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Merged Chinese balloon raises hackles in US

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Copernicus

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The Chinese spy balloon scandal is making a lot of people angry. The Biden administration doesn't want to shoot it down, for fear of the damage it could cause when the large array of spy equipment underneath it strikes the ground. Republicans see that as a sign of weakness and are making a lot of noise over it. Blinken has now been forced to cancel his planned diplomatic trip to China. The Chinese response is deliberately vague and insulting, so it does seem like a deliberate provocation timed to torpedo Blinken's trip. What will happen next?

Chinese balloon soars across US; Blinken scraps Beijing trip

 
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The problem though is one of scale. Stratospheric balloons are colossal. NASA’s standard balloons are 40 million cubic feet, a volume equivalent to more than 195 GoodyearGT -1.4% blimps: you could fit en entire football stadium inside one. The balloon envelope is made of plastic material no thicker than sandwich wrap, and the pressure difference between the inside and outside is small. Attempting to let the air out by punching a few holes is like expecting to ventilate an entire warehouse with fresh air by opening one small window.

We know that large balloons are hard to shoot down from previous experience. In 1998 a rogue Canadian weather balloon drifted towards Russian airspace. Fighter jets from Canada, Norway and Sweden attempted to bring it down without success. Two Canadian air force CF-18 fighters hit the balloon with more than 1,000 rounds of 20mm cannon fire off the coast of Newfoundland, riddling it with holes. This was not enough to let a significant amount of gas out, and the balloon continued drifting.

A volley of 2.75” rockets was equally ineffective, as the high-explosive rockets simply flew though the balloon without detonating.
 
The official Chinese position is that it is merely a weather balloon that blew off course.

The balloon itself might be hard to bring down, but the huge instrument array could be destroyed. The US would probably like to get its hands on that in order to see what the Chinese were using it to observe.
 
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The Chinese have spy satellites. Why would anyone give two shits about them also flying spy balloons over US Territory?

The sole worthwhile objection I can think of is if it interferes with regular air traffic. Which at FL600, it won't.

The appropriate diplomatic response would be to chuckle. Maybe to joke that next time it would be a nice courtesy if they were to file a flight plan.

If the US military has secret stuff that is visible from overhead, then the satellites have already seen it. Both satellites and balloons can be defeated by a cheap canvas awning or tent. Or by camouflage netting. Or by staging stuff that gives an incorrect or misleading impression.

There's literally and figuratively nothing to see here.
 
Republicans see that as a sign of weakness and are making a lot of noise over it.
Republicans see it as a sign of weakness worth making noise over whenever the president farts. Or there is a press conference somewhere. Or a leaf falls into the Okefenokee.

The US cannot make a non-hypocritical case against spy satellites, balloons, and planes, for incredibly obvious and globally well known reasons.
 
Republicans see that as a sign of weakness and are making a lot of noise over it.
Republicans see it as a sign of weakness worth making noise over whenever the president farts. Or there is a press conference somewhere. Or a leaf falls into the Okefenokee.

Republicans see anything other than chest-puffing and sabre-rattling as "weakness."

IMO, the public response of "oh, you've got a balloon...that's nice. We'll keep an eye on it for you" is stronger.
 
The Chinese have spy satellites. Why would anyone give two shits about them also flying spy balloons over US Territory?

The sole worthwhile objection I can think of is if it interferes with regular air traffic. Which at FL600, it won't.

The appropriate diplomatic response would be to chuckle. Maybe to joke that next time it would be a nice courtesy if they were to file a flight plan.

If the US military has secret stuff that is visible from overhead, then the satellites have already seen it. Both satellites and balloons can be defeated by a cheap canvas awning or tent. Or by camouflage netting. Or by staging stuff that gives an incorrect or misleading impression.

There's literally and figuratively nothing to see here.

The problem is that they don't know what kind of intelligence it is gathering. I'm not sure how their satellites compare to US ones in terms of visible detection, but there is speculation that a balloon in a lower orbit could gather other kinds of sigint not easily gathered from satellites, e.g. communications, not just photographs. Until, and unless, they get a close look at the equipment, they won't really know what it was doing. It is likely that the Chinese will want to steer it back into China or maybe some place like Latin American countries that are more cooperative in working with them to recover it. If it ditches the package in the ocean, it could be unretrievable.
 
The Chinese have spy satellites. Why would anyone give two shits about them also flying spy balloons over US Territory?

The sole worthwhile objection I can think of is if it interferes with regular air traffic. Which at FL600, it won't.

The appropriate diplomatic response would be to chuckle. Maybe to joke that next time it would be a nice courtesy if they were to file a flight plan.

If the US military has secret stuff that is visible from overhead, then the satellites have already seen it. Both satellites and balloons can be defeated by a cheap canvas awning or tent. Or by camouflage netting. Or by staging stuff that gives an incorrect or misleading impression.

There's literally and figuratively nothing to see here.
My thought, also. It's lower altitude but what do they gain? And they risk it coming down and the equipment being recovered--it's more likely just a weather balloon whose destruct didn't work. (The normal procedure is either to make your balloon inherently self-destruct by providing lift sufficient to take it to the point it's overinflated and burst; or to provide a destruct that separates the instrument package and lets it fall on a parachute. If you want your balloon to stay up a while you have to use the latter technique.)

I do agree bringing it down would be difficult--it's not going to trigger the boom in anything we've got, all you'll get are little holes. It shouldn't be hard to build a balloon-killer, though--take any aircraft that can get up there (and FL600 isn't insane) and put a pod on it that dangles a rope of some kind, anything that's heavy enough that it doesn't just stream. Fly over, goodbye balloon.
 
The Chinese have spy satellites. Why would anyone give two shits about them also flying spy balloons over US Territory?

The sole worthwhile objection I can think of is if it interferes with regular air traffic. Which at FL600, it won't.

The appropriate diplomatic response would be to chuckle. Maybe to joke that next time it would be a nice courtesy if they were to file a flight plan.

If the US military has secret stuff that is visible from overhead, then the satellites have already seen it. Both satellites and balloons can be defeated by a cheap canvas awning or tent. Or by camouflage netting. Or by staging stuff that gives an incorrect or misleading impression.

There's literally and figuratively nothing to see here.

The problem is that they don't know what kind of intelligence it is gathering. I'm not sure how their satellites compare to US ones in terms of visible detection, but there is speculation that a balloon in a lower orbit could gather other kinds of sigint not easily gathered from satellites, e.g. communications, not just photographs. Until, and unless, they get a close look at the equipment, they won't really know what it was doing. It is likely that the Chinese will want to steer it back into China or maybe some place like Latin American countries that are more cooperative in working with them to recover it. If it ditches the package in the ocean, it could be unretrievable.
There's no worthwhile sigint a balloon can collect that couldn't be collected by spies on the ground.

If you think it's impossible (or even difficult) for Chinese spies to enter the United States and collect such sigint, then I have some seafront land in the ACT to sell you.

And if you think a balloon helps with the only serious sigint issue in modern espionage - decrypting the messages - then you might also be interested in this nice bridge we have in Sydney Harbour, which I am prepared to let you have at a significant discount.

Seriously, this balloon couldn't possibly do anything that isn't easier to do, and already being done, by other means - except rile up the idiots who think aerospace sovereignty is somehow important.
 
There's no worthwhile sigint a balloon can collect that couldn't be collected by spies on the ground.

If you think it's impossible (or even difficult) for Chinese spies to enter the United States and collect such sigint, then I have some seafront land in the ACT to sell you.

And if you think a balloon helps with the only serious sigint issue in modern espionage - decrypting the messages - then you might also be interested in this nice bridge we have in Sydney Harbour, which I am prepared to let you have at a significant discount.

Seriously, this balloon couldn't possibly do anything that isn't easier to do, and already being done, by other means - except rile up the idiots who think aerospace sovereignty is somehow important.

Right, well, here's a contrary opinion from Peter Layton, a fellow at the Griffith Asia Institute in Australia and former Royal Australian Air Force officer, and other experts:

“Balloon payloads can now weigh less and so the balloons can be smaller, cheaper and easier to launch” than satellites, Layton said.

Blake Herzinger, an expert in Indo-Pacific defense policy at the American Enterprise Institute, said despite their slow speeds, balloons aren’t always easy to spot.

“They’re very low signature and low-to-zero emission, so hard to pick up with traditional situational awareness or surveillance technology,” Herzinger said.

And balloons can do some things that satellites can’t.

“Space-based systems are just as good but they are more predictable in their orbital dynamics,” Layton said.

“An advantage of balloons is that they can be steered using onboard computers to take advantage of winds and they can go up and down to a limited degree. This means they can loiter to a limited extent.

“A satellite can’t loiter and so many are needed to criss-cross an area of interest to maintain surveillance,” he said.

What might it be spying on?​

According to Layton, the suspected Chinese balloon is likely collecting information on US communication systems and radars.

“Some of these systems use extremely high frequencies that are short range, can be absorbed by the atmosphere and being line-of-sight are very directional. It’s possible a balloon might be a better collection platform for such specific technical collection than a satellite,” he said.

Retired US Air Force Col. Cedric Leighton, a CNN military analyst, echoed those thoughts.

“They could be scooping up signals intelligence, in other words, they’re looking at our cell phone traffic, our radio traffic,” Leighton told CNN’s Erin Burnett.

Intelligence data collected by the balloon could be relayed in real time via a satellite link back to China, Layton said.

Analysts also noted that Montana and nearby states are home to US intercontinental ballistic missile silos and strategic bomber bases.

source:

What is a suspected Chinese spy balloon doing above the US?

 
There's no worthwhile sigint a balloon can collect that couldn't be collected by spies on the ground.

If you think it's impossible (or even difficult) for Chinese spies to enter the United States and collect such sigint, then I have some seafront land in the ACT to sell you.

And if you think a balloon helps with the only serious sigint issue in modern espionage - decrypting the messages - then you might also be interested in this nice bridge we have in Sydney Harbour, which I am prepared to let you have at a significant discount.

Seriously, this balloon couldn't possibly do anything that isn't easier to do, and already being done, by other means - except rile up the idiots who think aerospace sovereignty is somehow important.

Right, well, here's a contrary opinion from Peter Layton, a fellow at the Griffith Asia Institute in Australia and former Royal Australian Air Force officer, and other experts:

“Balloon payloads can now weigh less and so the balloons can be smaller, cheaper and easier to launch” than satellites, Layton said.

Blake Herzinger, an expert in Indo-Pacific defense policy at the American Enterprise Institute, said despite their slow speeds, balloons aren’t always easy to spot.

“They’re very low signature and low-to-zero emission, so hard to pick up with traditional situational awareness or surveillance technology,” Herzinger said.

And balloons can do some things that satellites can’t.

“Space-based systems are just as good but they are more predictable in their orbital dynamics,” Layton said.

“An advantage of balloons is that they can be steered using onboard computers to take advantage of winds and they can go up and down to a limited degree. This means they can loiter to a limited extent.

“A satellite can’t loiter and so many are needed to criss-cross an area of interest to maintain surveillance,” he said.

What might it be spying on?​

According to Layton, the suspected Chinese balloon is likely collecting information on US communication systems and radars.

“Some of these systems use extremely high frequencies that are short range, can be absorbed by the atmosphere and being line-of-sight are very directional. It’s possible a balloon might be a better collection platform for such specific technical collection than a satellite,” he said.

Retired US Air Force Col. Cedric Leighton, a CNN military analyst, echoed those thoughts.

“They could be scooping up signals intelligence, in other words, they’re looking at our cell phone traffic, our radio traffic,” Leighton told CNN’s Erin Burnett.

Intelligence data collected by the balloon could be relayed in real time via a satellite link back to China, Layton said.

Analysts also noted that Montana and nearby states are home to US intercontinental ballistic missile silos and strategic bomber bases.

source:

What is a suspected Chinese spy balloon doing above the US?

That's a nice opinion, but it's not contrary to my observation that it's easier to gather such sigint using spies on the ground.

A package hidden at ground level by a spy with a station wagon, can do everything a balloon can do, only cheaper, better, and easier.

There's nothing there that contradicts me; Just a bunch of hot air* to justify paranoia about a total non-event.

ICBM silos and strategic bomber bases aren't a secret. What they do is well known. What they could do in wartime, but haven't yet done to keep their capabilities and techniques secret, cannot be detected by balloons, satellites, or spies outside the perimeter fence - for that, you need humint.







*Useful for balloons
 
A good question is, how with all the high tech defense spending of the U.S. military did the balloon get to the Dakotas without notice? Supossedly the gondola of this balloon is the size of two buses. Or so the news stories claim. Supposedly, in the past, it has been found that balloons this size are hard to shoot down. Why do we not have missiles that aim not at the balloon, but the gondolas with the equipment?
 
Republicans see that as a sign of weakness and are making a lot of noise over it.
Republicans see it as a sign of weakness worth making noise over whenever the president farts. Or there is a press conference somewhere. Or a leaf falls into the Okefenokee.

Republicans see anything other than chest-puffing and sabre-rattling as "weakness."

IMO, the public response of "oh, you've got a balloon...that's nice. We'll keep an eye on it for you" is stronger.
It's strange. On some level I see exactly the same kind of behavior interpreted as "strength" among the republican party as I do here in the neighborhood where I live among poverty groups.

It's almost as if the poorly educated and the just-plain-stupid have a similar idea of what being strong is, "projecting" strength rather than actually BEING strong.

Projected strength will always be challenged and boasted against.

Actual strength, someone just looks at it and says weakly under their breath, "yeah I could take them..." while not really believing it, and backing away rather politely, and looking for softer targets, and if it ever needs to be challenged, it will be challenged seriously by those with the intelligence and respect to acknowledge what it is.

This is one of the reasons a lot of people just can't stand conservative saber rattling hawks. They aren't strength, they are wimpy peacocks whose feathers are weapon shaped.
 
One of the several conservative crackpot theories right now is this is a training exercise to deliver a nuclear payload later. Man, these people throw so much shit against the wall that criticism of Biden for not shooting it down sounds moderate and sane.
 
you might also be interested in this nice bridge we have in Sydney Harbour, which I am prepared to let you have at a significant discount.
Not interested.

What would that neat building nearby cost me?
 
One of the several conservative crackpot theories right now is this is a training exercise to deliver a nuclear payload later. Man, these people throw so much shit against the wall that criticism of Biden for not shooting it down sounds moderate and sane.
I noted on another web board that Balloon delivered nukes were banned by the Khitmer Accords.

The conservative response was 'like the Chinese play by the rules.' These people are crazy. Scared of CRT and a balloon.
 
If this was a spy balloon, wouldn’t they have painted it sky blue?
 
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