Choosing to wear hijab is an endorsement of the oppression that created the custom

[ronburgundy]

The hijab issue has created a divide among liberals and feminists who otherwise share a desire to reduce the oppression of women.

Those who focus upon the women forced to wear it, see it as a symbol of oppression. Those who focus on the women who choose to wear it, especially in western democracies see it as a symbol of freedom.

Those who claim that wearing the hijab is compatible with feminism, typically argue that this b/c some women choose to wear it.

There should be no law requiring wearing or not wearing the hijab.
However, I would argue that when it is worn freely and by choice, that is precisely when it most endorses and trivializes the oppression of women.

You can not make any kind of statement when you are merely doing something that you have no choice in. It's only chosen actions that make a statement. And since people can clearly endorse oppression, people can clearly use their freedom to endorse a lack of freedom.

The practice of wearing a hijab was created to control and oppress women. And violent force against women is the only reason it ever became a custom that reflects Islamic belief. Islamic women in democracies that choose to wear it, are doing so b/c it's an Islamic custom and therefore wearing it is a way to express their religious beliefs. But it only became a custom that reflects those beliefs b/c of violent oppression, and that oppression that still exist in countries controlled by Islam and is the reason why the vast majority of women who wear it do so. There can be no reasonable doubt that with liberty and equality, the custom of the hijab would disappear over time. So, wearing it as a choice endorses that oppression that created and maintains the custom. It's like treating the continued oppression of those forced to wear into a kind of fashion statement. It helps to hide the fact that the majority of women who wear it only do so b/c of oppression.

Women should NOT be forcibly prevented from wearing a hijab, but they they should not celebrated for doing so, and it should be criticized for the way such a choice promotes and endorses a custom that only exists b/c of historical and continued violent oppression of women.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why is wearing a hijab oppression? It is a head scarf that doesn't cover the face.

The niqab (apparently that is a thing too) and burka would be the oppressive form of clothing which acts to almost make a woman's presence vanish in public.

 

[fast]

Tying the historical beginnings to the current happenings seems inappropriate. How ghastly the origins of a custom may be does itself speak to the custom’s current state of affairs. If marriage had a horrible history but now isn’t, then okay, it might not have become what it is today, but the celebration of how things are is not an endorsement or acceptance of its early evolutionary development.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

 

[ronburgundy]

Why is wearing a hijab oppression? It is a head scarf that doesn't cover the face.

The niqab (apparently that is a thing too) and burka would be the oppressive form of clothing which acts to almost make a woman's presence vanish in public.

Women occassionally wearing a head scarf is not a hijab. Women wearing one to represent their Islamic beliefs is a hijab, and it is only represents that and is only a custom b/c of centuries of violence forcing women to wear it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?

You answered your own question. The entire hairstyle industry says hello. Some women also choose to wear no makeup.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why is wearing a hijab oppression? It is a head scarf that doesn't cover the face.

The niqab (apparently that is a thing too) and burka would be the oppressive form of clothing which acts to almost make a woman's presence vanish in public.

Women occassionally wearing a head scarf is not a hijab. Women wearing one to represent their Islamic beliefs is a hijab, and it is only represents that and is only a custom b/c of centuries of violence forcing women to wear it.

Looking it up...

A hijab in common English usage is a veil worn by some Muslim women in the presence of any male outside of their immediate family, which usually covers the head and chest.

Hmm, I suppose that portion is bullshit.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

By Ron's logic here how is a woman choosing to wear a shirt on a hot day not also just based on oppression?

These are two points along the same spectrum. It's why nudists talk about freedom, but is personal modesty not also a thing?

 

[ronburgundy]

In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

Idiotic false equivalence. Women everywhere, regardless of law choose to cover their breasts most of the time. What women cover their head everytime they leave the home or even in the home when non-familial males enter? Almost exclusively Islamic women raised in cultures where the practice was forced upon women, which includes those now western countries but who were forced by their Islamic sub-culture to wear one since childhood. Unless you want to claim that Islamic women are genetically determined to prefer to do something that all other women are not, then it is clearly a case of cultural force and coercion, and proves if there was no such coercion, almost none of the women currently "choosing" to wear one would choose it.

The custom and "culture" would not exist w/o the continued use of violence to forces and association between it and being an Islamic woman. So, there is no way to practice that aspect of their culture without inherently endorsing that violence that created and sustains it as part of the culture.

 

[ronburgundy]

Why is wearing a hijab oppression? It is a head scarf that doesn't cover the face.

The niqab (apparently that is a thing too) and burka would be the oppressive form of clothing which acts to almost make a woman's presence vanish in public.

Women occassionally wearing a head scarf is not a hijab. Women wearing one to represent their Islamic beliefs is a hijab, and it is only represents that and is only a custom b/c of centuries of violence forcing women to wear it.

Looking it up...

A hijab in common English usage is a veil worn by some Muslim women in the presence of any male outside of their immediate family, which usually covers the head and chest.

Hmm, I suppose that portion is bullshit.

That definition fits perfectly with what I said. It is tied to misogynistic practices within Muslim culture and enforced by Islamic laws which are the sole reason that it has an association with being Muslim, which in turn is the reason why Muslim women in the west "choose" to wear it. Your attempt to pretend the it is nothing but a head scarf and that any women that puts on a scarf when it's cold is doing the same thing as wearing a hijab in intellectually dishonest bullshit. That's like claiming that blackface is nothing but "wearing makeup"

 

[ronburgundy]

In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?

A headscarf isn't being modest, but a headscarf isn't a hijab and a hijab is not merely a headscarf, despite your attempts at false equivalence. A hijab is when a headscarf is worn as part of the Muslim custom, which is solely a custom created to force women to cover up around males, and that violent force is the sole reason why it is part of Muslim culture, which in turn is the sole reason why Muslim women in the west choose" to wear one beyond random occasions as a fashion accessory or shield from cold.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Looking it up...

A hijab in common English usage is a veil worn by some Muslim women in the presence of any male outside of their immediate family, which usually covers the head and chest.

Hmm, I suppose that portion is bullshit.

That definition fits perfectly with what I said. It is tied to misogynistic practices within Muslim culture and enforced by Islamic laws which are the sole reason that it has an association with being Muslim, which in turn is the reason why Muslim women in the west "choose" to wear it. Your attempt to pretend the it is nothing but a head scarf and that any women that puts on a scarf when it's cold is doing the same thing as wearing a hijab in intellectually dishonest bullshit.

Is there some other sort of text I'm supposed to write to elaborate on conceding a point?

 

[J842P]

In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?

Because in many cultures, including Western culture up until very recently, modesty included covering your hair.

 

[ronburgundy]

Looking it up...

A hijab in common English usage is a veil worn by some Muslim women in the presence of any male outside of their immediate family, which usually covers the head and chest.

Hmm, I suppose that portion is bullshit.

That definition fits perfectly with what I said. It is tied to misogynistic practices within Muslim culture and enforced by Islamic laws which are the sole reason that it has an association with being Muslim, which in turn is the reason why Muslim women in the west "choose" to wear it. Your attempt to pretend the it is nothing but a head scarf and that any women that puts on a scarf when it's cold is doing the same thing as wearing a hijab in intellectually dishonest bullshit.

Is there some other sort of text I'm supposed to write to elaborate on conceding a point?

Sorry. People don't usually refer to their own comment as "bullshit", even in the rare instance of conceding the comment was wrong. You're fairly knowledgeable, so I assumed you had to know that a hijab was particular to being worn around males. So, I assumed you were somehow suggesting that my tethering the hijab to Islamic misogyny was bullshit. My bad.

 

[ronburgundy]

In Ontario is is legal for women to walk around in public topless with breasts exposed. When women choose to cover their chests with shirts, is that an endorsement of oppression of women too?

The hajib and niqab are often chosen by women who decide to wear them in the west for the sake of personal modesty and to keep lustful eyes off of them. They wear niqab and hajib instead of ski masks because it is more socially accepted and fits their culture.

How is a head scarf being modest? Other than preventing people from having Farrah Fawcet hair?

Because in many cultures, including Western culture up until very recently, modesty included covering your hair.

Correct. Religious based misogyny was used to coerce female appearance in many other societies as well, showing "modesty" as well as to signal that one was "married", which for women amounted to being owned in such societies.
The reason it is no longer typical in the West is precisely b/c it was always a result of force and coercion. So, as soon as women were granted more freedom and more protection from violent coercion, they did away with the practice.

IOW, it is a cultural practice that is inherently tethered to violent oppression of women, and has a very strong negative correlation with equal rights and personal liberty for women. The "choice" to do it is highly related to whether one was shaped by and/or continues to adhere to those ideologies that continue to use that form of female control, and therefore ties to societies controlled by such ideologies where such practices continue to be violently enforced.

 

[Toni]

I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

 

[ronburgundy]

I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.

No, she's saying "I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."

Just that.

Personally, I think the statement would be better as "I really wish people would quit trying to tell others what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."

That is not saying anything about speech in general or the ethical consequences of actions; it takes as much critical view of assholes forcing women to wear as it does of assholes telling women what they should not wear. It says both behaviors, rightly are bigoted bullshit.

 

[ronburgundy]

I don't think it is so customary anymore but in most Catholic churches until perhaps mid-20th century, women customarily covered their heads in church as a symbol of modesty and piety.

Again: I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear.

IOW, you think that no one should critique the content of another persons speech or the ethical consequences of their actions, unless they are the same gender as that person. That's gonna put a cramp in your efforts to criticize the misogynistic behaviors of men.

Also, yes, religious misogyny was coerced on Christian women too. The practice of such head covering died as a direct result of women's rights being culturally advanced and women be able to shape their own customs without authoritarian coercion. It remains a strong custom in Islam b/c the majority of Muslims live in societies where Islam has authoritarian control over women, and thus reinforce that to be Muslim is to adhere to this oppressive custom, even if one lives in country where one could legally get away with not doing so.

No, she's saying "I really wish men would quit trying to tell women what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."

Just that.

Personally, I think the statement would be better as "I really wish people would quit trying to tell others what they can and cannot or should or should not wear."

So, if a person wears black-face or a t-shirt saying "I hate Ni&&ers!", you would tell everyone that it's none of their business and they shouldn't say anything about what other people wear.

That is not saying anything about speech in general or the ethical consequences of actions; it takes as much critical view of assholes forcing women to wear as it does of assholes telling women what they should not wear. It says both behaviors, rightly are bigoted bullshit.

Utter nonsense. What a person wears is an action and a form of speech. It can have consequences that impact others and thus is just as much part of ethics as how people vote and what they say. And the hijab is defined as part of a religious ideology and thus is inherently a speech act and endorsement of that ideology.

What is bigoted is claiming people cannot voice their opinion about those consequences and ethics unless they are of a particular gender. IF you tell a white man not to wear black face are you being bigoted for telling them that if you are not a white man yourself? That is absurd. Criticizing the hijab is not about telling women what to wear as a women. Most woman don't and wouldn't freely choose to wear one, and the only reason it is only women wearing them is b/c of sexism in the first place. Your argument is like saying that if a group of women starting wearing a dress that said "Fags will go to hell", then it would be sexist to criticize them b/c it's women wearing it b/c it's a dress.