Coal miners refuse retraining because Trump promised to bring back coal jobs

[Samhain]

What's the training for? How to be unemployed?

Training is pointless without jobs.

If you had read the linked article, you might have noticed that they reported Walmart opted out of placing a store there because of a lack of WILLINGNESS to be trained. THEY are creating the lack of jobs by willfully maintaining a lack of education, specifically because they state that Trump promised them coal mining jobs.

Please quote the relevant section.

What I'm reading describes a HOPE that a large company will locate in the area, not a refusal.

Yes, these workers are deluded to believe in Trump. Yes, they should take advantage of any opportunity to improve their employability.

But I can't be too hard them for being proud and feeling like they've done nothing wrong, and not wanting to admit they need help. They will eventually knuckle under, but it's not the preferred way to enlightenment IMO. I watched this unfold in Michigan years ago. It ain't pretty. Those workers were also all morons in the opinion of many, usually comfortably far away. Shit, addicts get more understanding.

My point is this: the economy is designed to keep a measure of workers unemployed. That's a feature, not a bug. Retraining as a solution to the loss of an industry and +30k jobs is either cynical or clueless.

The situation is not going to get better for many industries. If you've been following the tech industry, even at a cursory level, you've probably already realized that huge job shortages in a great many fields are coming up in the not-so-distant future due to automation, and unfortunately for us, no one is really talking about it. I am working in IT for a company that has just recently made the decision to go public. Right across from my office is a training center for truck drivers. There's a lot of foot traffic and due to our proximity to quite a few warehouses in the area I often see 18-wheelers with training logos stamped on the side. That's a job that is going to be rapidly phased out in the next 10-15 years if not sooner with the implementation of automated vehicles. From a business perspective there's very little, if anything at all, to be gained by utilizing human drivers instead of automated trucks. Automated trucks allow them to run for longer periods of time, be more efficient on gas mileage, and are also likely to be safer. Retraining is not going to solve this problem either. Google, one of the world's largest companies employs roughly the same amount of people that Sears laid off in 1992. That is a paradigm shift in how employment in general works. We need other solutions to this, and quickly. Retraining is merely a bandaid over a much larger problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Please quote the relevant section.

What I'm reading describes a HOPE that a large company will locate in the area, not a refusal.

Yes, these workers are deluded to believe in Trump. Yes, they should take advantage of any opportunity to improve their employability.

But I can't be too hard them for being proud and feeling like they've done nothing wrong, and not wanting to admit they need help. They will eventually knuckle under, but it's not the preferred way to enlightenment IMO. I watched this unfold in Michigan years ago. It ain't pretty. Those workers were also all morons in the opinion of many, usually comfortably far away. Shit, addicts get more understanding.

Here is the trouble. These idiots are bitching about the Government (read "Democrats") "forgetting" about them. Trump plans on cutting off all funding to an Appalachian fund for training workers, nothing from these people. They are given direct opportunity for training to help them get jobs, they walk away from it. But they keep voting red because the 'Democrats forgot them'. These same people were probably quite happy supporting the very fracking that killed their jobs.

These people are proud... but also really willfully ignorant.

Sure. And they're not unusual that respect. Has nothing to do with my point. Just for a moment, try to remove judgement of the workers from your analysis. Pretend they're all green Dem environmentalists or something. Are they getting a square deal?

They are victims mainly of automation. Yet, allow themselves to be fooled into blaming Obama for their job losses.

Are they getting a square deal? I'm not certain what a "square deal" looks like. Is it additional funding into Appalachia to help deal with the fact there aren't that many jobs in the middle of nowhere to help sustain towns that no longer have a reason to exist? How much is enough? Are these people aware Trump wants to cut it all?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Please quote the relevant section.

What I'm reading describes a HOPE that a large company will locate in the area, not a refusal.

Yes, these workers are deluded to believe in Trump. Yes, they should take advantage of any opportunity to improve their employability.

But I can't be too hard them for being proud and feeling like they've done nothing wrong, and not wanting to admit they need help. They will eventually knuckle under, but it's not the preferred way to enlightenment IMO. I watched this unfold in Michigan years ago. It ain't pretty. Those workers were also all morons in the opinion of many, usually comfortably far away. Shit, addicts get more understanding.

My point is this: the economy is designed to keep a measure of workers unemployed. That's a feature, not a bug. Retraining as a solution to the loss of an industry and +30k jobs is either cynical or clueless.

The situation is not going to get better for many industries. If you've been following the tech industry, even at a cursory level, you've probably already realized that huge job shortages in a great many fields are coming up in the not-so-distant future due to automation, and unfortunately for us, no one is really talking about it. I am working in IT for a company that has just recently made the decision to go public. Right across from my office is a training center for truck drivers. There's a lot of foot traffic and due to our proximity to quite a few warehouses in the area I often see 18-wheelers with training logos stamped on the side. That's a job that is going to be rapidly phased out in the next 10-15 years if not sooner with the implementation of automated vehicles. From a business perspective there's very little, if anything at all, to be gained by utilizing human drivers instead of automated trucks. Automated trucks allow them to run for longer periods of time, be more efficient on gas mileage, and are also likely to be safer. Retraining is not going to solve this problem either. Google, one of the world's largest companies employs roughly the same amount of people that Sears laid off in 1992. That is a paradigm shift in how employment in general works. We need other solutions to this, and quickly. Retraining is merely a bandaid over a much larger problem.

So you are saying that there is no alternative to large numbers of unemployed workers?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Sure. And they're not unusual that respect. Has nothing to do with my point. Just for a moment, try to remove judgement of the workers from your analysis. Pretend they're all green Dem environmentalists or something. Are they getting a square deal?

They are victims mainly of automation. Yet, allow themselves to be fooled into blaming Obama for their job losses.

Are they getting a square deal? I'm not certain what a "square deal" looks like. Is it additional funding into Appalachia to help deal with the fact there aren't that many jobs in the middle of nowhere to help sustain towns that no longer have a reason to exist? How much is enough? Are these people aware Trump wants to cut it all?

It's the sort of question that shouldn't require a lot of reflection. Let me try another way: does the situation for them suck?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sure. And they're not unusual that respect. Has nothing to do with my point. Just for a moment, try to remove judgement of the workers from your analysis. Pretend they're all green Dem environmentalists or something. Are they getting a square deal?

They are victims mainly of automation. Yet, allow themselves to be fooled into blaming Obama for their job losses.

Are they getting a square deal? I'm not certain what a "square deal" looks like. Is it additional funding into Appalachia to help deal with the fact there aren't that many jobs in the middle of nowhere to help sustain towns that no longer have a reason to exist? How much is enough? Are these people aware Trump wants to cut it all?

It's the sort of question that shouldn't require a lot of reflection. Let me try another way: does the situation for them suck?

You asked if they were getting a "square deal". I'm curious how much federal spending is needed to consider it "square".

Between October 2015 and January 2017 alone, the ARC supported 63 projects in Kentucky totaling $31.9 million, the agency said Thursday. That spending, which has been matched by more than $65 million in other aid, is projected to create or retain more than 1,200 jobs and provide education or workforce training to more than 2,300 people in the state’s 54 ARC counties, the agency said.

There is an organization dedicated to this region. They spent $166 million within in it in 2016. This is odd seeing that Government has "forgotten" them.

Yeah, it sucks that the industry they work in is adjusting. Welcome to the world! All industries have changed over the last 40 years, many of which flat out evaporated from the country, one needs to adapt. Some refuse to adapt, some refuse to understand the real causes of the hurt, some just want to blame the black guy.

 

[Horatio Parker]

It's the sort of question that shouldn't require a lot of reflection. Let me try another way: does the situation for them suck?

You asked if they were getting a "square deal". I'm curious how much federal spending is needed to consider it "square".

I take it that's a "yes".

Between October 2015 and January 2017 alone, the ARC supported 63 projects in Kentucky totaling $31.9 million, the agency said Thursday. That spending, which has been matched by more than $65 million in other aid, is projected to create or retain more than 1,200 jobs and provide education or workforce training to more than 2,300 people in the state’s 54 ARC counties, the agency said.

There is an organization dedicated to this region. They spent $166 million within in it in 2016. This is odd seeing that Government has "forgotten" them.

Yeah, it sucks that the industry they work in is adjusting. Welcome to the world! All industries have changed over the last 40 years, many of which flat out evaporated from the country, one needs to adapt. Some refuse to adapt, some refuse to understand the real causes of the hurt, some just want to blame the black guy.

So there is no alternative.

 

[Elixir]

Please quote the relevant section.

What I'm reading describes a HOPE that a large company will locate in the area, not a refusal.

Yes, these workers are deluded to believe in Trump. Yes, they should take advantage of any opportunity to improve their employability.

But I can't be too hard them for being proud and feeling like they've done nothing wrong, and not wanting to admit they need help. They will eventually knuckle under, but it's not the preferred way to enlightenment IMO. I watched this unfold in Michigan years ago. It ain't pretty. Those workers were also all morons in the opinion of many, usually comfortably far away. Shit, addicts get more understanding.

My point is this: the economy is designed to keep a measure of workers unemployed. That's a feature, not a bug. Retraining as a solution to the loss of an industry and +30k jobs is either cynical or clueless.

The situation is not going to get better for many industries. If you've been following the tech industry, even at a cursory level, you've probably already realized that huge job shortages in a great many fields are coming up in the not-so-distant future due to automation, and unfortunately for us, no one is really talking about it. I am working in IT for a company that has just recently made the decision to go public. Right across from my office is a training center for truck drivers. There's a lot of foot traffic and due to our proximity to quite a few warehouses in the area I often see 18-wheelers with training logos stamped on the side. That's a job that is going to be rapidly phased out in the next 10-15 years if not sooner with the implementation of automated vehicles. From a business perspective there's very little, if anything at all, to be gained by utilizing human drivers instead of automated trucks. Automated trucks allow them to run for longer periods of time, be more efficient on gas mileage, and are also likely to be safer. Retraining is not going to solve this problem either. Google, one of the world's largest companies employs roughly the same amount of people that Sears laid off in 1992. That is a paradigm shift in how employment in general works. We need other solutions to this, and quickly. Retraining is merely a bandaid over a much larger problem.

So you are saying that there is no alternative to large numbers of unemployed workers?

Large numbers of dead former miners has already been mentioned... seems to be the "working" alternative. Their average life expectancy is not that great (58.91 y and 49.23 y for surface and underground workers respectively) so that particular segment is only useful as a symbol, not a human problem that this administration is going to try to address (if there is any such thing as a human problem that interests them). In fact, the more they die the better for the Trump junta - their mortality only serves to strengthen the symbolism.

 

[Samhain]

Please quote the relevant section.

What I'm reading describes a HOPE that a large company will locate in the area, not a refusal.

Yes, these workers are deluded to believe in Trump. Yes, they should take advantage of any opportunity to improve their employability.

But I can't be too hard them for being proud and feeling like they've done nothing wrong, and not wanting to admit they need help. They will eventually knuckle under, but it's not the preferred way to enlightenment IMO. I watched this unfold in Michigan years ago. It ain't pretty. Those workers were also all morons in the opinion of many, usually comfortably far away. Shit, addicts get more understanding.

My point is this: the economy is designed to keep a measure of workers unemployed. That's a feature, not a bug. Retraining as a solution to the loss of an industry and +30k jobs is either cynical or clueless.

The situation is not going to get better for many industries. If you've been following the tech industry, even at a cursory level, you've probably already realized that huge job shortages in a great many fields are coming up in the not-so-distant future due to automation, and unfortunately for us, no one is really talking about it. I am working in IT for a company that has just recently made the decision to go public. Right across from my office is a training center for truck drivers. There's a lot of foot traffic and due to our proximity to quite a few warehouses in the area I often see 18-wheelers with training logos stamped on the side. That's a job that is going to be rapidly phased out in the next 10-15 years if not sooner with the implementation of automated vehicles. From a business perspective there's very little, if anything at all, to be gained by utilizing human drivers instead of automated trucks. Automated trucks allow them to run for longer periods of time, be more efficient on gas mileage, and are also likely to be safer. Retraining is not going to solve this problem either. Google, one of the world's largest companies employs roughly the same amount of people that Sears laid off in 1992. That is a paradigm shift in how employment in general works. We need other solutions to this, and quickly. Retraining is merely a bandaid over a much larger problem.

So you are saying that there is no alternative to large numbers of unemployed workers?

I'm not really sure that is what I'm saying. I guess it depends on what you mean by "alternative." In the sense that we don't really have a plan in place to deal with this, I am certain that is true. We need to come to the realization, as a society, that work is not going to be as meaningful for humans in the near future and we need to prepare for the eventuality that there will be droves of unemployed people very soon because industries are changing and dying due to tech, automation and specified AI. Whether massive unemployment will be meaningful from an economic perspective is a matter of choice, but what we need to realize first is that the days of human labor are numbered, or at least will be transformed to an unrecognizable state. There are "alternatives" to this, but job training is not really one of them. We need to rethink the way that capitalism works in general.

 

[Horatio Parker]

So you are saying that there is no alternative to large numbers of unemployed workers?

I'm not really sure that is what I'm saying. I guess it depends on what you mean by "alternative." In the sense that we don't really have a plan in place to deal with this, I am certain that is true. We need to come to the realization, as a society, that work is not going to be as meaningful for humans in the near future and we need to prepare for the eventuality that there will be droves of unemployed people very soon because industries are changing and dying due to tech, automation and specified AI. Whether massive unemployment will be meaningful from an economic perspective is a matter of choice, but what we need to realize first is that the days of human labor are numbered, or at least will be transformed to an unrecognizable state. There are "alternatives" to this, but job training is not really one of them. We need to rethink the way that capitalism works in general.

Agreed. Productivity gains should never be an excuse for marginalizing people. Technology enables economic activity to be discretionary. Not long ago, 90% of the population was needed just to produce sufficient food. Who's to say someone paid to be a fourth at bridge at a senior center is unproductive? The idea that if the private sector doesn't need someone, that person is therefore useless, is pervasive.

I doubt I'd want to drink with many of these miners, or attend their holiday dinners. But it's in my interest that their situations be functional as opposed to dysfunctional.

 

[bilby]

So you are saying that there is no alternative to large numbers of unemployed workers?

I'm not really sure that is what I'm saying. I guess it depends on what you mean by "alternative." In the sense that we don't really have a plan in place to deal with this, I am certain that is true. We need to come to the realization, as a society, that work is not going to be as meaningful for humans in the near future and we need to prepare for the eventuality that there will be droves of unemployed people very soon because industries are changing and dying due to tech, automation and specified AI. Whether massive unemployment will be meaningful from an economic perspective is a matter of choice, but what we need to realize first is that the days of human labor are numbered, or at least will be transformed to an unrecognizable state. There are "alternatives" to this, but job training is not really one of them. We need to rethink the way that capitalism works in general.

^This.

It is baffling to me how we can be in a situation where having robots to do all the hard work for us is actually considered a bad thing.

The problem is not a lack of work; It's a lack of any mechanism for making people who don't work comfortable and happy. Because in an automated society, there's no earthly reason why everyone, or even most people, should work at all. But in our current society, if you don't work, you don't eat. While the handful of guys who own all the machines get Lear jets.

There needs to be a strong mechanism to take a fraction of the wealth generated by machines, and distribute it to everyone who isn't otherwise getting a share. That could be communism (where the machines are run by the government on behalf of the people); or it could be mere socialism (not the American kind, which I just called 'communism'; the European kind, where taxes are high, and people who can't or don't work get given money to spend). The latter is probably better. But the alternative to these is neo-feudalism, where a tiny number of hyper-rich people have whatever they want, and everyone else lives at (or just above, or just below) subsistence level, in general misery.

The thing about neo-feudalism is that it will end the same way that paleo-fuedalism ended - the peasants will start chopping bits off the aristocrats, until they get a share of the wealth, or destroy the ability to create wealth, or both.

Freeloaders were potentially a huge problem in pre-automation society, and so there is a general ingrained fear that any system that allows freeloaders will fail. But freeloaders have always been with us - we call the largest set of them 'children', and give them a pass - and a post-automation society positively needs freeloaders.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't think this board attracts the type of person who wants his coal mining job back. I feel for these blokes but they're presently fucked.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I take it that's a "yes".

Between October 2015 and January 2017 alone, the ARC supported 63 projects in Kentucky totaling $31.9 million, the agency said Thursday. That spending, which has been matched by more than $65 million in other aid, is projected to create or retain more than 1,200 jobs and provide education or workforce training to more than 2,300 people in the state’s 54 ARC counties, the agency said.

There is an organization dedicated to this region. They spent $166 million within in it in 2016. This is odd seeing that Government has "forgotten" them.

Yeah, it sucks that the industry they work in is adjusting. Welcome to the world! All industries have changed over the last 40 years, many of which flat out evaporated from the country, one needs to adapt. Some refuse to adapt, some refuse to understand the real causes of the hurt, some just want to blame the black guy.

So there is no alternative.

Alternative to what?

 

[Worldtraveller]

onto themselves.. and onto the rest of the country with their votes for whomever their churches command.

Black Pastors Are Breaking the Law to Get Hillary Clinton Elected

But what does that have to do with the OP? And I agree, fixation on coal mining is stupid. We will not abandon coal overnight, but its importance will and should wane. And quick.

https://www.snopes.com/did-an-alabama-church-put-up-a-sign-comparing-roy-moore-to-jesus/

There were many (dozens that I remember) of instances of churches campaigning for the trumpster fire and the GOP in 2008. Why didn't you post those if you think it's a problem?

 

[Elixir]

onto themselves.. and onto the rest of the country with their votes for whomever their churches command.

Black Pastors Are Breaking the Law to Get Hillary Clinton Elected

But what does that have to do with the OP? And I agree, fixation on coal mining is stupid. We will not abandon coal overnight, but its importance will and should wane. And quick.

https://www.snopes.com/did-an-alabama-church-put-up-a-sign-comparing-roy-moore-to-jesus/

There were many (dozens that I remember) of instances of churches campaigning for the trumpster fire and the GOP in 2008. Why didn't you post those if you think it's a problem?

Keyword: "black"
'Nuff said?

 

[fromderinside]

West Virginia plans to set fire to Santa when He brings them chunks of coal for Christmas. Trump pleased.

 

[J842P]

onto themselves.. and onto the rest of the country with their votes for whomever their churches command.

Black Pastors Are Breaking the Law to Get Hillary Clinton Elected

But what does that have to do with the OP? And I agree, fixation on coal mining is stupid. We will not abandon coal overnight, but its importance will and should wane. And quick.

https://www.snopes.com/did-an-alabama-church-put-up-a-sign-comparing-roy-moore-to-jesus/

There were many (dozens that I remember) of instances of churches campaigning for the trumpster fire and the GOP in 2008. Why didn't you post those if you think it's a problem?

This is a very circular tu quoque.

 

[LordKiran]

I don't think these people 'deserve' what they're getting and it honestly depresses me to see people be undone by a con artist they put faith and trust in. It might be easy for you all to think "A fool and his money..." But remember that works both ways. You can't ask that people give a damn about the downtrodden and then exalt in schadenfreude when the downtrodden are taken advantage of.

 

[Underseer]

I don't think these people 'deserve' what they're getting and it honestly depresses me to see people be undone by a con artist they put faith and trust in. It might be easy for you all to think "A fool and his money..." But remember that works both ways. You can't ask that people give a damn about the downtrodden and then exalt in schadenfreude when the downtrodden are taken advantage of.

They were told he was a charlatan and they ignored every warning.

They were told that those jobs are not coming back no matter what Trump says, and they ignored what they were told.

Now they have refused job retraining.

At some point you just have to accept that they don't want to be helped.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't think these people 'deserve' what they're getting and it honestly depresses me to see people be undone by a con artist they put faith and trust in. It might be easy for you all to think "A fool and his money..." But remember that works both ways. You can't ask that people give a damn about the downtrodden and then exalt in schadenfreude when the downtrodden are taken advantage of.

They were told he was a charlatan and they ignored every warning.

They were told that those jobs are not coming back no matter what Trump says, and they ignored what they were told.

Now they have refused job retraining.

At some point you just have to accept that they don't want to be helped.

They seem to know how to maximize personal gain and satisfaction, even if they have nothing to show for it. Being right is about being right. And when you're right you're right and nothing anyone says can make you wrong when you know you're right.

There.

 

[Underseer]

I don't think these people 'deserve' what they're getting and it honestly depresses me to see people be undone by a con artist they put faith and trust in. It might be easy for you all to think "A fool and his money..." But remember that works both ways. You can't ask that people give a damn about the downtrodden and then exalt in schadenfreude when the downtrodden are taken advantage of.

They were told he was a charlatan and they ignored every warning.

They were told that those jobs are not coming back no matter what Trump says, and they ignored what they were told.

Now they have refused job retraining.

At some point you just have to accept that they don't want to be helped.

They seem to know how to maximize personal gain and satisfaction, even if they have nothing to show for it. Being right is about being right. And when you're right you're right and nothing anyone says can make you wrong when you know you're right.

There.

In other words, they would rather watch their families starve than admit that they are wrong.