Can We Discuss Sex & Gender / Transgender People?

[Emily Lake]

Have you tried a dictionary? I obviously recommend Merriam-Websters:

Merriam-Websters : woman

3: distinctively feminine nature

Hooray! Feminine gay males are women whether they like it or not!!!

d(1): one possessing in high degree the qualities considered distinctive of manhood (such as courage, strength, and vigor)

Woohoo! All females who serve in the military are men whether they like it or not!

You're taking euphemistic definitions that take poetic license and assuming that they're somehow useful in this discussion.

 

[Emily Lake]

You're almost there. All you have to do at this point is recognize that outing what people have in their pants, including the (male) or (female), is unnecessary. Making speculations at it is similarly unnecessary.

It only becomes necessary when the other person has expressed interest in you as the person they met, and wants to know more of the kind that nobody has an obligation to answer except when they wish.

For instance YOU, Tom, may be of sufficient psychic strength to divine what is in someone's pants but similarly you may have a binoculars to peer into their window. Either is an invasion of privacy, and doubly so were you to speak of what you saw there.

It's unnecessary to make speculations or "out" that the large feline with a man is a lion and the smaller feline without a mane is a lioness.

 

[Emily Lake]

You know, I have some sympathy for those who struggle with how to respond appropriately when one encounters some whose superficial appearance —style of clothing and hair cut and possibly makeup or jewelry is at odds with perceived differing characteristics. On one hand, one may be a bit surprised or amused to see a very large, muscular man gently stroking a kitten or blowing soap bubbles —or wearing a pink tutu. A small, slight woman might be confusing to some if they see her wield an axe or throw a large drunk out of a bar or shoot hoops with big, tall guys. In fact, that might elicit some hostile reactions, even unconsciously. Or very vocally.

I’ve encountered people whose sex and/or gender was not immediately apparent—or even certain after a few short conversations. But so what? Their sex, their gender or how they chose to express it was absolutely not pertinent nor was it any of my business. If I am honest, I will admit that privately, on a couple of occasions, I speculated —because the lack of uncertainty made ME uncomfortable. For most of us, we are simply more comfortable with certainty than not. Fortunately, growing up doesn’t stop at sge 18 or 21 or 25 or 45–not if you are doing it right. It took me longer than I’d like to admit to recognize that my lack of absolute certainty about some one else’s body/business was my problem and not theirs and it was my job to accept them as they were, even if they did not fit into some small set of well defined boxes I had in my head. Their job wasn’t to make me feel comfortable but to be themselves. And, after all, I’ve never much liked it when someone tried to put me in a box either.

It depends on the situation. In 98% of the situations where I interact with someone, I give exactly zero fucks how they present (assuming it's appropriate for the venue). My spouse routinely paints his fingernails with prismatic and glittery polish. He has a collection of rainbow titanium things, including eating utensils, chop sticks, scissors, hair comb, knives, flashlights, and firearms. He brings home flowers to brighten up the place - they're not even for me! Back in college I dated a guy who regularly wore long skirts - not kilts, actual skirts. I went to high school with men who wore make-up and women who wore steel-toed boots.

I do not care how people present in the vast majority of situations.

Where I do end up with some hesitation is when a penis ends up in the girls showers in middle school. Or when a penis gets housed with female prisoners. My care is for situations where sex actually does matter.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You know, I have some sympathy for those who struggle with how to respond appropriately when one encounters some whose superficial appearance —style of clothing and hair cut and possibly makeup or jewelry is at odds with perceived differing characteristics. On one hand, one may be a bit surprised or amused to see a very large, muscular man gently stroking a kitten or blowing soap bubbles —or wearing a pink tutu. A small, slight woman might be confusing to some if they see her wield an axe or throw a large drunk out of a bar or shoot hoops with big, tall guys. In fact, that might elicit some hostile reactions, even unconsciously. Or very vocally.

I’ve encountered people whose sex and/or gender was not immediately apparent—or even certain after a few short conversations. But so what? Their sex, their gender or how they chose to express it was absolutely not pertinent nor was it any of my business. If I am honest, I will admit that privately, on a couple of occasions, I speculated —because the lack of uncertainty made ME uncomfortable. For most of us, we are simply more comfortable with certainty than not. Fortunately, growing up doesn’t stop at sge 18 or 21 or 25 or 45–not if you are doing it right. It took me longer than I’d like to admit to recognize that my lack of absolute certainty about some one else’s body/business was my problem and not theirs and it was my job to accept them as they were, even if they did not fit into some small set of well defined boxes I had in my head. Their job wasn’t to make me feel comfortable but to be themselves. And, after all, I’ve never much liked it when someone tried to put me in a box either.

It depends on the situation. In 98% of the situations where I interact with someone, I give exactly zero fucks how they present (assuming it's appropriate for the venue). My spouse routinely paints his fingernails with prismatic and glittery polish. He has a collection of rainbow titanium things, including eating utensils, chop sticks, scissors, hair comb, knives, flashlights, and firearms. He brings home flowers to brighten up the place - they're not even for me! Back in college I dated a guy who regularly wore long skirts - not kilts, actual skirts. I went to high school with men who wore make-up and women who wore steel-toed boots.

I do not care how people present in the vast majority of situations.

Where I do end up with some hesitation is when a penis ends up in the girls showers in middle school. Or when a penis gets hosed with female prisoners. My care is for situations where sex actually does matter.

Penis in the shower.

You make it sound like boys in middle or high school can just up and say they are trans, the school will open up the girls locker room to them gleefully, and then erects boys will be taking showers with the girls, none the wiser.

 

[Emily Lake]

I am trying to figure out whether you are angry at all transgender people or just certain individuals.

Mostly, I'm angry at the ideology being peddled.

I have heard from others here as well that it is the trans ideology that is the problem, but I am nut sure what is meant by "trans ideology". Can you elaborate upon what you mean by it, and whether you think anyone here is engaging in, or pushing that ideology?

For a rough summary:

• The catechism "Transwomen are Women, Transmen are Men" and act as if it's actually completely 100% literally true.
• The argument that sex is a spectrum, and the use of people with disorders of sexual development as a foil even though they have nothing to do with gender identity.
• The argument that self-declaration should be the only requirement for a person to be treated as their declared gender in all legal, social, and interpersonal interactions with no questions whatsoever
• Pushing that transgender people should be allowed to play in the sports leagues of the opposite sex with no requirements for hormone therapy at all
• Pushing policies to remove any protections or safeguards on the basis of sex, including forcing rape and domestic violence shelters to accept anyone who says they're a woman regardless of how they look or present, and without any challenge at all, regardless of the effect this has on traumatized women trying to use those services
• Reframing sexual orientation as being based on gender, and labeling people who are exclusively attracted to only one sex as a bigot, and needs to give some serious introspection to why they're so exclusionary about who they'll consider as a potential sex partner.
• Insisting that anyone who disagrees with any element of the policies being pushed is an evil bigoted transphobic TERF.
• Believes that threatening, harassing, and harming the livelihoods of females who don't accept their ideology is a perfectly acceptable thing.
• Demanding that no discussion of the above be allowed.

 

[Emily Lake]

You know, I have some sympathy for those who struggle with how to respond appropriately when one encounters some whose superficial appearance —style of clothing and hair cut and possibly makeup or jewelry is at odds with perceived differing characteristics. On one hand, one may be a bit surprised or amused to see a very large, muscular man gently stroking a kitten or blowing soap bubbles —or wearing a pink tutu. A small, slight woman might be confusing to some if they see her wield an axe or throw a large drunk out of a bar or shoot hoops with big, tall guys. In fact, that might elicit some hostile reactions, even unconsciously. Or very vocally.

I’ve encountered people whose sex and/or gender was not immediately apparent—or even certain after a few short conversations. But so what? Their sex, their gender or how they chose to express it was absolutely not pertinent nor was it any of my business. If I am honest, I will admit that privately, on a couple of occasions, I speculated —because the lack of uncertainty made ME uncomfortable. For most of us, we are simply more comfortable with certainty than not. Fortunately, growing up doesn’t stop at sge 18 or 21 or 25 or 45–not if you are doing it right. It took me longer than I’d like to admit to recognize that my lack of absolute certainty about some one else’s body/business was my problem and not theirs and it was my job to accept them as they were, even if they did not fit into some small set of well defined boxes I had in my head. Their job wasn’t to make me feel comfortable but to be themselves. And, after all, I’ve never much liked it when someone tried to put me in a box either.

It depends on the situation. In 98% of the situations where I interact with someone, I give exactly zero fucks how they present (assuming it's appropriate for the venue). My spouse routinely paints his fingernails with prismatic and glittery polish. He has a collection of rainbow titanium things, including eating utensils, chop sticks, scissors, hair comb, knives, flashlights, and firearms. He brings home flowers to brighten up the place - they're not even for me! Back in college I dated a guy who regularly wore long skirts - not kilts, actual skirts. I went to high school with men who wore make-up and women who wore steel-toed boots.

I do not care how people present in the vast majority of situations.

Where I do end up with some hesitation is when a penis ends up in the girls showers in middle school. Or when a penis gets hosed with female prisoners. My care is for situations where sex actually does matter.

Penis in the shower.

You make it sound like boys in middle or high school can just up and say they are trans, the school will open up the girls locker room to them gleefully, and then erects boys will be taking showers with the girls, none the wiser.

What exactly do you think is preventing this from happening? The regulations and policies being put in place say that anyone who is transgender or nonbinary can use whatever restrooms and showers match their gender identity, and that gender identity is completely self-declared and has no requirement for a clinical diagnosis, treatment, or even any expectation of presentation.

That's kind of the whole issue with Louden County. A male-bodied person raped a female-bodied person in the girl's restroom. The male-bodied person wore skirts pretty regularly, and the school has a policy of inclusion which supports students using the bathroom that fits whatever they say their gender is.

I mean, seriously... the state of California has decided to allow male-bodied, unaltered, undiagnosed prisoners to be housed in the women's prison solely on the basis of their claim to be transwomen.

 

[ZiprHead]

Or when a penis gets housed with female prisoners. My care is for situations where sex actually does matter.

You do realize women rape women in prison and men rape men in prison, don't you?

 

[Emily Lake]

For instance YOU, Tom, may be of sufficient psychic strength to divine what is in someone's pants but similarly you may have a binoculars to peer into their window.

Why do you keep insisting that I need to see what's inside someone's pants to tell the difference between my mom and Caitlyn Jenner?

Tom

@Jarhyn is trying really, really hard to convince people that there is no difference at all between males and females except for genitals. As long as someone has a tower wrapped around their nethers, it's nothing more than a coin-flip whether they're male or female. @Jarhyn is very deeply invested in denying that sex is relevant to anything.

 

[Jarhyn]

I am trying to figure out whether you are angry at all transgender people or just certain individuals.

Mostly, I'm angry at the ideology being peddled. I'm angry at the effect it has on gay and lesbian people, as well as on females. And I'm very angry at the thoughtless echoing of "it's all about gender" and the rewriting of history and experience to try to frame it as gender instead of as sex.

Most of the transgender people I've met, I've very much liked and get along well with, including my own niece with whom I'm very close. I don't have a problem with anyone with gender dysphoria, nor do I have any objection to transvestites. I'm a fan of people wearing whatever they want and behaving in ways they're comfortable with provided they're not harming other people.

There've only been a couple of people who claim to be transgender who I've disliked. And in this case, I say 'claimed' because I cannot understand what they think transgender means. For example, there is one person whose spouse transitioned, and who now calls themselves transgender as a result of their spouse's actions... and their gender identity has nothing to do with sex or with gender but is out of a sci-fi universe. There's another that I dislike because they insisted that they feel like a woman inside, but have no dysphoria about their body at all, are very happy with their masculine physique and male genitals and beard, dressed in stereotypical male clothing... but demanded that they should have access to places where women were naked because they are "one of us" in some unspecified fashion, and they were brutish and aggressive and physically intimidating about it.

But the ideology... that makes me steam.

So you are angry that things are changing.

You are angry that people are ceasing to care about the things you care about in the way that you care about them.

And you are angry that people are effectively convincing others as well.

You don't get to decide that "Brutish, aggressive, physically intimidating people" not be "women".

You wouldn't get that even if you could wish on a magic lamp and have all "trans-women" disappear.

Now, I know you are talking about me. And I'm so glad that I confuse you so badly.

I don't even claim to be transgender "because of" my husband. I claim that he is the one that encouraged me to finally walk through my transition. And as to genitals, well, there are a couple people who know the shape of where that is going. Anyway, that reveal is going to simmer probably a few years before I come out with it.

 

[ZiprHead]

That's kind of the whole issue with Louden County. A male-bodied person raped a female-bodied person in the girl's restroom. The male-bodied person wore skirts pretty regularly, and the school has a policy of inclusion which supports students using the bathroom that fits whatever they say their gender is.

The male bodied person was the female bodied person's boyfriend. They had sex in that bathroom several times previously. This time the female bodied person said no and the male bodied person didn't accept that.

 

[Jarhyn]

For instance YOU, Tom, may be of sufficient psychic strength to divine what is in someone's pants but similarly you may have a binoculars to peer into their window.

Why do you keep insisting that I need to see what's inside someone's pants to tell the difference between my mom and Caitlyn Jenner?

Tom

@Jarhyn is trying really, really hard to convince people that there is no difference at all between males and females except for genitals. As long as someone has a tower wrapped around their nethers, it's nothing more than a coin-flip whether they're male or female. @Jarhyn is very deeply invested in denying that sex is relevant to anything.

There is "no difference" because "males" and "females" are made up fuzzy categories that don't actually mean "is rapist" like you seem to think.

It is coincidental to any thing you have expressed wish to filter on except "who is filtered by the mechanics of how someone enjoys fucking", and that only enters in when a mutual acceptance of shallow and deep factors known thus far has facilitated mutual discussion of "what is in the pants".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You know, I have some sympathy for those who struggle with how to respond appropriately when one encounters some whose superficial appearance —style of clothing and hair cut and possibly makeup or jewelry is at odds with perceived differing characteristics. On one hand, one may be a bit surprised or amused to see a very large, muscular man gently stroking a kitten or blowing soap bubbles —or wearing a pink tutu. A small, slight woman might be confusing to some if they see her wield an axe or throw a large drunk out of a bar or shoot hoops with big, tall guys. In fact, that might elicit some hostile reactions, even unconsciously. Or very vocally.

I’ve encountered people whose sex and/or gender was not immediately apparent—or even certain after a few short conversations. But so what? Their sex, their gender or how they chose to express it was absolutely not pertinent nor was it any of my business. If I am honest, I will admit that privately, on a couple of occasions, I speculated —because the lack of uncertainty made ME uncomfortable. For most of us, we are simply more comfortable with certainty than not. Fortunately, growing up doesn’t stop at sge 18 or 21 or 25 or 45–not if you are doing it right. It took me longer than I’d like to admit to recognize that my lack of absolute certainty about some one else’s body/business was my problem and not theirs and it was my job to accept them as they were, even if they did not fit into some small set of well defined boxes I had in my head. Their job wasn’t to make me feel comfortable but to be themselves. And, after all, I’ve never much liked it when someone tried to put me in a box either.

It depends on the situation. In 98% of the situations where I interact with someone, I give exactly zero fucks how they present (assuming it's appropriate for the venue). My spouse routinely paints his fingernails with prismatic and glittery polish. He has a collection of rainbow titanium things, including eating utensils, chop sticks, scissors, hair comb, knives, flashlights, and firearms. He brings home flowers to brighten up the place - they're not even for me! Back in college I dated a guy who regularly wore long skirts - not kilts, actual skirts. I went to high school with men who wore make-up and women who wore steel-toed boots.

I do not care how people present in the vast majority of situations.

Where I do end up with some hesitation is when a penis ends up in the girls showers in middle school. Or when a penis gets hosed with female prisoners. My care is for situations where sex actually does matter.

Penis in the shower.

You make it sound like boys in middle or high school can just up and say they are trans, the school will open up the girls locker room to them gleefully, and then erects boys will be taking showers with the girls, none the wiser.

What exactly do you think is preventing this from happening?

You mean other than reasonable judgment? This isn't some sort hack that must be obliged.

The regulations and policies being put in place say that anyone who is transgender or nonbinary can use whatever restrooms and showers match their gender identity, and that gender identity is completely self-declared and has no requirement for a clinical diagnosis, treatment, or even any expectation of presentation.

This isn't in a vacuum.

That's kind of the whole issue with Louden County. A male-bodied person raped a female-bodied person in the girl's restroom. The male-bodied person wore skirts pretty regularly, and the school has a policy of inclusion which supports students using the bathroom that fits whatever they say their gender is.

I'm glad you bring that case up. Because it is very important to remember that transgender policies put forth (August 11, 2021) AFTER sexual assaults (May 28th 2021), are always the cause of those assaults that occur. The girl was sexually assaulted by someone she knew and had had sexual relations twice before.. and that person had no business being in that bathroom, despite wearing a skirt. So transgender policies had absolutely nothing to do with the crime that boy committed.

I assume you just didn't understand the case better and will stop using a girl's rape for political points in the future.

 

[Emily Lake]

To be precise, I am a transwoman, and that kind of implies the whole thing of being born with x/y chromosomes.

In the case of transgender women that started transition in adolescence, you probably would not know that they were ever anything besides women. If they have the option, then most transwomen prefer to go "stealth" as soon as possible, and from there, they are very selective about which people in their lives they tell about their natal sex.

I am an exception! .

You ARE an exception! Actually, so is Krypton Iodine Sulfur, though I haven't seen her post anything recently. Both of you are comfortable being transwomen and neither of you insists that you're actually for realsies female. And both of you take a fairly pragmatic and reasonable approach to the topic, and consider females to be valid and meaningful.

There's a twitter poster that I like to read (although I lurk and almost never post anything on twitter, it's a scary place), who goes by SophieXY. I like her approach, and one of the positions she takes is that she doesn't identify "as a" woman, she identifies "with" women. And it really shows in how she views a lot of the conflicts and the discussions. I think she's pretty cool, and almost always a bit of happiness. I like Buck Angel's posts for the same reason. They're comfortable with who they are, and their comfort isn't dependent on the perceptions of other people.

 

[Emily Lake]

Well, there are also straight-up-stupid people. My wife and i were stationed in The South right after we married, and often met confused people. They would take her order, then ring up her total, because it never occurred to them that i could be with her.
And one time on base i honked at my wife as i drove by on errands for Group 2. The chief i was chauffeuring assumed i was honking at the very pregnant white woman beside her, and asked about the coming kid.
Some people are very confused, to this day, by my choice to marry a black woman.

I gotta say, their confusion is really nothing i am in a hurry to bother with. The world has moved on and we need not go out of OUR way to cater to stick-in-the-muds who want to live somewhere in yesterday.

I mean, i use 'wife' to mean 'wife' without warning anyone about miscegenation. I say 'sons' without amplifying terms like 'half-castes.'

Reminds me of going to the mall with my dad when I was a kid. We got a whole lot of looks from people trying to figure out where that black man stole that little white girl from. It was annoying as all hell. Let alone the questions about why my sister didn't 'look like' me.

They still look when I go out with my dad and my mom's not there. Only now there's an added assumption that there's sex involved becaues we couldn't possibly just be family.

 

[Emily Lake]

Isn't it a little bit simpler if I just tell you I'm a trans-woman? The semantics stuff can get kind of stupid.

If I tell you that I am transgender, then you know what I was born looking like.

Again, I don't have to give you that information. A lot of transgender people get tired of these kinds of conversations, and they just go full stealth. I can't say that I can blame them, either. Transphobes can be pretty unhinged. However, I prefer to not avoid things.

Of course it's easier. And for people who pass even moderately well (they don't even have to pass perfectly, just clearly be trying), there's no need in the vast majority of situations for anyone to be bothered. If someone even half-passably looks like they're a woman, I'm not going to bat an eyelash in the shower unless they whip out their junk.

 

[Emily Lake]

A lot of people, now, are transitioned as children, so it's getting harder, these days, to tell. I started a little bit later in life, so in my case, it does kind of stand out. If I had started in adolescence, it would have been a little bit different.

Actually, I take that back. I look reasonably attractive, by feminine standards, and if I had enough foundation make-up on, then I could go stealth if I really wanted to. I just don't have the inclination.

In the highly unlikely event that you ended up in prison, which ward would you expect to be placed in? Would you be deeply offended if you were placed in a men's prison?

Do you routinely strip down to nothing in the presence of nekkid girls and women?

Aside from those sorts of situations, you should have no obligation or expectation to pass, or even to bother trying. But if you expect to be naked while in the presence of naked female humans... it would be polite to at least put in some effort

 

[Emily Lake]

Unless a transgender person is voluntarily out, which means they can probably stand up to weirdos that do that creepy "giving a shit" thing, I think you are more likely to insult some grandmother with menopausal hirsutism than call out a trans-woman.

More of us are out, these days, to be fair.

Hey now! Back off my menopause beard. I'm working on a goatee that would be quite respectable were I a thirteen year old boy.

 

[Emily Lake]

Which is my whole point, here. There are appropriate contexts for "scientific/academic" classification. These contexts relate specifically to the understanding of root causative conditions for similar outcomes so they may be inflicted or prevented or reversed as the case may be.

They do not relate to social interactions. The rules there acknowledge concepts of privacy. That acknowledgement of privacy involves that we have public lives and private lives and public parts and private parts as well.

Do we not, in this thread (or perhaps one of the other bullshit threads) have an example posted of a disastrous false identification?

You miss the point, and you seem to not get why it ends up back at language. Let me try to lay it out in clear terms.

A: I'm a woman and it's a violation of my civil rights to prohibit me from being housed with other women in prison.
B: You look like a man, you have a beard, and you have a penis.
A: That doesn't matter. I'm a transwoman.
B: Yes, and that's great, I'm happy for you, you be you and fly your flag proudly! But you're a transwoman, which means you're male. And prisons house males and females separately for some very good reasons.
A: No, Tanswomen ARE women! End of discussion, no debate!
B: You're perfectly free to be socially a woman, and to dress and behave as it pleases you, and to expect decent treatment and respect from everyone else without mistreatment due to your presentation or your identity... but prisons are segregated on the basis of sex, not on the basis of gender identity. It's not fair to female prisoners to place a male with them against their will.
A: None of that matters, only gender matters! And I'm a woman! They're not called "female prisons" they're called "women's prisons", duh, the gender is right there in the name!
B: Uh, no, it's just that historically and up until very recently, 'woman' was the word used for adult females of the human species, just like 'mare' is the word for an adult female of the equine species. When they were labeled as 'women's prisons' it was completely understood that it meant female humans.
A: Well, you're just using outdated meanings. Woman now refers to gender not to sex, and sex doesn't matter. Therefore I demand to be in the women's prison, it's where I belong because I'm a woman!
B: How exactly are you a woman? What makes you a woman in a way that should override sex segregation of prisons?
A: Because I say so!
B: We seriously need to get a definition that makes sense for this discussion to even happen...

 

[Emily Lake]

Another aspect is this conflation between "knowing" and "assuming".

People cannot know short of looking, what is in someone's pants, and that whatever-it-is is merely a bad proxy for whatever it is you really want to know unless that thing is exactly "do they have a penis?" Which is something nobody is entitled to know and which it is exceedingly rude to assume. People can assume and probably be right, but it's still exceedingly rude.

And yet we're accurate over 99% of the time! Amazing. Even our AI technology is highly accurate at identifying sex from facial features alone. Enough so that a fair number of transgender identified males are angry that computers misgender them.

 

[Emily Lake]

Agreed. Why is it so important to know what's in people's pants. Does the genitalia of the clerk at Safeway really matter to checking out your groceries? Do you think they're going to push your items passed the scanner with their penis? It must be hell to worry about this so much.

I really get tired of this motte and bailey.

Nobody with an ounce of humanity gives a crap about the sex of the person at Safeway. Sex is irrelevant at Safeway.

How about, instead of the absurdism of the clerk at Safeway, you address a situation where sex actually does matter... like in a rape shelter, or in prison, or in a middle-school gym shower? How about you address situations like the WiSpa incident?