I used to have your position. The position I have now is me having budged after being educated on the matter.
You don't even seem to understand my position, so it may be premature of you to say it is a position you used to have
Just read the articles. A MTF elite athlete after transition can just keep going as before. They're rarely notable.
They are quite notable when they attempt to compete in Female sports, due to the controversy over attempting to do so. That is the whole point. I agree that when a MTF transgender continues competing as a male, this would be less than notable as there is no barrier to do so. They generally do not have to prove they are male to compete. Similarly FTM transgenders competing in male sports is less notable, given that there is less need to prove that they are male. That is not to say there is no controversy here, as there certainly is, it just isn't as controversial as MTF transgenders competing in female sports.
FTM are extreme outliers. The discrepancy is extreme.
In what way? Certainly not when it comes to controversy. Controversy often drives notoriety, so it seems we should expect more notable MTF transgenders competing in female sports to be categorized as "notable" in a wikipedia article, even if the numbers are similar.
What you are demonstrating is that you don't care about the transexual cause, or what would help them. You don't care about what is true or reasonable. It's all about winning an ideological battle against the evil conservatives. I agree that conservatives, in this case, are evil and are opposing transvestites for fucked up reasons. But the wokes have taken this and run with it and are fighting an unnecessary battle.
This is where you show that you have not idea what my position is. Of course I care about transexuals, quite personally in fact. I don't believe I have mentioned conservatives in this thread, and I don't consider them evil. I have conservatives in my family who have accepted transgenders so I know they are individuals as well. I have said before that I do not consider myself to be woke, so your description of those who you think are fighting an unnecessary battle does not describe me. I will also note that I have known quite a few transvestites in my time, and they are not the same as transgenders. I even counted a conservative transvestite Police Officer among my friends in the 90's.
What the transexuals have been fighting for since the 60'ies aren't to be seen as their preferred gender.
I don't know any transgenders who have been fighting for anything since the 60s. Neither of the transgenders I know personally were even born in the 60s. Those that I do know do want to be seen as the gender to which they have transitioned. I also realize that transgenders are individuals, and there are likely to be many (perhaps more) who prefer to be seen as transgenders rather than the gender to which they have transitioned.
They've been going on and on about wanting to be seen as a third gender. What they want is the legal rights of the preferred gender. MTF transexuals want to be able to dress and live as women, but without being seen as women in every way. They seem to be cool with that.
Like everyone else, they want to be accepted as who they are. Who they perceive themselves to be will be quite varied, just as with cis-genders.
I understand that it's hard to talk about a large group of people, with as many opinions on this, as there are transexuals. But as a rule, these guys are all very different and have very different ways of identifying themselves.
As a rule we should not be imposing rules upon them. They are individuals with individual opinions, that is the only way we are going to understand them. Saying that they all want one thing or another, or that they all fit into these convenient packages is where I disagree with you.
To force the rest of society to accept transexuals are their preferred gender, I don't think that is what they want.
You are entitled to your opinion, however, you should be aware that what you think transgenders want has absolutely no bearing on what they actually want.
Regardless more than one example was provided.
You're treating this is a battle to be won by pointing to discreet numbers without caring about what the numbers represent.
I am not. I am treating this as you having made a statement of fact that easily dismissible by providing a single example. If you feel that you are waging a battle that must be won, you should probably be less prone to making blanket statements of fact that are easily proven wrong with a single example. Take this as an opportunity to improve your argument, as I did not even realize we were engaged in battle, and I would prefer that we both come to an understanding of one another rather than one of us walking away claiming victory.
But it doesn't matter, since this is a sport almost nobody cares about. For this discussion it's irrelevant.
Who is the arbiter of which sports matter? What is your favorite sport? I only ask so I can tell you how that sport does not matter.
How much spectators are willing to pay for it? Salaries for athletes tend to be a good metric.
Incorrect. The arbiter of which sports matter are the participants and spectators of the sport in question. I can tell you that your favorite sport does not matter, and you can tell me that my favorite sport does not matter. Doing so would be inconsequential, as it would be highly unlikely to cause either one of us to cease feeling that our favorite sport matters.
Again, you're laser focused on finding any scrap of evidence, no matter if it's relevant or not, to win this argument. I think you're loyalty to the trans cause is misplaced.
Again, if your argument is so flimsy that "any scrap of evidence" is enough to show it is incorrect, you likely need to rethink your argument. I have no loyalty to the "trans cause". I have loyalty to my friends and family who are transgender, and I would like to see them accepted in society in general. I do not see relegating transgender athletes to the status of former athlete, or coach because they have transitioned as having generally accepted them in society.
Are you going to discuss this honestly, or are you only going to fall back on debate techniques and logical trickery? Extreme outliars and statistical anomalies are hardly interesting in this discussion, are they?
I feel that I am discussing this honestly. I feel the honesty is lacking on your side, as you have made some statements that seem uncompromising, and have not been very charitable about being corrected on those statements. I have never been on a debate team, and don't really have any tactics. For the most part, I am just reading things, noting discrepancies that I think are relevant, and trying to bring those discrepancies to light, while also providing my point of view and a personal anecdote or two. you don't have to respond if you think the things I am discussing are irrelevant.
Then our views of eachothers character is not great.
I would just like to say that your having made a bad argument in this case does not mean I have a negative view of your character. A person of honest character can occasionally slip into making dishonest statements. It is the ability or inability to acknowledge having done so that would be more revealing of character. I have seen you display the ability to do so in the past, so I do not see you as a person of dishonest character. Your failing to budge at all on those uncompromising statements made in this thread is beginning to give me cause to rethink that view, but the weight of your posting history on TFT over the years is enough to keep this one discussion from impacting that view much. I would hope that my posting history would show the same about me, but if you feel that I am a person of dishonest character I suppose my reputation here is not quite what I thought it was. Please point out when I am being dishonest, and I will endeavor to do better.
Don't you think the "transexuals in sports debate" is hurting the trans acceptance cause?
No. I think people with entrenched positions they are unwilling to rethink are hurting the trans acceptance cause.
Back when I had entrenched positions I was arguing like you. Now I have rethought it. This is me opening up and quitting with being such an ass. I think I was before.
This statement leaves no room for compromise, and is non-factual:
"For FTM transexual elites athletes they all quit after their gender change. If they stay in the industry they switch to coaching."
Same with this statement:
"No athletes will compete if they know in advance they haven't a hope in hell."
You have yet to acknowledge that either of these uncompromising statements are incorrect, despite having been shown, using your own source, that they are incorrect. That seems like the definition of an entrenched position to me.
Because if I were a trans athlete, I would want to be able to compete in those sports I enjoy as the gender to which I have transitioned. In short, empathy.
Is it really empathy? Be honest now.
I think so. Perhaps you can show me that it is not empathetic to try to put oneself in the same position as another, but that would be a hard sell.
When I was arguing like you I didn't really care about the transexuals. If I did I would have looked up what they were saying. I thought I knew what they were saying. So I didn't need to do that homework.
I know transgenders personally, I know what those transgenders are saying. One thing I know is that not all transgenders are, or identify as, transexuals. When I look at what transgenders are saying, I see that they are individuals saying different things, so I try to avoid making statements that paint them as monolithic.
What changed it for me was following Janae/Ray Kroc.
I'm into powerlifting. I was a fan of Ray Kroc when she was a he.
Following transition Janae Kroc initially arguing for that trans women should be allowed to compete against CIS-women but later changed her mind. I followed her process through this and her changing her mind on it.
To sum it up, it's complicated. If it's empathy, try empathizing with that instead.
https://medium.com/the-establishmen...anae-kroc-isnt-finished-dreaming-f1248f39e120
https://www.instagram.com/janaemariekroc/?hl=en
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janae_Kroc
No, it's not just her. It goes to the root of the entire transexual movement and what their spokespeople and thinkers have been saying all along.
I certainly did not always have my current view on transgenders. As a young man I was quite transphobic, as well as homophobic. My experience in the military changed that, as a very good friend of mine confided in me that she was gay, and exposed me to a large gay and transvestite community. This was before gays were allowed in the military, and she was later dishonorably discharged for being gay. It was actually after her discharge that I really began to mingle with that community and understand them more. This softened my view of transgenders, but it was decades later before I got to know transgenders and eventually came to my current understanding. I will admit I have not read much about the subject, and honestly do not know much about the "transexual movement" (do you mean transgender movement?), however, my nephew, who is a FTM transgender, is a well known transgender activist in our local area. Call it empathy, sympathy, or whatever you like, he is a person I love, and I want him to be accepted for who he his. He is Grayson Alexander, and you can learn more about him here:
Grayson Alexander talks history-making role, politics, future plans
The wokes just suck at listening to what the transexuals want. Today there's quite a few visible transexual activists who are able to speak for themselves, rather than needing white CIS-saviors to speak for them.
How many times do I have to say I do not consider myself to be "woke"? Maybe you are not trying to lump me with the "the wokes", but it certainly seems like that from my perspective. My nephew is a transgender activist, as noted above. When he speaks about transgender issues, I can assure that I listen to him, and do not try to tell him what he thinks or feels. My friend who is a MTF transgender is not an activist, and has much different issues and and experiences than Gray. I listen to her when she speaks about transgender issues, and don't tell her that Gray has a different perspective so her perspective cannot be correct. They can both speak for themselves, and I agree that they generally have no need for others to speak for them. That includes "transexual activists" with whom they may not agree.
