Choices

[Shafees]

"If Barry Schwartz is right to say that choice has made us not freer but more paralyzed, not happier but more dissatisfied, is there a case today for taking some of it away from us?"

 

[Shafees]

Does Barry refer here to choices in a commodity culture? Since the choices that we make that really define who we are have not changed or increased with the years.

 

[zorq]

I don't think I read his book but I saw his ted talk a year ago and I recall one of the examples he gave. He talks about going out to buy a pair of jeans and leaving the mall after three hours of shopping for jeans with the best fitting and most flattering jeans he has ever worn in his life but feeling frustrated and disappointed with the experience. He compares this with buying jeans when he was a child because he would get poorly fitting jeans but he could pick them out in 10 minutes and move on with his life even though the jeans didn't fit well.

To answer the OP. Yes there can be a case to be made where removing choices is a valuable activity but not for this reason that Barry proposes.

It is okay to outlaw products and activities that are dangerous to individuals and society. It is not okay to enforce monopolies "to reduce the stress inducing choices of the world today."

If anyone is feeling stressed by the number of choices a modern economy provides they can make one final adult choice to retreat to a monastery/commune/cave in the mountains/forest/desert where they don't have to think about all of those choices anymore. We all can choose not to make as many choices. That is a possibility and it's okay.

 

[DBT]

When a goal, and the pathway to that goal, is clear in one's mind there is no need to make a choice in relation to that goal. There are no options that require considering (the pathway being fully understood). It is with incomplete information that complications arise when a course of action needs to be analyzed decisions based on the analysis of incomplete information need to be made. The need too contemplate and consider are a sign of confusion (to whatever degree) due to insufficient information. An Omniscient Being, should One exist has no need to contemplate, consider or decide. The so called 'decision' is an inherit part of complete knowledge as an action knowingly performed.

 

[bilby]

When a goal, and the pathway to that goal, is clear in one's mind there is no need to make a choice in relation to that goal. There are no options that require considering (the pathway being fully understood). It is with incomplete information that complications arise when a course of action needs to be analyzed decisions based on the analysis of incomplete information need to be made. The need too contemplate and consider are a sign of confusion (to whatever degree) due to insufficient information. An Omniscient Being, should One exist has no need to contemplate, consider or decide. The so called 'decision' is an inherit part of complete knowledge as an action knowingly performed.

Insufficient information makes decision making easier. The less information you have, the simpler it is to choose.

If you must pick between two cars, and you know nothing about them, then you can just toss a coin.

If you know a little about them, the decision gets harder - One is red and the other is blue. Which to choose - I like blue, but the red one has more chance of being a Ferrari.

Knowing a bit more makes it harder still - They are both Fords (boo). The blue one costs $2,000 more than the red one, but the red one gets better gas mileage. The blue one is ten years old, the red one is only two years old. The blue one was never involved in a crash. The red one was owned by an elderly lady who only ever drove it to the shops. The blue one has a sunroof. The red one has built in GPS. The blue one has cruise control...

The more information you have, the more likely it is that you will pick the option that leads to a better outcome - but at the same time, the harder the decision becomes.

With infinite information, you require an infinite time to decide; but you will always make the best decision.

 

[DBT]

When a goal, and the pathway to that goal, is clear in one's mind there is no need to make a choice in relation to that goal. There are no options that require considering (the pathway being fully understood). It is with incomplete information that complications arise when a course of action needs to be analyzed decisions based on the analysis of incomplete information need to be made. The need too contemplate and consider are a sign of confusion (to whatever degree) due to insufficient information. An Omniscient Being, should One exist has no need to contemplate, consider or decide. The so called 'decision' is an inherit part of complete knowledge as an action knowingly performed.

Insufficient information makes decision making easier. The less information you have, the simpler it is to choose.

If you must pick between two cars, and you know nothing about them, then you can just toss a coin.

If you know a little about them, the decision gets harder - One is red and the other is blue. Which to choose - I like blue, but the red one has more chance of being a Ferrari.

Knowing a bit more makes it harder still - They are both Fords (boo). The blue one costs $2,000 more than the red one, but the red one gets better gas mileage. The blue one is ten years old, the red one is only two years old. The blue one was never involved in a crash. The red one was owned by an elderly lady who only ever drove it to the shops. The blue one has a sunroof. The red one has built in GPS. The blue one has cruise control...

The more information you have, the more likely it is that you will pick the option that leads to a better outcome - but at the same time, the harder the decision becomes.

With infinite information, you require an infinite time to decide; but you will always make the best decision.

Depends on the mental disposition of the decision maker, a gambler may just flip a coin.

I should have went into more detail.

The gambler is clear in his goals and expectations, so flipping a coin in order to take a course of action that will determine the state of the rest of his life poses no problems for him.

Clarity comes in many forms.

 

[Shafees]

I don't think I read his book but I saw his ted talk a year ago and I recall one of the examples he gave. He talks about going out to buy a pair of jeans and leaving the mall after three hours of shopping for jeans with the best fitting and most flattering jeans he has ever worn in his life but feeling frustrated and disappointed with the experience. He compares this with buying jeans when he was a child because he would get poorly fitting jeans but he could pick them out in 10 minutes and move on with his life even though the jeans didn't fit well.
.

So what you are saying is that he is saying that today we get caught up in the pursuit of the "perfect" jeans because we have that choice.

But before, if we had the means, then we would have just gone to a tailor to get our jeans fitted. And going to that tailor you would feel satisfied with his workmanship.

Now we have factory made, high quality, perfect jean that leave you dissatisfied precisely because they are cheap and made in the developing world by a child on a dollar a day?

I agree he has a point about choice but his example leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[fromderinside]

Insufficient information makes decision making easier. The less information you have, the simpler it is to choose.

If you must pick between two cars, and you know nothing about them, then you can just toss a coin.

If you know a little about them, the decision gets harder - One is red and the other is blue. Which to choose - I like blue, but the red one has more chance of being a Ferrari.

Knowing a bit more makes it harder still - They are both Fords (boo). The blue one costs $2,000 more than the red one, but the red one gets better gas mileage. The blue one is ten years old, the red one is only two years old. The blue one was never involved in a crash. The red one was owned by an elderly lady who only ever drove it to the shops. The blue one has a sunroof. The red one has built in GPS. The blue one has cruise control...

The more information you have, the more likely it is that you will pick the option that leads to a better outcome - but at the same time, the harder the decision becomes.

With infinite information, you require an infinite time to decide; but you will always make the best decision.

Depends on the mental disposition of the decision maker, a gambler may just flip a coin.

I should have went into more detail.

The gambler is clear in his goals and expectations, so flipping a coin in order to take a course of action that will determine the state of the rest of his life poses no problems for him.

Clarity comes in many forms.

All choices are coin flips. Pandering to the notion of mind is subject to phenomenal thinking. Off the edge of the world again.

 

[Shafees]

When a goal, and the pathway to that goal, is clear in one's mind there is no need to make a choice in relation to that goal. There are no options that require considering (the pathway being fully understood). It is with incomplete information that complications arise when a course of action needs to be analyzed decisions based on the analysis of incomplete information need to be made. The need too contemplate and consider are a sign of confusion (to whatever degree) due to insufficient information. An Omniscient Being, should One exist has no need to contemplate, consider or decide. The so called 'decision' is an inherit part of complete knowledge as an action knowingly performed.

So basically exactly what I said.
Choices are either driven by motive or impulsive in nature.

When our impulses are satisfied by a plethora of choice we then loose the capacity to be driven by motive.
There are no motivating forces, no ethics or rules that you hold because you want to hold them and you become dissatisfied with life because everything is a wash, or a game with no finality, no direction to where you want to be.

 

[DBT]

Depends on the mental disposition of the decision maker, a gambler may just flip a coin.

I should have went into more detail.

The gambler is clear in his goals and expectations, so flipping a coin in order to take a course of action that will determine the state of the rest of his life poses no problems for him.

Clarity comes in many forms.

All choices are coin flips. Pandering to the notion of mind is subject to phenomenal thinking. Off the edge of the world again.

The mind is what the brain is doing. What the brain is doing is processing information...which is difficult to compare with 'coin flips' in relation to option selecting neural activity.

 

[fromderinside]

ah but no monsieur. The brain is adding up decisions into a go decision all of which are switches driven by preponderance of inputs resulting in an effective coin flip.

 

[DBT]

ah but no monsieur. The brain is adding up decisions into a go decision all of which are switches driven by preponderance of inputs resulting in an effective coin flip.

Sorry, but I don't see how the coin flip analogy applies to neural connectivity. Maybe a more detailed description will help.

 

[Kharakov]

Straw, camel, back.

Grain of sand, 2 grains, beach.

One of the above is not the correct analogy.

 

[DBT]

Well, that explains everything.

 

[Under the Rose]

I would suggest that we have an excess of options in the grocery store in some products, salad dressings, canned beans, soup and shampoo being some examples that spring quickly to mind.

Each time Kraft Salad Dressing changes price, I must deploy 39 price changes. A mere 24 for the canned beans, about 36 for the Campbells soup and 38 for Pantene Shampoo and Conditioner.

Remember that all of these are just one of the brands of that product. There are several others with almost as many variants.

The irony is that many of these 'brands' come out of the same facility with minor tweaks and different labels.

Too many options and no real choices.

Simplify. Make your own in most cases.

That's my choice and I use an alternate brand of shampoo and stick with the formula and scent I like. I will be horrified when they delete or change it, as inevitably they will.

 

[fromderinside]

ah but no monsieur. The brain is adding up decisions into a go decision all of which are switches driven by preponderance of inputs resulting in an effective coin flip.

Sorry, but I don't see how the coin flip analogy applies to neural connectivity. Maybe a more detailed description will help.

Really? In the beginning there was Sherrington, then Eccles, Hodgkin, and Huxley, then Katz, von Euler, and Axlerod, then Carlsson, Greengard, and Kandel. I think you'll find most of the connectivity issues answered by the work of these luminaries. It comes down switches, gaps, ions, and neurochemicals accepting and communicating with other cells. The congruence of neural outputs and action are related as fair comparisons with ideal observers in a decision theory paradigm.

nuff?

 

[Shafees]

s there a case for taking some of them away?

Certainly there is a case for stopping manufacturers making one item and then branding it in several ways to give the illusion of choice.

And if a clear message could not be provided through the marketing a single entity for multiple differing consumers then it might force manufacturers to restrict their branding activity. This could open the door to other manufacturers which might be a good thing for the marketplace.

The free market should never be called into question.

With what Barry stipulates there is obviously a case for education to focus on the important choices that people would never have to confront if the marketplace were king.
This suggests that the free market should have no power over our schools.

And the curriculum of schools should not just be focused on academia or job-related courses, but should foster dialogue on philosophy as a means of addressing issues without really providing a right or wrong answer.

The government should not be dictating values to our children, nor should our teachers be dictating values past those of discipline and hard work. Our children should be allowed to determine the answers to the great questions themselves through the exploration of great works of literature, thought, ethics and religion.

 

[Bronzeage]

Who is going to choose which choices remain available and which ones will be taken away?

After that, who is going to judge whether the choices we made with our limited options have done any good?

 

[DBT]

Sorry, but I don't see how the coin flip analogy applies to neural connectivity. Maybe a more detailed description will help.

Really? In the beginning there was Sherrington, then Eccles, Hodgkin, and Huxley, then Katz, von Euler, and Axlerod, then Carlsson, Greengard, and Kandel. I think you'll find most of the connectivity issues answered by the work of these luminaries. It comes down switches, gaps, ions, and neurochemicals accepting and communicating with other cells. The congruence of neural outputs and action are related as fair comparisons with ideal observers in a decision theory paradigm.

nuff?

Needs more. Synapses open or closed....sort of like a coin flip, but not arbitrary in terms of application.

 

[Bronzeage]

Really? In the beginning there was Sherrington, then Eccles, Hodgkin, and Huxley, then Katz, von Euler, and Axlerod, then Carlsson, Greengard, and Kandel. I think you'll find most of the connectivity issues answered by the work of these luminaries. It comes down switches, gaps, ions, and neurochemicals accepting and communicating with other cells. The congruence of neural outputs and action are related as fair comparisons with ideal observers in a decision theory paradigm.

nuff?

Needs more. Synapses open or closed....sort of like a coin flip, but not arbitrary in terms of application.

Every flip of the coin has a 50/50 chance of being heads. It doesn't matter if the coin starts out heads up or tails up. If our decisions were made by synapses which switch states for a poorly measured length of time and then come to rest, the coin toss might be a better analogy.

I have always been amused by the paradox of knowledge. Information makes the process of making a decision easier, but it makes to process of making a guess more difficult.

If a person is presented with a problem, and they know three possible solutions to the problem, if one of their potential solutions is the real answer, they have a one in three chance of being correct.

A more knowledgeable person may know twenty seven possible solutions. If this person must make a guess, the odds are not very good.