Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc - why does your god need you to proselytize for him?

[Tigers!]

God works in mysterious ways, that is what sat some Christians say about Trump.

And some Christians can be absolute idiots in what they think at times.

 

[Tigers!]

It would seem that if God were omnipotent, the amount of time and energy it would take to simultaneously speak to every single person who ever has lived, is alive or will live would be exactly the same as it would take to speak to one person at one point in time. So, if God actually took the time out of his day to speak to one person, why not just speak to everybody while he's at it? Since he's also omniscient, each one of those conversations could be crafted to have the maximal effect for the person he's speaking to as well, so there'd be zero doubt or confusion about who he is or what he wants once the conversation is finished.

For someone who threatens such dire consequences for those who disobey him, a little bit of due diligence on his part to ensure the proper message gets out would be somewhat omnibenevolent of him.

Would you listen if he did?

Of course I would. He would have specifically crafted the message he gave to one which would have had the maximal effect for me. It would be the perfect ideal of exactly what I needed to hear

I believe that he already has that message for you.

and his 100% success rate in getting people to listen, understand and believe in his message would include his message to me.

So the message has been delivered and now we await your response Tom

After listening to a perfectly tailored message from an omnipotent and omniscient being, I would have no more choice in believing what he told me than I'd have a choice in believing that fire burns after sticking my hand into one. Every possible objection and counter argument to what he was saying would have already been taken into account and put into the message before I had a chance to come up with them, so there would be no possibility of any doubts remaining in my mind after the conversation.

All of that tells me you have probably decided not to listen.
Your excuses, rationalisations, evasions are ready and lined up.
God's message is one of grace.
All of that you have said previously applies to a robot, machine etc. You are more than that. A robot knows only duty not the possibility of grace.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

No, it hasn’t been delivered. An omniscient entity would know exactly what to deliver to me and that has not occurred.

If there somebody waiting for a response because he failed to effectively deliver a message and I’m currently unaware that he’s waiting for me, then the guy who delivered that nesssge isn’t an omniscient person.

 

[Rhea]

Of course I would. He would have specifically crafted the message he gave to one which would have had the maximal effect for me. It would be the perfect ideal of exactly what I needed to hear

I believe that he already has that message for you.

and his 100% success rate in getting people to listen, understand and believe in his message would include his message to me.

So the message has been delivered and now we await your response Tom

What makes you believe you are qualified to know that?
This is a genuine question.
Why do you feel so powerfully wise that you are able to claim this is knowledge that you have?

After listening to a perfectly tailored message from an omnipotent and omniscient being, I would have no more choice in believing what he told me than I'd have a choice in believing that fire burns after sticking my hand into one. Every possible objection and counter argument to what he was saying would have already been taken into account and put into the message before I had a chance to come up with them, so there would be no possibility of any doubts remaining in my mind after the conversation.

All of that tells me you have probably decided not to listen.
Your excuses, rationalisations, evasions are ready and lined up.

Remember we are not talking about whether Tom likes god or worships go or follows god.
We are ONLY talking about whether Tom is convinced god EXISTS.
And the fact that you don't think your god is capable of giving Tom what he needs to realize god even exists.

God's message is one of grace.
All of that you have said previously applies to a robot, machine etc. You are more than that. A robot knows only duty not the possibility of grace.

This here is weird.
Only robots are capable of knowing for sure whether things exist?

Are my kids robots because I have given them unequivocal knowledge that I exist?
Your robot comment might make sense if you were talking about being forced to like the god or obey the god, but please remember that here we are only talking about knowing the god exists at all.

And you claim only robots can be reliably convinced that gods exist? That doesn't make any sense.
Are you a robot? You believe your god has given you all the information you need to feel certain he exists. So you are a Robot, right?
OR
Are you saying you "believe" in the existence of your god even though you don't really believe it?


Then there's this weird "rebel/bad child" theory that if you can't FIND god, it's your own fault.
That's one of the disgusting cruelties of your religion. It's sick.
If you can't FIND god, you're a bad person who is making excuses.

This is why the humans who call themselves Christian are not to be trusted. They are pretty malignant and very ready to call people bad, irredeemable and punishable, just for not being able to find some information.

 

[Rhea]

Also, are all the angels robots? They have no choice in knowing whether or not Yahweh exists, right?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, are all the angels robots? They have no choice in knowing whether or not Yahweh exists, right?

Ya, the whole robot thing makes no sense at all. I imagine that most Christians are 100% convinced that God exists and if he showed up one day to speak to them directly, their attitude would be along the lines of "Oh, how polite of the man. It was nice of him to pop by". Having direct, confirmatory evidence of God's existence wouldn't change their position on him at all. He's a person that exists and sometimes people who exist interact with other people - it's not much of a thing.

I don't see why an atheist getting this type of direct, confirmatory evidence would produce much of a reaction beyond "Oh, I guess he took the time to demonstrate that I was wrong and that he actually exists - how polite of the man. It was nice of him to pop by".

 

[4321lynx]

Rhea said:

Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc - why does your god need you to proselytize for him?

I have not read the thread and do not intend to take any part in it, but have always understood that Jews do not proselytize for their god and are rather reluctant to accept candidates for conversion to their faith. Is that a wrong impression?

 

[bilby]

Also, are all the angels robots? They have no choice in knowing whether or not Yahweh exists, right?

Ya, the whole robot thing makes no sense at all. I imagine that most Christians are 100% convinced that God exists and if he showed up one day to speak to them directly, their attitude would be along the lines of "Oh, how polite of the man. It was nice of him to pop by". Having direct, confirmatory evidence of God's existence wouldn't change their position on him at all. He's a person that exists and sometimes people who exist interact with other people - it's not much of a thing.

I don't see why an atheist getting this type of direct, confirmatory evidence would produce much of a reaction beyond "Oh, I guess he took the time to demonstrate that I was wrong and that he actually exists - how polite of the man. It was nice of him to pop by".

So you don't think you would be all, "Nooooo! My free will!! My precious, precious free will is GONE!!!", then?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So you don't think you would be all, "Nooooo! My free will!! My precious, precious free will is GONE!!!", then?

Probably not. I imagine that the algorithm which would lead to that sort of reaction would be one of the first things God takes out of my brain when he turns me into a robot.

 

[Lion IRC]

Proselytizing is needed because god isn't real and because it makes the political control mechanism more useful for those with political power.

 

[steve_bank]

Rhea said:

Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc - why does your god need you to proselytize for him?

I have not read the thread and do not intend to take any part in it, but have always understood that Jews do not proselytize for their god and are rather reluctant to accept candidates for conversion to their faith. Is that a wrong impression?

That is generally correct.

 

[4321lynx]

Rhea said:

Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc - why does your god need you to proselytize for him?

I have not read the thread and do not intend to take any part in it, but have always understood that Jews do not proselytize for their god and are rather reluctant to accept candidates for conversion to their faith. Is that a wrong impression?

That is generally correct.

You sound certain, so thank you.

 

[Rhea]

That is generally correct.

You sound certain, so thank you.

And yet they expect the rest of the world to cater to the empire building, which is based on a religious mandate. I would submit that the expectation for the world to accept their illegal settlements IS evangelizing.

Just - in the context of, "why does your god need YOU to speak for him?"

 

[steve_bank]

That is generally correct.

You sound certain, so thank you.

I grew up in the NYC area and have known Jews as an adult. Orthodox Jews can be just as extreme as conservative Muslims in a broad sense, but I have never known a Jew who tried to convert anyone.

As I understand it to convert you mutt first live as a Jew for some time and then make your case before a religious court.

Normally if you are born to it acceptance is based on the matriarchal line in your family. That is why some see Jews as racists and Israel as a racists state. You can not get citizenship unless you are Jewish.

 

[steve_bank]

That is generally correct.

You sound certain, so thank you.

And yet they expect the rest of the world to cater to the empire building, which is based on a religious mandate. I would submit that the expectation for the world to accept their illegal settlements IS evangelizing.

Just - in the context of, "why does your god need YOU to speak for him?"

This is off topic, however after debate among the Palestine Jews Israel was founded as a secular state. Within the bounds of Israel there exists western style freedom of religion, granted there is bias. A high degree of autonomy is given to all religion. Israel is less religious and more secular than you may think. They had gay rights well before the west. Netanyahu made a bargain with religious conservatives to build a coalition to stay in power. That coalition does not represent all Jews and narrowly stayed in power in the last election.

It is helpful to develop some understanding before making sweeping anti Jew rants.

While there may be valid criticisms of modern Israel, given the long history of European anti Semitism ending in the attempt to exterminate Jews I think Jews declaring a state and building a Jewish fortress refuge for global Jews is quite understandable.

 

[Lion IRC]

To the extent that Christianity is a branch - an outgrowth - of Judaism which has overtaken its initial rootstock, it would be more accurate to say that Judeo-Christianity continues now more than ever to fulfill its role as God's chosen messengers.

What was Isaiah if not an evangelist? Was not John The Baptist an evangelical prophet? Who can read Elijah or Jonah or Hosea without hearing a preacher warning pagans (non-Jews) that they should obey the One True God?

 

[Politesse]

To the extent that Christianity is a branch - an outgrowth - of Judaism which has overtaken its initial rootstock, it would be more accurate to say that Judeo-Christianity continues now more than ever to fulfill its role as God's chosen messengers.

What was Isaiah if not an evangelist? Was not John The Baptist an evangelical prophet? Who can read Elijah or Jonah or Hosea without hearing a preacher warning pagans (non-Jews) that they should obey the One True God?

Nevertheless, this is a Christian and not Jewish perspective on those writings and persons.

 

[Lion IRC]

To the extent that Christianity is a branch - an outgrowth - of Judaism which has overtaken its initial rootstock, it would be more accurate to say that Judeo-Christianity continues now more than ever to fulfill its role as God's chosen messengers.

What was Isaiah if not an evangelist? Was not John The Baptist an evangelical prophet? Who can read Elijah or Jonah or Hosea without hearing a preacher warning pagans (non-Jews) that they should obey the One True God?

Nevertheless, this is a Christian and not Jewish perspective on those writings and persons.

Well I think I can justify my perspective in secular terms. You don't have to be Jewish or Christian to have a perspective on whether Old Testament prophets were evangelical.

Atheists can recognize proselytising whether it was done by a Jewish Saul of Tarsus or a Jewish Jesus of Nazareth or a Zionist living in New York. See Rhea's post regarding the ability to proselytize in more than one way.

 

[bilby]

To the extent that Christianity is a branch - an outgrowth - of Judaism which has overtaken its initial rootstock, it would be more accurate to say that Judeo-Christianity continues now more than ever to fulfill its role as God's chosen messengers.

What was Isaiah if not an evangelist? Was not John The Baptist an evangelical prophet? Who can read Elijah or Jonah or Hosea without hearing a preacher warning pagans (non-Jews) that they should obey the One True God?

Nevertheless, this is a Christian and not Jewish perspective on those writings and persons.

Well I think I can justify my perspective in secular terms. You don't have to be Jewish or Christian to have a perspective on whether Old Testament prophets were evangelical.

That's true, but you overlook the fact that you DO have to be non-secular to have the belief that the Old Testament prophets were non-fiction.

Atheists can recognize proselytising whether it was done by a Jewish Saul of Tarsus or a Jewish Jesus of Nazareth or a Zionist living in New York. See Rhea's post regarding the ability to proselytize in more than one way.

Sure; And we can recognize fighting crime whether it's done by Senior Sergeant Jones at Brisbane Watch-house, Clark Kent in Metropolis, or Bruce Wayne in Gotham City. But we may not hold the latter two up as examples of actual crime fighting, rather than examples of tales told about the fighting of crime.

Tales of prehistoric evangelism are not good evidence of actual prehistoric evangelism; They are only good evidence that the people who promote the tales today want us to think that prehistoric evangelism was a thing.

In short, you may be right about early evangelism; Or you may be wrong - but the methodology you are attempting cannot tell us which, because (and I cannot stress this enough) the Bible is NOT A HISTORY BOOK.

It is a hugely biased document re-written and heavily edited several times, with the most recent major overhaul less than 500 years ago. As such, it is a poor guide to past events.

 

[Rhea]

And yet they expect the rest of the world to cater to the empire building, which is based on a religious mandate. I would submit that the expectation for the world to accept their illegal settlements IS evangelizing.

Just - in the context of, "why does your god need YOU to speak for him?"

This is off topic, however after debate among the Palestine Jews Israel was founded as a secular state. Within the bounds of Israel there exists western style freedom of religion, granted there is bias. A high degree of autonomy is given to all religion. Israel is less religious and more secular than you may think. They had gay rights well before the west. Netanyahu made a bargain with religious conservatives to build a coalition to stay in power. That coalition does not represent all Jews and narrowly stayed in power in the last election.

It is helpful to develop some understanding before making sweeping anti Jew rants.

While there may be valid criticisms of modern Israel, given the long history of European anti Semitism ending in the attempt to exterminate Jews I think Jews declaring a state and building a Jewish fortress refuge for global Jews is quite understandable.

Hi Steve, I'm pretty good on being aware that #NotAllJews, since I have family that lives there. But just as I feel that I need to fight my own government and protest against the cruel and criminal things they do in the world with my money and in my name, so, too, do I expect Israelis are either with their government who is doing this or are actively fighting them in either word or deed. Maybe some Jews are sitting by while a government harms people thinking, "well it doesn't apply to me," but that doesn't seem to fit, yanno? Meanwhile, the Jewish government in Israel, the one that passed a law in June 2018 that they are a Jewish Nation, not a secular one, is continuing to expand their territory by force. Which is about as "evangelical" as one can get, no?

So indeed let's ask, Why does Yahweh need the humans to declare Israel a Jewish State? Why did they need to pass that law? Because Yahweh isn't strong enough to create it without the help of the Knesset? A truly potent god would "lead the hearts" of all the non Jews to desire to leave the place. But he doesn't seem able. So the humans decide they need to give Yahweh an assist.