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For air targets, proximity and fragmentation is all that is needed.
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Merged Chinese balloon raises hackles in US
- Thread starter Copernicus
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steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Don't know how the current shoulder fired anti tank weapons work today.
In the 80s when reactive armor was developed on tanks weapons were developed to shoot down at the top of the tank. Shoot through the top of the turret or the engine.
A group I worked in made sensors for the first link.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Redeye? One of the first IR seekers, 50s I think.
I think it is much ado about nothing. At that altitude the balloon does not get any more infrmation than a satellit
On camera DeSantos ranted on how grave a security risk it was and how Biden shoud have orded it shot down immediately. Same old political horseshit.
In ma amature spy analyst view the real danger was not Chinese surveillance. It has long been reported the Chines are all over the place. They have set up fake cell towers that intercept traffic.
If our military communications are hackable by a high balloon shame on us.
The real danger is that it got over us without detection. The danger is in what such a balloon might carry. Agricultural diseases and pests. My guess is these balloons are testing our ability to detect.
In WWII Japn sent ballons with incindiaries. A few actually landed.
In the 80s when reactive armor was developed on tanks weapons were developed to shoot down at the top of the tank. Shoot through the top of the turret or the engine.
A group I worked in made sensors for the first link.
SADARM - Wikipedia
CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon - Wikipedia
Redeye? One of the first IR seekers, 50s I think.
I think it is much ado about nothing. At that altitude the balloon does not get any more infrmation than a satellit
On camera DeSantos ranted on how grave a security risk it was and how Biden shoud have orded it shot down immediately. Same old political horseshit.
In ma amature spy analyst view the real danger was not Chinese surveillance. It has long been reported the Chines are all over the place. They have set up fake cell towers that intercept traffic.
If our military communications are hackable by a high balloon shame on us.
The real danger is that it got over us without detection. The danger is in what such a balloon might carry. Agricultural diseases and pests. My guess is these balloons are testing our ability to detect.
In WWII Japn sent ballons with incindiaries. A few actually landed.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Biden should task the joint military staff to put into place programs to detect balloons, drones and destroy them before they can enter U.S. Continental airspace. It is obvious this was not done by Trump, and our military leaders do not seem to have exhibited any real initiative. Nor have. again, various Congressional oversight committees.
There's another way of saying that sentence, and pretty much every country (US included) would view it as such if it happened to their kit.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
For years, the U.S. sent SR-71 Blackbirds over foreign nations who tried shooting them down. And failed. So shooting down spy balloons is not out of line for the U.S..
Jimmy Higgins
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That might be an indicator of the threat the balloon represented. Surveillance isn't a bad thing. Cold War taught us that it isn't bad for adversaries to know some things, it keeps people from making too many unfounded and potentially dangerous presumptions.
Elixir
Made in America
RW morons showing their true colors …
Trumpy politicians posing that way are a perfect representation of conservotard impotence. I can’t imagine anything much more embarrassing.
I’m pretty sure that nobody on this forum - even our Trumpsters - is THAT stupid. But Trumpsuckers writ large are truly high functioning idiots. Some of the people they elected to govern them are racking up big points by posing with assault rifles pointed at the sky, as if their toys could bring down a child’s balloon at 60,000 feet, let alone a Chinese spy balloon. Just for scale, a liberal assessment of the vertical range of an AR- type weapon -the height that a bullet fired straight up a bullet fired straight up could attain - would be about a mile on a good day. ONE mile, not five. And at one mile, that bullet wouldn’t be moving any faster than you could throw it.
Trumpy politicians posing that way are a perfect representation of conservotard impotence. I can’t imagine anything much more embarrassing.
No. That permits off-axis shooting. The earlier versions you had to have your target in front of you (think of all the Hollywood movies where the pilot is maneuvering to get his target in front and get tone (in the old, old days the seeker was simply 4 IR sensors that the missile would try to keep balanced. There was audio feedback as to that balance.))--the X version the pilot can merely get the target in front of his helmet, there can be a substantial deviation between where he's looking and where the plane is going. It doesn't change the fundamental fact that the Sidewinder is a heat seeker and goes after hot things--which is why if you've got one on your ass you spew out flares (hot things to try to distract it) and try to turn so as to deny it a view of your engines (hiding the hottest part of your plane.) All I can think of is there was some operating piece of electronics that was warm enough for the seeker to find it against the cold of the stratosphere.
The man-portable ones do.
There are three basic approaches to defeating tank armor:
1) Big boom. Reliable, but you need more boom than you can put in a shoulder-launched weapon. This is the realm of vehicle-launched weapons. TOW, Hellfire, Maverick off the top of my head. You can also put a laser dot on it and take it out with artillery (Copperhead or Excalibur rounds that can seek on the laser dot) or ordinary laser-guided bombs. (We did a lot of tank plinking in Desert Storm.)
2) Plasma jets. Instead of using brute force against the armor you try to punch a little hole in it. The detonator is on a pole on the front of the round, when it hits the tank the shaped charge warhead goes off producing a jet of copper plasma that actually bores through the armor. It lets you punch through with a far lighter round but there's a countermeasure--you fit the tank with blocks of explosive (reactive armor) that will detonate when hit by the detonator of the incoming round. This disrupts the plasma jet and without it the round is ineffective. Plasma jets are very effective but very short ranged. Note that this is basically the same thing as the linear shaped charges used for beam cutting in demolitions work.
3) Go around the armor instead. Tank tops aren't normally exposed to heavy fire and the armor is much thinner up there (and it has to be, you can't very well build a hatch out of the sort of armor they put on the front.) Missiles such as the Javelin are programmed to fly over the target and fire an explosively formed projectile (same general idea as the plasma jet, but the angle of the explosives is different and the result is a hypersonic slug rather than plasma) down into the tank. An explosively formed projectile isn't as effective as a plasma jet but it has a lot more range. The Russians have attempted to counter this with those cages on top but it doesn't seem to be working, I do not know why.
Copernicus
Industrial Grade Linguist
No. That permits off-axis shooting. The earlier versions you had to have your target in front of you (think of all the Hollywood movies where the pilot is maneuvering to get his target in front and get tone (in the old, old days the seeker was simply 4 IR sensors that the missile would try to keep balanced. There was audio feedback as to that balance.))--the X version the pilot can merely get the target in front of his helmet, there can be a substantial deviation between where he's looking and where the plane is going. It doesn't change the fundamental fact that the Sidewinder is a heat seeker and goes after hot things--which is why if you've got one on your ass you spew out flares (hot things to try to distract it) and try to turn so as to deny it a view of your engines (hiding the hottest part of your plane.) All I can think of is there was some operating piece of electronics that was warm enough for the seeker to find it against the cold of the stratosphere.
As I understand it, the head-up target overlay is used to "mark" the target so that the missile can identify it by means other than heat signature. In the case of a balloon, the heat signature would not be much of a factor, but maybe the missile is now supplemented with radar, lidar, or visual imaging capability. My guess would be lidar. If so, the Chinese might have picked up valuable intelligence on such a targeting device that would be helpful in developing countermeasures. (Note that the authors of the lidar link are all Chinese, indicating an intense interest in the subject on their part.)
Head-up Displays (HUD) in Aviation and Their Quality Considerations
The video also appeared to show it hitting where the compressor would be to both release the payload and cause a great tear in the balloon. The compressor is mechanical and is used to pump regular air in and out of the balloon to regulate its altitude. Being mechanical, it could have been warmer than other components and warmer that the surrounding environment.
jab
Veteran Member
The balloon was noticed while it was still over Canada, I believe.
According to the news release by the DOD it was spotted as it entered US airspace near the Aleutians. I wouldn't have expected anything less. I'd be shocked if US/Canada NORAD hadn't been watching its every move from the start.
F-22 Safely Shoots Down Chinese Spy Balloon Off South Carolina Coast
A U.S. Air Force fighter safely shot down a Chinese high-altitude surveillance balloon, Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III said in a written statement.
www.defense.gov
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Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Just heard a report from MSNBC. The Chinese balloon, floated across the Aluetian straigh into Canadian airspace. It entered American airspace from Canada into Montana. Which is why the USAF did not shoot it down earlier. We can't sent military aircraft into Canadian airspece at will. And as we all know, it was a large bit of kit not wise to shoot down til it was safe to do so. If it had been shot down and killed some goober, the right wingers would be howling to hang Biden on the White House Rose Garden.
All the Faux Noise clowns were times barking why didn't biden shoot it down earlier, as usual, did not know what they were barking about. Why didn't the Canadians shoot that balloon down?
All the Faux Noise clowns were times barking why didn't biden shoot it down earlier, as usual, did not know what they were barking about. Why didn't the Canadians shoot that balloon down?
I don't think it's a case of marking at all, but rather informing the missile of where to look for it's target. Sidewinders are fire-and-forget weapons.No. That permits off-axis shooting. The earlier versions you had to have your target in front of you (think of all the Hollywood movies where the pilot is maneuvering to get his target in front and get tone (in the old, old days the seeker was simply 4 IR sensors that the missile would try to keep balanced. There was audio feedback as to that balance.))--the X version the pilot can merely get the target in front of his helmet, there can be a substantial deviation between where he's looking and where the plane is going. It doesn't change the fundamental fact that the Sidewinder is a heat seeker and goes after hot things--which is why if you've got one on your ass you spew out flares (hot things to try to distract it) and try to turn so as to deny it a view of your engines (hiding the hottest part of your plane.) All I can think of is there was some operating piece of electronics that was warm enough for the seeker to find it against the cold of the stratosphere.
As I understand it, the head-up target overlay is used to "mark" the target so that the missile can identify it by means other than heat signature. In the case of a balloon, the heat signature would not be much of a factor, but maybe the missile is now supplemented with radar, lidar, or visual imaging capability. My guess would be lidar. If so, the Chinese might have picked up valuable intelligence on such a targeting device that would be helpful in developing countermeasures. (Note that the authors of the lidar link are all Chinese, indicating an intense interest in the subject on their part.)
Head-up Displays (HUD) in Aviation and Their Quality Considerations
Copernicus
Industrial Grade Linguist
You look at the technology from the perspective of a human pilot, who "fires and forgets". As a former AI researcher, I look at it more in terms of what the automation software is doing. So to "mark" an object is to make the system notice, categorize, and remember. That would be essentially "informing the missile of where to look for its target". So we aren't really in disagreement on that issue. What is interesting to me is the question of whether the automation is integrating or "fusing" different sensor signals to identify the target. The issue with heat-seeking missiles would be to circumvent defensive measures to confuse it with false positive heat signatures. The countermeasures would need to rely on alternative sensor technology such as LiDAR targeting. I don't know whether sidewinders have had that capability added. The Chinese-authored article I posted a link to suggests that China has not yet mastered the technology. They would certainly be interested in knowing whether the US has and, if so, what the target could respond with as a countermeasure. But I just don't know how the AIM-9X has been upgraded from earlier versions. In any case, the data from the balloon package could potentially have been relayed back to China in real time through satellite links. The whole point of sending that balloon in was probably long planned in advance, and the upcoming diplomatic visit could have provided an opportunistic incentive to launch the balloon at this time. After all, the Chinese weren't expecting Blinken's visit to do them much good anyway.
marc
Veteran Member
Random thoughts
1. The US had worked with spy balloons since the 50's. (the whole Roswell thing was a crashed balloon) Not impressed with 70 year old spying methods, tho the instrument package could be pretty advanced
2. The Chinese probably got much more intelligence information on any trip they made to Mar-a-Lago by just listening to the blowhard bragging, or looking around for stray papers
3. "How come the US didn't detect it until..." Maybe they could detect it from the minute it was launched, but don't announce that their surveillance is that good.
4. The first international incident under W was when a Chinese fighter pilot collided with a surveillance plane. Yes we all watch each other, and I think that is a good thing. People are calmer if they think they know what the other guy is doing. If all attempts at looking in are blocked, people start to wonder what they are hiding? What are they up to? They start getting nervous and imagining threats, potentially doing something stupid.
1. The US had worked with spy balloons since the 50's. (the whole Roswell thing was a crashed balloon) Not impressed with 70 year old spying methods, tho the instrument package could be pretty advanced
2. The Chinese probably got much more intelligence information on any trip they made to Mar-a-Lago by just listening to the blowhard bragging, or looking around for stray papers
3. "How come the US didn't detect it until..." Maybe they could detect it from the minute it was launched, but don't announce that their surveillance is that good.
4. The first international incident under W was when a Chinese fighter pilot collided with a surveillance plane. Yes we all watch each other, and I think that is a good thing. People are calmer if they think they know what the other guy is doing. If all attempts at looking in are blocked, people start to wonder what they are hiding? What are they up to? They start getting nervous and imagining threats, potentially doing something stupid.
Jimmy Higgins
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Remember when the W Admin bragged about killing someone via an armed Predator drone.... when we didn't want anyone to know we could arm a Predator drone.
I think it is important for Americans to realize the Government doesn't tell us everything, like how solid our surveillance is. The fact we found a nearly unpowered floating ball of gas at 60+ thousand feet in the air is a good sign. And when they detected it wouldn't necessarily be something the US government wants the general international population to know. The US did make note of it, I think as a nod to China as a "We see you over there." I don't think the balloon needed to be popped, but the general US populace was losing their shit over a fucking balloon.
Very much so. That is why we did have an agreement with Russia specifically over this... until Trump ended it for Putin.
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