinds of conversations, and they just go full stealth. I can't say that I can blame them, either. Transphobes can be pretty unhinged. However, I prefer to not avoid things.

 

[Metaphor]

A good definition would be a definition that can include trans men and trans women.

But we're up against the limits of the language and the culture the language derived from.

There is no single word that accurately and completely captures the usual meanings of the words we use.

How about this.
Use the words male and female to refer to an individual's sex. By "sex", I'm referring to an individual's physical characteristics. Use man and woman to refer to an individual's gender. By "gender", I'm referring to an individual's identity. Their mental image of themselves, and also the way that they present themselves to other people.

Instead of using individual words to describe the entirety of the complex human experience, we use terms. Like male woman, or female woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a male woman, Emily Lake is a female woman. I am a male man, @Jarhyn 's spouse is a female man.

How about that?
Tom

Isn't it a little bit simpler if I just tell you I'm a trans-woman? The semantics stuff can get kind of stupid.

If I tell you that I am transgender, then you know what I was born looking like.

Again, I don't have to give you that information. A lot of transgender people get tired of these kinds of conversations, and they just go full stealth. I can't say that I can blame them, either. Transphobes can be pretty unhinged. However, I prefer to not avoid things.

What percentage of transwomen do you think 'pass', and in what contexts?

 

[Jarhyn]

A good definition would be a definition that can include trans men and trans women.

But we're up against the limits of the language and the culture the language derived from.

There is no single word that accurately and completely captures the usual meanings of the words we use.

How about this.
Use the words male and female to refer to an individual's sex. By "sex", I'm referring to an individual's physical characteristics. Use man and woman to refer to an individual's gender. By "gender", I'm referring to an individual's identity. Their mental image of themselves, and also the way that they present themselves to other people.

Instead of using individual words to describe the entirety of the complex human experience, we use terms. Like male woman, or female woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a male woman, Emily Lake is a female woman. I am a male man, @Jarhyn 's spouse is a female man.

How about that?
Tom

Isn't it a little bit simpler if I just tell you I'm a trans-woman? The semantics stuff can get kind of stupid.

If I tell you that I am transgender, then you know what I was born looking like.

Again, I don't have to give you that information. A lot of transgender people get tired of these kinds of conversations, and they just go full stealth. I can't say that I can blame them, either. Transphobes can be pretty unhinged. However, I prefer to not avoid things.

What percentage of transwomen do you think 'pass', and in what contexts?

 

[SigmatheZeta]

A good definition would be a definition that can include trans men and trans women.

But we're up against the limits of the language and the culture the language derived from.

There is no single word that accurately and completely captures the usual meanings of the words we use.

How about this.
Use the words male and female to refer to an individual's sex. By "sex", I'm referring to an individual's physical characteristics. Use man and woman to refer to an individual's gender. By "gender", I'm referring to an individual's identity. Their mental image of themselves, and also the way that they present themselves to other people.

Instead of using individual words to describe the entirety of the complex human experience, we use terms. Like male woman, or female woman. Caitlyn Jenner is a male woman, Emily Lake is a female woman. I am a male man, @Jarhyn 's spouse is a female man.

How about that?
Tom

Isn't it a little bit simpler if I just tell you I'm a trans-woman? The semantics stuff can get kind of stupid.

If I tell you that I am transgender, then you know what I was born looking like.

Again, I don't have to give you that information. A lot of transgender people get tired of these kinds of conversations, and they just go full stealth. I can't say that I can blame them, either. Transphobes can be pretty unhinged. However, I prefer to not avoid things.

What percentage of transwomen do you think 'pass', and in what contexts?

Why should I worry about "passing" at all? I don't want to. I have no qualms over people knowing that I am a transgender woman. I am not obligated to wear make-up, and I am not obligated to wear clothing that does not serve a function. I am a person that likes to work and play. I don't feel right if I'm not dirty and smelly.

That's one reason why i don't like hanging out with other transgender people. There is so much pressure to "pass," and I think, "Why in the fuck should I give a shit?" I've been on HRT for a while, and whatever dumb word someone chooses to call me, I look pretty.

Among the people that I like to live and work around, the tradition is to call someone like me a woman, but I honestly would not care if they called me a potato. What matters is that they generally respect me, and they like me as a person.

If someone wants to stay around people that don't respect them or like them, then I question their judgment.

 

[Metaphor]

Why should I worry about "passing" at all? I don't want to. I have no qualms over people knowing that I am a transgender woman. I am not obligated to wear make-up, and I am not obligated to wear clothing that does not serve a function. I am a person that likes to work and play. I don't feel right if I'm not dirty and smelly.

I ask because people like Jarhyn are obsessed with genitals, and believe that the only way people know some people are trans is by 'looking at what is inside their pants'. People like Jarhyn seem to believe nobody would ever know somebody else is trans unless their privacy has been invaded.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Why should I worry about "passing" at all? I don't want to. I have no qualms over people knowing that I am a transgender woman. I am not obligated to wear make-up, and I am not obligated to wear clothing that does not serve a function. I am a person that likes to work and play. I don't feel right if I'm not dirty and smelly.

I ask because people like Jarhyn are obsessed with genitals, and believe that the only way people know some people are trans is by 'looking at what is inside their pants'. People like Jarhyn seem to believe nobody would ever know somebody else is trans unless their privacy has been invaded.

A lot of people, now, are transitioned as children, so it's getting harder, these days, to tell. I started a little bit later in life, so in my case, it does kind of stand out. If I had started in adolescence, it would have been a little bit different.

Actually, I take that back. I look reasonably attractive, by feminine standards, and if I had enough foundation make-up on, then I could go stealth if I really wanted to. I just don't have the inclination.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I noticed something. Tucker Carlson is trying to lambast Pete Buttigieg for taking paternity leave. Some drivel about 'real men' don't do paternity leave.
Somewhere else, a poster insists that gay = pedophile, so Pete taking leave means he and his husband are being paid to molest their kids.

What i don't notice is anyone insisiting that you have to be married to have paternity leave, and that they're not married.
This was the big deal 16 years ago. People didn't want to let samesex couples' committments be referred to as 'marriage.' Or let people in such partnerships use terms like 'husband' or 'wife' because 'WORDS HAVE MEANINGS!' God will be coming soon for us for abusing his terms like: wedding, wedded, wed, wedding cake, wedding ceremony.

There was a need, i was told, to make up special terms for two guys in a commitment, two girls in a commitment, etc.

But, you know? We've adapted. We've moved on. The terms have expanded through usage to include Samesex and Alternatingsex couples, both. A coworker who used to be adamant that even 'civil unions' were going to destroy this country was showing me picture on his phone from 'my first lesbian wedding.' His granddaughter made a beautiful bride.

 

[Jarhyn]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

Unless a transgender person is voluntarily out, which means they can probably stand up to weirdos that do that creepy "giving a shit" thing, I think you are more likely to insult some grandmother with menopausal hirsutism than call out a trans-woman.

More of us are out, these days, to be fair.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

Some folks will writhe in agony if they cannot label and categorized all others.

 

[Jarhyn]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

Unless a transgender person is voluntarily out, which means they can probably stand up to weirdos that do that creepy "giving a shit" thing, I think you are more likely to insult some grandmother with menopausal hirsutism than call out a trans-woman.

More of us are out, these days, to be fair.

Which is my whole point, here. There are appropriate contexts for "scientific/academic" classification. These contexts relate specifically to the understanding of root causative conditions for similar outcomes so they may be inflicted or prevented or reversed as the case may be.

They do not relate to social interactions. The rules there acknowledge concepts of privacy. That acknowledgement of privacy involves that we have public lives and private lives and public parts and private parts as well.

Do we not, in this thread (or perhaps one of the other bullshit threads) have an example posted of a disastrous false identification?

 

[Trausti]

Man, these folks turning "you can't tell hard cases, and you shouldn't even be assuming which ones are easy cases; the correct action is to ask and then accept the pronouns you get" to a straw-man of "you can't tell, nobody can tell, for anyone".

It's not "you can't" it's that "you cannot, reliably, particularly for the population in question and playing that game is shitty to you and everyone around you."

Some folks will writhe in agony if they cannot label and categorized all others.

Nature hardwired our ability to discern male and women. A biological female doesn’t have to do anything to appear a woman. A trans must do a lot of work for passable mimicry. Nothing to do with labels just Nature’s cues.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why should I worry about "passing" at all? I don't want to. I have no qualms over people knowing that I am a transgender woman. I am not obligated to wear make-up, and I am not obligated to wear clothing that does not serve a function. I am a person that likes to work and play. I don't feel right if I'm not dirty and smelly.

I ask because people like Jarhyn are obsessed with genitals, and believe that the only way people know some people are trans is by 'looking at what is inside their pants'. People like Jarhyn seem to believe nobody would ever know somebody else is trans unless their privacy has been invaded.

Huh! you're the one that keeps insisting that genitalia is the only deciding factor and the rest is just "thoughts in heads".

 

[Jarhyn]

Why should I worry about "passing" at all? I don't want to. I have no qualms over people knowing that I am a transgender woman. I am not obligated to wear make-up, and I am not obligated to wear clothing that does not serve a function. I am a person that likes to work and play. I don't feel right if I'm not dirty and smelly.

I ask because people like Jarhyn are obsessed with genitals, and believe that the only way people know some people are trans is by 'looking at what is inside their pants'. People like Jarhyn seem to believe nobody would ever know somebody else is trans unless their privacy has been invaded.

Huh! you're the one that keeps insisting that genitalia is the only deciding factor and the rest is just "thoughts in heads".

Another aspect is this conflation between "knowing" and "assuming".

People cannot know short of looking, what is in someone's pants, and that whatever-it-is is merely a bad proxy for whatever it is you really want to know unless that thing is exactly "do they have a penis?" Which is something nobody is entitled to know and which it is exceedingly rude to assume. People can assume and probably be right, but it's still exceedingly rude.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why should I worry about "passing" at all? I don't want to. I have no qualms over people knowing that I am a transgender woman. I am not obligated to wear make-up, and I am not obligated to wear clothing that does not serve a function. I am a person that likes to work and play. I don't feel right if I'm not dirty and smelly.

I ask because people like Jarhyn are obsessed with genitals, and believe that the only way people know some people are trans is by 'looking at what is inside their pants'. People like Jarhyn seem to believe nobody would ever know somebody else is trans unless their privacy has been invaded.

Huh! you're the one that keeps insisting that genitalia is the only deciding factor and the rest is just "thoughts in heads".

Another aspect is this conflation between "knowing" and "assuming".

People cannot know short of looking, what is in someone's pants, and that whatever-it-is is merely a bad proxy for whatever it is you really want to know unless that thing is exactly "do they have a penis?" Which is something nobody is entitled to know and which it is exceedingly rude to assume. People can assume and probably be right, but it's still exceedingly rude.

Agreed. Why is it so important to know what's in people's pants. Does the genitalia of the clerk at Safeway really matter to checking out your groceries? Do you think they're going to push your items passed the scanner with their penis? It must be hell to worry about this so much.