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Colorado club shooter is non-binary, CNN repeatedly misgenders them.

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Metaphor

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Content warning: gender normativity, misgendering, transphobia, sass.

The Colorado club shooter is non-binary, according to their lawyers, and CNN's article mentioning it has been properly pronouned.

It was a different story when CNN talking heads were discussing the revelation live, however.

"I don't know what to say about it, that's not anything we had heard from his background".

"I don't know what to say about that, that's what he is now saying".

"That's the least of his problems" (from a different clip of the same roundtable).

CNN then doubled down on its transphobia and reinforcement of gender expression normativity by speaking to a transwoman who said (of the suspect) "it was obvious from the mugshot, that's a man...that is not a non-binary person...in no way, shape, or form could they appear as a woman the next day". (partial credit for correct pronoun usage, points off for implying gender cannot be fluid and for reinforcing a stereotype of what a non-binary person looks like).
 
Metaphor said:
Content warning: gender normativity, misgendering, transphobia, sass.

The Colorado club shooter is non-binary, according to their lawyers, and CNN's article mentioning it has been properly pronouned.

It was a different story when CNN talking heads were discussing the revelation live, however.

"I don't know what to say about it, that's not anything we had heard from his background".

"I don't know what to say about that, that's what he is now saying".

"That's the least of his problems" (from a different clip of the same roundtable).

CNN then doubled down on its transphobia and reinforcement of gender expression normativity by speaking to a transwoman who said (of the suspect) "it was obvious from the mugshot, that's a man...that is not a non-binary person...in no way, shape, or form could they appear as a woman the next day". (partial credit for correct pronoun usage, points off for implying gender cannot be fluid and for reinforcing a stereotype of what a non-binary person looks like).
Click to expand...
Regardless of whether they are identifying in bad faith, it seems correct to put them in a prison only with people whom they cannot impregnate, and who are exposed to a commensurate level of hormones.

At that point, try them as a person who walked into a club and murdered folks.

Nothing else really matters to the equation and if they want to be called "she" I see no problem with it
 
Ok......

The very similar terms they/them are already in the English language. It means more than one person. "They went to a party.", which denotes that more than one person went to the party. "It was them who robbed my house!" Again, in the context of the word, them denotes more than one person.

Saying like in the title.. "

"Colorado club shooter is non-binary, CNN repeatedly misgenders them...."​

or​

"At that point, try them as a person who walked into a club and murdered folks."

Would mean that CNN has "misgendered" more than one person? Because that is the meaning of them (and they). So the average reader or listener gets to be confused. The second sentence is also confusing to the normal reader. Them? I thought there was only one shooter. Because they/them denotes more than one person or more than one objects.

It does not matter what the shooter thinks, this is a MALE, and as such is a HE, HIM and HIS. When HE is convicted of this crime, HE will be put in a Male prison. Because, he is a male. HE can call himself "non-binary" all he wants. Since from looking at HIS pictures that HE does not look very strong or a fighter, HE might end up being a woman in the prison when he is passed around from inmate to inmate. They might even make HIM wear a wig, high heels and makeup. Does not change HIS chromosomes

I hated this happened, but at least it was a member of "LGBT", if it wasn't, we would be hearing about this for weeks on end. Since it is LGBT person, it will quickly be buried because it doesnt follow the narrative.

How about instead of THEM, which is already a word, we use "Booga Booga"? "A Booga Booga shot up a gay bar last night....."
 
senor boogie woogie said:
<whinging about anodyne they, and misgendering>
Click to expand...
"Waaaah, people are suggesting a use of language that takes away my excuse to assume labels for others".

The anodyne they/them is old and useful, and even were it not as old as it is, it would still be useful and a valid use of language.

Your whinging demands that people use language and classify the world as you do on black and white absolutes is silly. Biology is messier than that, I'm afraid.

It is entirely possible to have a conversation about not putting them where they can impregnate people, without making armchair amateur declarations about their biology.

You don't even need to call them by feminine pronouns.

You don't even need to believe they are acting in good faith.

For all we know they are a straight cis male who hates trans people and shot up the gay club with the intent of smearing trans people by identifying as such a person.

But still, we can afford them that much, and letting them have the consequences of being either being castrated and put on estrogen OR being housed with all the other people who pose a pregnancy risk to those who can get pregnant.

We can do that without calling them a "man". All that bad faith does here is make them look like a self-destroying clown, and screeching whinges of folks who want to pretend like sexual differentiation is an all-or-nothing strict binary are just that.
 
We're taking this on the word of a defendant's lawyer???
 
ZiprHead said:
We're taking this on the word of a defendant's lawyer???
Click to expand...

That was the first thing that popped into my head.
"How do know when a lawyer is lying?"
"Their lips are moving."

I can well imagine any reasonably competent defense lawyers pulling out all the stops on this one.
Tom
 
ZiprHead said:
We're taking this on the word of a defendant's lawyer???
Click to expand...
Did the lawyer say it in court or just to the press?

As we have found out well in the last couple of years that lawyers have no problem lying outside the courtroom but definitely act differently when their careers are potentially on the line.
 
I have no idea what “whinging” is. I take it that it’s a term used against someone whose words you don’t like

Biology isn’t “messy” at all. In humans, lower animals and plants there is male and female. That’s it. In humans the chromosomes we get at conception determines what our sex is.

There are only two sexes, female and male. One cannot change their sex. One can hire an unscrupulous “doctor” to add and remove body parts and do some cosmetic surgery and shoot the person up with testosterone or estrogen but the person’s chromosomes still determine the person’s biological sex. I think most of us learned this in 7th grade science.

I nor the reader or listener of the news should be confused over “they/them” as in “They shot up the gay club. They got the gun from a gun club. They went to college before dropping out.” The term “they/them” denotes two or more people. Again, this is a male who will go to a male prison.

The MAN who is the suspect of this murder did change HIS name. Do we really need a term for everything? Deadnaming? If HE wants to be named Polly Farthead Poopypants, so be it.

I still say Booga Booga is much better than they/them since they/them are already words in English that mean something else.
 
senor boogie woogie said:
Biology isn’t “messy” at all.
Click to expand...
Also, biology isn't much relevant to pronoun usage under most circumstances.

For most of human history sex and gender were inextricably linked. Things were primitive in a raft of ways. That's one of them. Our language norms developed then.
But that was then and this is now. Sorry if you find the modern world complex in ways that make you uncomfortable. There's lots of things about it I don't like either.

One biggy is "How did American conservatives become the party of kissing Russian ass?"
Tom
 
TomC said:
Sorry if you find the modern world complex in ways that make you uncomfortable.
Click to expand...
But words have meaning. If the meaning of words can so easily be charged to fit a political ideology, then language becomes incoherent. Maybe that’s the point.
5a1+John+Tenniel+Humpty+Dumpty.jpg
 
senor boogie woogie said:
. I think most of us learned this in 7th grade science
Click to expand...
Unless you took 7th grade science in 1904, what you were taught was an inaccurate presentation of what was by then known to the scientific community. There is no scientific rationale for defining only two chromosomal patterns, when variations have been empirically observed, essentially for as long as scientists learned how to look for them. Our knowledge of sex chromosome "abnormalities", in fact, well predates the discovery of DNA; the convenience of sex differences occupying the 23rd chromosome meant that they could identify the sex chromosomes by length. And it became immediately clear that apparent sex and chromosomal sex weren't synonyms for all individuals, let alone socially ascribed gender attributes. Neither that all humans have an XX or XY pattern resulting in an analogous apparent sex - these two patterns describes only about 98% of live births. The rest of us exhibit some degree of intersex characteristics, often unbeknownst to those who exhibit them until they try for a pregnancy or take a 23 and Me. And intersexual characteristics are only one of many reasons why a person might identify as transgender or nonbinary.
 
TomC said:
For most of human history sex and gender were inextricably linked. Things were primitive in a raft of ways
Click to expand...
Even such a statement only makes since if one is either deliberately excluding gender trinary and quadrenary cultures from "human history", or is simply unaware that they are, and have for a very long time been, as much a part of human history as gender binary cultures. Victorian attitudes toward sex hold a lot of sway on the popular perspective on "biology" in the US and Europe, but they were never the product of any sort of true global consensus. In truth, the relationship between sex and gender has always been "messy" as senor boogie puts it, even since long before there was any sort of organized international study of sex differentiation.
 
I think the shooter is probably lying about being non-binary. There seems to be no evidence of him declaring that prior to the shooting. Probably did so on the advice of his lawyer, so as to try to avoid additional hate crime charges and perhaps gain some sympathy from a jury. Proving that he is non-binary is going to be problemetic for them though. Sadly, he may get away with it, given the current climate that if someone says they identify as <fill-in-the-blank> then you must believe them and respect their pronoun choice, lest you get branded a bigot or hater.
 
I just clicked on the link @Metaphor posted.

Damn. It actually made feel some sympathy for the guy. If that link is even mostly true, WTF?
Where does family dysfunction end and mental illness begin?
Tom
 
TomC said:
I just clicked on the link @Metaphor posted.

Damn. It actually made feel some sympathy for the guy. If that link is even mostly true, WTF?
Where does family dysfunction end and mental illness begin?
Tom
Click to expand...
I don't understand why you think they are separate?

Tons of dysfunction and tons of mental health issues going back at least a generation and very likely a few.

That said, barring the shooting, I've seen worse IRL.
 
Metaphor said:
Content warning: gender normativity, misgendering, transphobia, sass.

The Colorado club shooter is non-binary, according to their lawyers, and CNN's article mentioning it has been properly pronouned.

It was a different story when CNN talking heads were discussing the revelation live, however.

"I don't know what to say about it, that's not anything we had heard from his background".

"I don't know what to say about that, that's what he is now saying".

"That's the least of his problems" (from a different clip of the same roundtable).

CNN then doubled down on its transphobia and reinforcement of gender expression normativity by speaking to a transwoman who said (of the suspect) "it was obvious from the mugshot, that's a man...that is not a non-binary person...in no way, shape, or form could they appear as a woman the next day". (partial credit for correct pronoun usage, points off for implying gender cannot be fluid and for reinforcing a stereotype of what a non-binary person looks like).
Click to expand...
I’m sorry you were bothered so badly by this. So much to the point that it makes you over look the horror that was the mass murder that only by luck was there someone skilled enough to stop the attack, many more would have been murdered.
 
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Politesse said:
Even such a statement only makes since if one is either deliberately excluding gender trinary and quadrenary cultures from "human history", or is simply unaware that they are, and have for a very long time been, as much a part of human history as gender binary cultures.
Click to expand...

Must be nice up there in your ivory tower, protected from the reality we 99%ers live in.

I'm trying to explain why proper pronoun usage is gendered, not sexed. Also that public restrooms are sexed, not gendered.

From you and Jarhyn to Oleg and Metaphor, the number of people who seem more attached to their own opinions and views than functional civility are legion.
Tom
 
Until we have a better picture of the situation I don't see how we can properly assign pronouns in this case.
 
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