CIS gender versus TRANS gender... the throphies?

[Metaphor]

You'll notice that sport has age divisions, too.

Pathetic age-groupers. You are either on the top podium or you are getting a participation trophy. Once you age out it is time to hang it up or just participate and understand that you'll never win again. Most age-groupers never won anything anyway. The elite athletes retire and ride off into the sunset. You don't see them primping and posing at the local 5k all intense like it is the fucking olympics.

I don't care if there are age groupings or sex groupings. I care that if there are, only the people who qualify to be in them are in them. I wouldn't condone a 21 year old in an under-14s team and I wouldn't condone a 21 year old in the 50-59 category either.

 

[repoman]

You'll notice that sport has age divisions, too.

Pathetic age-groupers. You are either on the top podium or you are getting a participation trophy. Once you age out it is time to hang it up or just participate and understand that you'll never win again. Most age-groupers never won anything anyway. The elite athletes retire and ride off into the sunset. You don't see them primping and posing at the local 5k all intense like it is the fucking olympics.

As pathetic as MTF athletes then.

Good KiwiFarms thread on MTF cyclist

https://kiwifarms.net/threads/dr-rachel-mckinnon-dr-veronica-ivy-rhys-mckinnon-rachel-veronica-mckinnon-foxy-moxy-sportisaright.49422/

 

[DrZoidberg]

Male transgenders who are not allowed to compete in male sports and end up competing in female sports dominate women's sport. Seems to be the hormones. Right now there are a lot of barriers to transgenders competing in sport, so I don't think there is much data available to show that transgender males are inconsequential in men's sport. Let them play, and we are sure to find examples of consequential male transgenders in male sport.

We will never get that data. Athletes are a self selected group. No athletes will compete if they know in advance they haven't a hope in hell.

After hormone treatment the most important difference is skeletal. Male anatomy can generate more power. There is no way to fix that.

 

[KeepTalking]

Male transgenders who are not allowed to compete in male sports and end up competing in female sports dominate women's sport. Seems to be the hormones. Right now there are a lot of barriers to transgenders competing in sport, so I don't think there is much data available to show that transgender males are inconsequential in men's sport. Let them play, and we are sure to find examples of consequential male transgenders in male sport.

We will never get that data. Athletes are a self selected group. No athletes will compete if they know in advance they haven't a hope in hell.

You are incorrect. There are plenty of athletes who play for the love of the game. I played basketball in High School, as a guard who averaged 4 points a season. I knew in advance that I had no hope in hell of winning any award, but I played because I enjoyed it.

After hormone treatment the most important difference is skeletal. Male anatomy can generate more power. There is no way to fix that.

Does that actually make a difference in every athletic competition?

 

[DrZoidberg]

You are incorrect. There are plenty of athletes who play for the love of the game. I played basketball in High School, as a guard who averaged 4 points a season. I knew in advance that I had no hope in hell of winning any award, but I played because I enjoyed it.

Ok, fine. Then where are they?

For FTM transexual elites athletes they all quit after their gender change. If they stay in the industry they switch to coaching.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#Trans_men

They're so few FTM transexual athletes that have achieved any results of note that we can study all of their lives stories in under an hour. Not the same story at all when it comes to MTF transexuals. Why aren't those numbers the same, do you think?

After hormone treatment the most important difference is skeletal. Male anatomy can generate more power. There is no way to fix that.

Does that actually make a difference in every athletic competition?

It shouldn't. But it seems so. That data suggests as much.

I still maintain that this is a pseudo debate driven by Woke CIS people. Transexuals, in general, seem to be uncomfortable that they are being used as an ideological battering ram, when it comes to transexual athletes. The vast majority seem to accept that having been a man offers an unfair advantage. I've seen more interviews and articles with transexuals vocaly opposing trans athletes competing against CIS athletes, than I've seen transexuals arguing for it.

 

[scombrid]

You'll notice that sport has age divisions, too.

Pathetic age-groupers. You are either on the top podium or you are getting a participation trophy. Once you age out it is time to hang it up or just participate and understand that you'll never win again. Most age-groupers never won anything anyway. The elite athletes retire and ride off into the sunset. You don't see them primping and posing at the local 5k all intense like it is the fucking olympics.

I don't care if there are age groupings or sex groupings. I care that if there are, only the people who qualify to be in them are in them. I wouldn't condone a 21 year old in an under-14s team and I wouldn't condone a 21 year old in the 50-59 category either.

I would like to know how many trans girls/women are actually trying to compete in women's sports are and what is there success level. I only know a couple of trans women and they are not athletic in the least. The successful woman athletes that I know (and I know a lot more of them than I do trans folks because of my background in athletics) are built like teenage men, especially the middle and long distance runners. The PED use is rampant at all levels in all disciplines. Woman kayakers/canoers and rowers are built like brick shithouses. USADA and WADA are fucking toothless. Unless there gets to be some epidemic of trans athletes dominating women's sports then this really looks like blatant discrimination against trans, especially when dealing with something as frivolous as recreational athletic competition.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't care if there are age groupings or sex groupings. I care that if there are, only the people who qualify to be in them are in them. I wouldn't condone a 21 year old in an under-14s team and I wouldn't condone a 21 year old in the 50-59 category either.

I would like to know how many trans girls/women are actually trying to compete in women's sports are and what is there success level. I only know a couple of trans women and they are not athletic in the least. The successful woman athletes that I know (and I know a lot more of them than I do trans folks because of my background in athletics) are built like teenage men, especially the middle and long distance runners. The PED use is rampant at all levels in all disciplines. Woman kayakers/canoers and rowers are built like brick shithouses. USADA and WADA are fucking toothless. Unless there gets to be some epidemic of trans athletes dominating women's sports then this really looks like blatant discrimination against trans, especially when dealing with something as frivolous as recreational athletic competition.

In what way is it 'discriminating' against trans people? Sports are separated by sex: it is not discriminating against trans people to say "you are qualified to compete in your sex category". It's the same standard applied to cis people.

 

[KeepTalking]

Ok, fine. Then where are they?

Quite literally everywhere. It really does not matter, however, as the wikipedia link that you provided shows that male transgenders are competing at the highest levels of male sport, and winning.

For FTM transexual elites athletes they all quit after their gender change. If they stay in the industry they switch to coaching.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#Trans_men

The wikipedia link you provide does not provide support for your contention. In fact, it includes FTM transgenders who have won in their sport after transitioning and competing as males.

They're so few FTM transexual athletes that have achieved any results of note that we can study all of their lives stories in under an hour. Not the same story at all when it comes to MTF transexuals. Why aren't those numbers the same, do you think?

Your wikipedia link does include 3 times as many notable MTF transgenders as FTM, but why are they notable? In many cases, they are notable because of the controversy they caused by trying to compete after their transition. In general there is quite a bit less controversy with FTM transgenders competing as males after transitioning. In fact, in most cases, there are no barriers for them to compete at all, unlike MTF transgenders, and they do not have to "prove" their gender or hormone levels. There could be quite a few FTM transgenders competing as males without even revealing their transgender status.

Does that actually make a difference in every athletic competition?

It shouldn't. But it seems so. That data suggests as much.

You are incorrect. The data is actually beginning to suggest that women are better at endurance competitions in swimming and running, like ultra-marathons:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49284389
Essentially, the longer the race, the better women do.

I still maintain that this is a pseudo debate driven by Woke CIS people. Transexuals, in general, seem to be uncomfortable that they are being used as an ideological battering ram, when it comes to transexual athletes. The vast majority seem to accept that having been a man offers an unfair advantage. I've seen more interviews and articles with transexuals vocaly opposing trans athletes competing against CIS athletes, than I've seen transexuals arguing for it.

Well, since several of the assumptions you seem to base this opinion upon appear to be incorrect, I would hope you might re-examine this belief of yours.

 

[Elixir]

Stumbled upon this... I'm sorry - it's sad. Made me laugh though.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Liberty University -- THE Liberty, in Lynchburg, Virginia, has no policy statement that restricts its transgendered, cross-dressing, or drag queen students from participating in any sporting event whatever.

 

[Elixir]

Liberty University -- THE Liberty, in Lynchburg, Virginia, has no policy statement that restricts its transgendered, cross-dressing, or drag queen students from participating in any sporting event whatever.

Well, their teams are all named "flames" .... so waddyaspeck?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ah, so you don't want them competing with anyone. Exactly how is a transgender female taking a performance enhancing drug?

There is a lifetime advantage from development done while male.

 

[Emily Lake]

The wikipedia link you provide does not provide support for your contention. In fact, it includes FTM transgenders who have won in their sport after transitioning and competing as males.

Unless I'm missing something in my reading, I count ONE FTM that competed against other mails and won. That being Patricio Manuel, who one a single match against Hugo Aguilar... and did not compete in any other boxing matches afterward.

 

[KeepTalking]

Ah, so you don't want them competing with anyone. Exactly how is a transgender female taking a performance enhancing drug?

There is a lifetime advantage from development done while male.

That does not sound like a drug to me, performance enhancing or otherwise.

 

[KeepTalking]

The wikipedia link you provide does not provide support for your contention. In fact, it includes FTM transgenders who have won in their sport after transitioning and competing as males.

Unless I'm missing something in my reading, I count ONE FTM that competed against other mails and won. That being Patricio Manuel, who one a single match against Hugo Aguilar... and did not compete in any other boxing matches afterward.

You are missing something. Not that it matters, since one is not enough to prove to you that FTM transgenders can compete in male sport and win, then two will not be enough, nor will three or more.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Quite literally everywhere. It really does not matter, however, as the wikipedia link that you provided shows that male transgenders are competing at the highest levels of male sport, and winning.

The wikipedia link you provide does not provide support for your contention. In fact, it includes FTM transgenders who have won in their sport after transitioning and competing as males.

No, it doesn't. You didn't read the FTM articles did you?

They're so few FTM transexual athletes that have achieved any results of note that we can study all of their lives stories in under an hour. Not the same story at all when it comes to MTF transexuals. Why aren't those numbers the same, do you think?

Your wikipedia link does include 3 times as many notable MTF transgenders as FTM, but why are they notable? In many cases, they are notable because of the controversy they caused by trying to compete after their transition. In general there is quite a bit less controversy with FTM transgenders competing as males after transitioning. In fact, in most cases, there are no barriers for them to compete at all, unlike MTF transgenders, and they do not have to "prove" their gender or hormone levels. There could be quite a few FTM transgenders competing as males without even revealing their transgender status.

I'm sorry the data doesn't back up your claim. You are grasping at straws.

You are incorrect. The data is actually beginning to suggest that women are better at endurance competitions in swimming and running, like ultra-marathons:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49284389
Essentially, the longer the race, the better women do.

Congratulations on finding a single extreme example. What exactly does that prove? What about the other sports?

I still maintain that this is a pseudo debate driven by Woke CIS people. Transexuals, in general, seem to be uncomfortable that they are being used as an ideological battering ram, when it comes to transexual athletes. The vast majority seem to accept that having been a man offers an unfair advantage. I've seen more interviews and articles with transexuals vocaly opposing trans athletes competing against CIS athletes, than I've seen transexuals arguing for it.

Well, since several of the assumptions you seem to base this opinion upon appear to be incorrect, I would hope you might re-examine this belief of yours.

It's not assumptions and I don't think they're incorrect. I started out on the woke side, and like you once argued for it, but have, reluctantly, had to concede that I was wrong.

To me trans issues is like the abortion issue. Let the people it impacts make up their own mind about what they think, and the rest of us can just leave them alone to sort it out on their own. Transexuals don't seem to care about trans athleteticism that much. They have other stuff more important them to worry about. The trans athlete issue seems, to the trans community, to be an utter bullshit issue just used to distract us away from what actually matters to trans people. We (ie the woke and non-woke CIS crowd) like the debate because it's easy and with clear sides, and we can bash each others heads in with science articles and dodgy statistics. But it's nothing but a distraction. I also think wokes are being assholes using transexuals as a battering ram to fight their woke proxy war against the evil evil conservatives. Don't get me wrong, conservatives are also assholes on this. But it's not a fight with a good and an evil side. It's two groups of assholes battling it out, completely ignoring the needs of the people they're supposedly fighting for.

The primary problem for transexuals is that few people want to hire them. For jobs. Most people are freaked out about being around transexuals. It's the basics they care about. The transexual athletes issue is hardly helping them in creating greater acceptance for trans people in society in general.

 

[KeepTalking]

No, it doesn't. You didn't read the FTM articles did you?

I did read a couple of them, not all. It was enough to find this information
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricio_Manuel

He made his professional debut on a Golden Boy Promotions event on December 8, 2018 in Indio, California, scoring a four-round unanimous decision victory over Hugo Aguilar, with all three judges scoring the bout 39–37.[5] Aguilar only knew of Manuel's transition two days prior to the bout. He stated "For me it's very respectable... It doesn't change anything for me. In the ring he wants to win and I want to win too."

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

In 2019, Mosier won two National Championships in Race Walking

Perhaps you did not peruse those links as thoroughly as you thought you did.

Your wikipedia link does include 3 times as many notable MTF transgenders as FTM, but why are they notable? In many cases, they are notable because of the controversy they caused by trying to compete after their transition. In general there is quite a bit less controversy with FTM transgenders competing as males after transitioning. In fact, in most cases, there are no barriers for them to compete at all, unlike MTF transgenders, and they do not have to "prove" their gender or hormone levels. There could be quite a few FTM transgenders competing as males without even revealing their transgender status.

I'm sorry the data doesn't back up your claim. You are grasping at straws.

What data are you using to come to that conclusion, and in what way does the data fail to back up my claim? I am not even sure which claim of mine you are disputing. Please be more specific.

You are incorrect. The data is actually beginning to suggest that women are better at endurance competitions in swimming and running, like ultra-marathons:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49284389
Essentially, the longer the race, the better women do.

Congratulations on finding a single extreme example.

Only a single example is required, however, as this covers ultra endurance in multiple sports including swimming, running, and cycling, I would say this is more than a single example.

What exactly does that prove?

It proves that you were incorrect when you made the following statement:

Does that actually make a difference in every athletic competition?

It shouldn't. But it seems so. That data suggests as much.

I would hope that you might acknowledge as much in hopes of fostering positive communication.

I still maintain that this is a pseudo debate driven by Woke CIS people. Transexuals, in general, seem to be uncomfortable that they are being used as an ideological battering ram, when it comes to transexual athletes. The vast majority seem to accept that having been a man offers an unfair advantage. I've seen more interviews and articles with transexuals vocaly opposing trans athletes competing against CIS athletes, than I've seen transexuals arguing for it.

Well, since several of the assumptions you seem to base this opinion upon appear to be incorrect, I would hope you might re-examine this belief of yours.

It's not assumptions and I don't think they're incorrect.

I think I have adequately shown that some of your assumptions were incorrect.

I started out on the woke side, and like you once argued for it, but have, reluctantly, had to concede that I was wrong.

To me trans issues is like the abortion issue. Let the people it impacts make up their own mind about what they think, and the rest of us can just leave them alone to sort it out on their own. Transexuals don't seem to care about trans athleteticism that much. They have other stuff more important them to worry about. The trans athlete issue seems, to the trans community, to be an utter bullshit issue just used to distract us away from what actually matters to trans people. We (ie the woke and non-woke CIS crowd) like the debate because it's easy and with clear sides, and we can bash each others heads in with science articles and dodgy statistics. But it's nothing but a distraction. I also think wokes are being assholes using transexuals as a battering ram to fight their woke proxy war against the evil evil conservatives. Don't get me wrong, conservatives are also assholes on this. But it's not a fight with a good and an evil side. It's two groups of assholes battling it out, completely ignoring the needs of the people they're supposedly fighting for.

The primary problem for transexuals is that few people want to hire them. For jobs. Most people are freaked out about being around transexuals. It's the basics they care about. The transexual athletes issue is hardly helping them in creating greater acceptance for trans people in society in general.

For the record, I don't consider myself to be woke, or on the "woke side". I do have a transexual in my family, and another who is a friend. I recognize that they are individuals, some are athletic, some are not. Those who are athletes, I would suspect, certainly care about being able to compete in their chosen sport. Of course there are larger issues with accepting transgenders in general, but that does not mean that we have to ignore the issue of transgenders in competitive sports until every other transgender issue is solved.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I did read a couple of them, not all. It was enough to find this information
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricio_Manuel

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

In 2019, Mosier won two National Championships in Race Walking

Perhaps you did not peruse those links as thoroughly as you thought you did.

All I see is somebody desperately grasping at straws. Give it a rest. There's a massive discrepancy between FTMs and MTFs the wikipedia article demonstrates it.

What data are you using to come to that conclusion, and in what way does the data fail to back up my claim? I am not even sure which claim of mine you are disputing. Please be more specific.

I know you've read the same data I have. YOU JUST LINKED TO IT ABOVE!

Congratulations on finding a single extreme example.

Only a single example is required

No, it's not. Obviously. The only thing that matters is comparing statistics. FTM's and MTF's performance after transition should roughly match. If they don't, you don't have an argument.

It proves that you were incorrect when you made the following statement:

Ok, fine. I'll give you this one. But it doesn't matter, since this is a sport almost nobody cares about. For this discussion it's irrelevant.

Are you going to discuss this honestly, or are you only going to fall back on debate techniques and logical trickery? Extreme outliars and statistical anomalies are hardly interesting in this discussion, are they?

I think I have adequately shown that some of your assumptions were incorrect.

What?

For the record, I don't consider myself to be woke, or on the "woke side". I do have a transexual in my family, and another who is a friend. I recognize that they are individuals, some are athletic, some are not. Those who are athletes, I would suspect, certainly care about being able to compete in their chosen sport. Of course there are larger issues with accepting transgenders in general, but that does not mean that we have to ignore the issue of transgenders in competitive sports until every other transgender issue is solved.

Don't you think the "transexuals in sports debate" is hurting the trans acceptance cause? I mean, it is total bullshit, and easy for conservative dicks to shoot down. Why give them an easy target by getting up in arms about something which is a demonstrably false?

 

[KeepTalking]

All I see is somebody desperately grasping at straws. Give it a rest.

And all I see is someone refusing to budge from and entrenched position. If you don't like my showing that your statements are inaccurate, then perhaps you are the one who should give it a rest.

There's a massive discrepancy between FTMs and MTFs the wikipedia article demonstrates it.

There is a discrepancy, whether it should be termed as "massive" is a matter for debate. Wikipedia shows about 1/3 as many notable FTM athletes as MTF athletes. Is 2/3 a massive fraction? What does it even mean to be notable from the perspective of the wiki authors?

What data are you using to come to that conclusion, and in what way does the data fail to back up my claim? I am not even sure which claim of mine you are disputing. Please be more specific.

I know you've read the same data I have. YOU JUST LINKED TO IT ABOVE!

That is less specific, not more. Which specific claim of mine are you disputing, and which specific data set (wikipedia is not a data set) are you using to dispute that claim.

Congratulations on finding a single extreme example.

Only a single example is required

No, it's not. Obviously.

Yes, it is. Which is quite obvious when one realizes that it is disputing the following claim:

For FTM transexual elites athletes they all quit after their gender change. If they stay in the industry they switch to coaching.

Regardless more than one example was provided.

The only thing that matters is comparing statistics.

Not in this case, when the statement being examined made no appeal to statistics, and was presented as a an unsupported fact. The only thing that matters is that the fact is not factual.

It proves that you were incorrect when you made the following statement:

Ok, fine. I'll give you this one.

Thanks, I appreciate that you are able to concede a point. That is definitely not a given around here.

But it doesn't matter, since this is a sport almost nobody cares about. For this discussion it's irrelevant.

Who is the arbiter of which sports matter? What is your favorite sport? I only ask so I can tell you how that sport does not matter.

Are you going to discuss this honestly, or are you only going to fall back on debate techniques and logical trickery? Extreme outliars and statistical anomalies are hardly interesting in this discussion, are they?

I feel that I am discussing this honestly. I feel the honesty is lacking on your side, as you have made some statements that seem uncompromising, and have not been very charitable about being corrected on those statements. I have never been on a debate team, and don't really have any tactics. For the most part, I am just reading things, noting discrepancies that I think are relevant, and trying to bring those discrepancies to light, while also providing my point of view and a personal anecdote or two. you don't have to respond if you think the things I am discussing are irrelevant.

I think I have adequately shown that some of your assumptions were incorrect.

What?

I don't think that is a difficult statement to understand.

For the record, I don't consider myself to be woke, or on the "woke side". I do have a transexual in my family, and another who is a friend. I recognize that they are individuals, some are athletic, some are not. Those who are athletes, I would suspect, certainly care about being able to compete in their chosen sport. Of course there are larger issues with accepting transgenders in general, but that does not mean that we have to ignore the issue of transgenders in competitive sports until every other transgender issue is solved.

Don't you think the "transexuals in sports debate" is hurting the trans acceptance cause?

No. I think people with entrenched positions they are unwilling to rethink are hurting the trans acceptance cause.

I mean, it is total bullshit, and easy for conservative dicks to shoot down. Why give them an easy target by getting up in arms about something which is a demonstrably false?

Because if I were a trans athlete, I would want to be able to compete in those sports I enjoy as the gender to which I have transitioned. In short, empathy.

That is not to say that at the highest levels of sporting competition there should not be restrictions on such things as testosterone levels. Even at lower levels of competition they may make sense, but if we don't talk about the issue at all, it is no way helping transgenders to be seen as people deserving of quality of life just like everyone else. As a result, I think not talking about it is actually detrimental to transgender acceptance in all sectors of society.

 

[Emily Lake]

The wikipedia link you provide does not provide support for your contention. In fact, it includes FTM transgenders who have won in their sport after transitioning and competing as males.

Unless I'm missing something in my reading, I count ONE FTM that competed against other mails and won. That being Patricio Manuel, who one a single match against Hugo Aguilar... and did not compete in any other boxing matches afterward.

You are missing something. Not that it matters, since one is not enough to prove to you that FTM transgenders can compete in male sport and win, then two will not be enough, nor will three or more.

I don't need it "proved" to me. I accept the possibility that a female human taking testosterone may reach a level of athleticism that allows for a high degree of professional competition. But given the underlying biological differences between male and female builds, I give it very low probability.

By they same token, it's possible for a male human taking testosterone blockers reduce their level of athleticism to a degree that allows for a fair competition against females. But I give that a fairly low probability as well.

Both of those scenarios acknowledge that on some rare occasions, an unaltered female can beat an unaltered male, but that such is very rare. It takes an exceptional female and a fairly mediocre male for that to occur for anyone beyond puberty.

Ballparking probabilities for illustration... a transman taking testosterone and competing against males may have a 5% chance of winning (which I consider generous). On the other hand, a transwoman on testosterone blockers and competing against females may have an 80% chance of winning (which I think is low).