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China to send crewed missions to Moon AND Mars!

Perhaps the South Pole station could serve as a good example of what a moon or mars base would be like?
I was thinking the same thing. We have had remote and isolated outposts for years; We already know what problems arise, and the continued existence of those outposts show that we have found solutions to those problems.

Mars is just more of the same.

On Mars there will be the same problems we have here.
And the same solutions that we have here, will work there.
There will be other problems, though, that don’t crop up in the South Pole. My understanding is that long stays in outer space reduce bone density and muscle mass, and negatively affect the eyes. There is also the problem of shielding against excessive radiation exposure. For really long-term missions as would be the case for Mars trips and Mars bases, psychological issues, even severe ones, will undoubtedly arise. I have to think the Chinese know about all this and are working on solutions.
 
My understanding is that long stays in outer space reduce bone density and muscle mass, and negatively affect the eyes.
Sure; This is one reason why a Mars base is a good idea - Mars has fairly decent surface gravity, so astronauts (or in this case, taikonauts) can eschew their time consuming microgravity exercise regime while at the base.

Those microgravity exercise regimes have been developed in low Earth orbit, in Mir and ISS, and before that, Skylab. They are now pretty effective. And spacecraft design can play a huge role in mitigating these issues.
There is also the problem of shielding against excessive radiation exposure.
There are plenty of technical solutions to this problem too. Shielding can be provided by fuel or other consumable supplies, such as water (water is an excellent radiation shield). The taikonauts can be warned of increased solar activity well in advance, and can take shelter - as mission control is closer to the Sun than the Mars mission, there should always be an early warning of significant solar radiation spikes.
For really long-term missions as would be the case for Mars trips and Mars bases, psychological issues, even severe ones, will undoubtedly arise.
This is the exact same set of problems we have already solved at remote terrestrial outposts, and on long voyages in the pre-electronic era.

James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
 
James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
And soon,
The human race was dominated by EuroChristian Colonialism. Pillaging, genocide, slavery, oppression.

How about humans mind their own business until they are able to do so effectively and humanely?
Figure out a way to take care of poor kids before they invest so much in taking care of grown ass adults who choose to go to Mars?

That's what I mean by "mind their own business". Take proper care of the humans in the Family of Humanity, and the environment we need, before sending people to the moon or Mars? How hard is that?

When Elon Musk is smart and rich enough to solve human problems like child welfare, then he can do whatever he wants with what's left of his fortune.
We'll see.
Tom
 
James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
And soon,
The human race was dominated by EuroChristian Colonialism. Pillaging, genocide, slavery, oppression.

How about humans mind their own business until they are able to do so effectively and humanely?
Figure out a way to take care of poor kids before they invest so much in taking care of grown ass adults who choose to go to Mars?

That's what I mean by "mind their own business". Take proper care of the humans in the Family of Humanity, and the environment we need, before sending people to the moon or Mars? How hard is that?

When Elon Musk is smart and rich enough to solve human problems like child welfare, then he can do whatever he wants with what's left of his fortune.
We'll see.
Tom
Are you concerned that we might oppress and/or enslave the Martians?
 
James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
And soon,
The human race was dominated by EuroChristian Colonialism. Pillaging, genocide, slavery, oppression.

How about humans mind their own business until they are able to do so effectively and humanely?
Figure out a way to take care of poor kids before they invest so much in taking care of grown ass adults who choose to go to Mars?

That's what I mean by "mind their own business". Take proper care of the humans in the Family of Humanity, and the environment we need, before sending people to the moon or Mars? How hard is that?

When Elon Musk is smart and rich enough to solve human problems like child welfare, then he can do whatever he wants with what's left of his fortune.
We'll see.
Tom
Are you concerned that we might oppress and/or enslave the Martians?
I prefer to believe there is a super-advanced race of highly intelligent Martians living underground, having moved there when their climate went to shit and the surface became uninhabitable. When we arrive on their planet, I like to think they will surface, and have a nice chat with us. And this time they will have the superior technology. “We put up with your stupid wheeled buggies, but we are not going to put up with you.”
 
Are you concerned that we might oppress and/or enslave the Martians?
No.

But I am sure that the rich and powerful will continue oppression and enslavement of the humans already here on Earth.

With their combination of photo-ops and colonialism and tax benefits for the rich (AKA corporate welfare) will continue to oppress and enslave the humans right here and loot the environment we depend upon.

Lemme know when Trump or Musk or Putin or any of the other major players in US politics manage to develop a plan that improves the situation for the human situation as a whole.
Tom
 
Are you concerned that we might oppress and/or enslave the Martians?
No.

But I am sure that the rich and powerful will continue oppression and enslavement of the humans already here on Earth.

With their combination of photo-ops and colonialism and tax benefits for the rich (AKA corporate welfare) will continue to oppress and enslave the humans right here and loot the environment we depend upon.

Lemme know when Trump or Musk or Putin or any of the other major players in US politics manage to develop a plan that improves the situation for the human situation as a whole.
Tom
I get what you’re saying, and even agree with it to a great extent, but at the same time scientific exploration of the solar system, including humans if it can be done as inexpensively and safely as possible, and looking after the well-being of those on earth, are not mutually exclusive objectives. In fact they could be said to support each other.
 
Are you concerned that we might oppress and/or enslave the Martians?
No.

But I am sure that the rich and powerful will continue oppression and enslavement of the humans already here on Earth.
I am sure you're right.

Meanwhile let's also go to Mars, and do some other cool stuff.
With their combination of photo-ops and colonialism and tax benefits for the rich (AKA corporate welfare) will continue to oppress and enslave the humans right here and loot the environment we depend upon.
Yup. It's inevitable, whether we go to Mars or not.
Lemme know when Trump or Musk or Putin or any of the other major players in US politics manage to develop a plan that improves the situation for the human situation as a whole.
Tom
Don't hold your breath.

Let's go to Mars anyway.

We don't have to solve every single problem on Earth before we go. Or even when we get back.
 
I guess I'm okay with this -- let Xi spend billions on space, as opposed to his air force and army. But, I have a selfish motive in wishing that Italy would get into this race. If I lease a time share on Mars, I want to have a Fazoli's in the area, not just Panda Express.
 
I guess I'm okay with this -- let Xi spend billions on space, as opposed to his air force and army. But, I have a selfish motive in wishing that Italy would get into this race. If I lease a time share on Mars, I want to have a Fazoli's in the area, not just Panda Express.

Not to mention genuine Italian Espresso.
 

James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
Not giving the astronauts the internet might help on the long trip.
 
James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
And soon,
The human race was dominated by EuroChristian Colonialism. Pillaging, genocide, slavery, oppression.
The human race (or portions theferof) has been dominated by Roman, Viking, Aztecs, Chinese, Moslem etc. colonialism, pillaging, slavery, oppression. Its not a just a EuroChristian theme, despite your most fervent wishes.
 

James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
Not giving the astronauts the internet might help on the long trip.
Ping times are gonna get really long after a few billion miles anyhow. They’ll probably give it up on their own.
 
James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.
And soon,
The human race was dominated by EuroChristian Colonialism. Pillaging, genocide, slavery, oppression.
The human race (or portions theferof) has been dominated by Roman, Viking, Aztecs, Chinese, Moslem etc. colonialism, pillaging, slavery, oppression. Its not a just a EuroChristian theme, despite your most fervent wishes.
Sure, but James Cook wasn't Roman, Viking*, Aztec, Chinese, or Moslem, at least not to my knowledge.

Whitby was (and despite massive growth in the C19th, still is) a very small town, so I am sure some of the locals would have noticed and recorded the presence of an Aztec in their midst. I imagine that the Walkers were the gossip of the town just by having a Geordie as an apprentice; we Yorkshiremen are an insular bunch.






* Well, he was almost certainly descended from Vikings, as are most people in Marton-in-Cleveland from where he hailed. But the Vikings hadn't been around for 800 years when Cook was born.
 
James Cook undertook three great voyages, each of three to four years duration, in a tiny ship in a hostile environment with no communication whatsoever with home, and his crew didn't even have so much as a Gameboy to keep them entertained.

Legend has it that Cook passed some of the boring hours playing the game now called Connect-4. Do we have a volunteer to peruse Cook's handwritten journals and seek evidence for this claim?
 
I decided to research this issue more carefully.

OP's link with its title: China Releases its First Roadmap for Space Science and Exploration Through 2050. - Universe Today

China plans to send taikonauts, its astronauts, to the Moon by 2030, and to Mars by 2033, and to eventually build long-term bases on both places.

Landing taikonauts on the Moon? That seems feasible, because return of astronauts from the Moon's surface was successfully demonstrated a half century ago. Landing taikonauts on Mars? That does not have anything comparable for Mars's surface. To date, no spacecraft has attempted to depart that planet's surface for an orbit around that planet. I've seen a plausible compromise: go into orbit around Mars.

A minimum-energy trajectory has 9 months to Mars, a year at Mars, then 9 months back from Mars, giving a total of 2 1/2 years.

China Maps Out Plans to Put Astronauts on the Moon and on Mars - The New York Times
About going to Mars and then returning,
“Technically, it is feasible in theory, but it has huge challenges in engineering because the scale is very large, we have estimated at least 900 days of travel” based on current technologies, Mr. Zhou said.
That's about right for a minimum-energy trajectory.
With nuclear propulsion, the trip could be trimmed to 500 days, he said, without predicting whether China would adopt that approach.
Nuclear-reactor rocket engines? There are two main types: thermal and electric.

Thermal ones have been researched for years:  NERVA and NASA, DARPA Will Test Nuclear Engine for Future Mars Missions - NASA -- but no nuclear-thermal rocket engine has ever been tested in flight. Such engines have a further problem: they require liquid hydrogen as a propellant, to get high exhaust velocities. Anything else has a big problem: nuclear reactors with them will be *worse* than chemical engines. That is because nuclear reactors' heat is made in their fuel rods, heat which then will be conducted to the propellant. So the temperature cannot be great enough to soften or melt the reactor's internal structure. That limit is currently around 950 C, though very refractory reactor materials may enable higher temperatures. Chemical engines, however, can easily have exhaust much hotter than their engine structures, something done routinely. Many common ones get up to 3,300 C or thereabouts.

This is from v(exh) ~ sqrt(k*T/m)
for Boltzmann's constant k, temperature T, and molecular weight m.

Hydrogen is at about 2 atomic mass units, water is at 18 amu, CO2 at 44 amu, etc. So to get v(exh) up, one needs to get m down, and the best way to do that is with hydrogen. Everything else does at least 3 times worse. H2 has the problem of being very cryogenic, with a boiling point of about 20 K or -253 C. Oxygen is also cryogenic, though not as much, with a boiling point of 90 K or -183 C.

The other type, nuclear-electric, involves a nuclear reactor powering an electric engine. But successfully-flown electric engines have low thrust, in the 100-millinewton range. There's a technology being researched called  Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR), but it has never been flown, only demonstrated in labs.
Huang Weifen, chief designer of China’s astronaut program, said she was looking at ways to make sure that astronauts could stay healthy for a 500-day trip.

“It is another qualitative leap in flying — a very big challenge for people in terms of the medical issues, the psychological issues and living guarantees,” she said.
 
From space.com: China will explore the moon, Mars, asteroids and Jupiter over the next decade | Space

Chinese officials plan some more missions to the Moon, after successfully returning samples in recent missions: Chang'e 5 and 6. The latter one returned some samples from the far side, lighter in color and lower-density than near-side samples. The next ones will be going to the Moon's south pole, to look for water ice there.
The pair will be precursors to an International Lunar Research Station (ILRS), to be constructed with input from partners in the 2030s. China is actively seeking partners for the venture and has so far attracted more than 10 countries to its cause.
A planned Moon base.
CNSA is gearing up for an audacious bid to collect material from Mars using a two-launch architecture. Named Tianwen 3, the mission will see separate service and reentry module and Mars landing and ascent spacecraft stacks launch in 2028, aiming to deliver samples to Earth around 2031. The main aim is seeking evidence of past or present Mars life, according to scientists.

The mission seems likely to attempt to collect Mars samples and deliver them to Earth before NASA's own Mars Sample Return efforts. That project is currently in doubt, with NASA seeking new proposals to cut costs and accelerate the timeline.
So there will be two spacecraft doing to Mars, an orbiter and a lander. The lander will consist of a descent stage and an ascent stage, much like the Apollo Lunar Module. The ascent stage will carry samples to the orbiter, and the orbiter will then return to the Earth.

That's unlike what the Soviet Luna missions of the early 1970's did: direct return of the samples.

 Sample-return mission
 
If they do find current life on Mars, I guess we are just going to have to hope it can’t interact negatively with us.
 
Li Guoping, CNSA's chief engineer, stated that next year China is on target to launch the Tianwen 2 mission to sample the near-Earth asteroid Kamo'oalewa. The spacecraft will deliver samples to Earth and then head off on an extended journey to study a main-belt comet.

...
Around 2030, China will launch its first mission beyond the asteroid belt. Tianwen 4 will send a spacecraft to Jupiter, Li said. The mission will survey the Jupiter system before orbiting the Galilean moon Callisto. It could also include a spacecraft that will separately make a flyby of Uranus, according to earlier reports. Li also noted that a planetary defense mission is planned for the coming years.

Another mission expected to launch in the coming years is an asteroid-deflection test, attempting to demonstrate a kinetic impactor similar to NASA's DART mission.
 Tianwen-1 - Mars orbiter, lander, rover - 23 July 2020
 Tianwen-2 - asteroid sample return - May 2025
 Tianwen-3 - Mars sample return - 2028 (?)
 Tianwen-4 - Jupiter, Callisto orbiter, Uranus flyby (?) - September 2029 (?)
 
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