Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[Loren Pechtel]

Where the fuck did they learn to police like this. Admittedly, the professor got too close. At that point intervening officer should step in and ask her to step back, not grab her in any manner.

And blacks be like, why does this shit have to happen to white people before you listen?

And you think asking would magically help?? You think they weren't already told to keep back??

The one that got taken down clearly wasn't going to obey anything but force.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The batons are definitely better than guns, but is the gear really needed? Can't we have those guys on backup in case things do go poorly?

The first guy appears to have ammunition, probably rifle ammunition. The second guy does not. I don't think the third guy does but I'm not sure and I can't tell at all about anyone farther along. Other than that I see stuff like radios, ballistic vests, face shields, medical kits and batons. Other than the magazines that's all reasonable stuff to be bringing.

...to a riot, not a protest. There is a thing called context about appearances mattering. I get the need for being prepared, but the Police in the US have been defaulting to riot gear way too quickly. And it does nothing to help keep a situation calmer as it sends a message to the protestors that they are nothing but criminals.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Where the fuck did they learn to police like this. Admittedly, the professor got too close. At that point intervening officer should step in and ask her to step back, not grab her in any manner.

And blacks be like, why does this shit have to happen to white people before you listen?

And you think asking would magically help??

Yes, especially if you treat the person with respect. One of your issues is you don't get psychology worth a damn.

The video shows a professor showing concern, and approaching, but too close. It is easy to assume the prof was only thinking of the student's well being, she is a Prof after all.

Using this context, yes, an officer stepping in an asking the prof to step back provides the prof an opportunity to step back. The likelihood of her stabbing or shooting the officer is about nil.

If she gets beligerant, this does not give an officer the right to acost her. Officers should be able to manage an unarmed professor who weighs 60% their weight without using any violence at all. If not, they shouldn't be an officer.

You think they weren't already told to keep back??

Point to time stamp they were asked to step back. The incident doean't take long to escalate, mainly at the doing of the officer's inability to manage a scene.

Lots of officers lack a basic sense of humanity, at a first world level.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Mr. James made the comments during and after a disciplinary hearing with Columbia administrators that he recorded and then posted on Instagram.

Sounds like he said some bad shit, and the school called him up on it.

More recently...

Early Friday morning, Mr. James posted a statement on social media addressing his comments. “What I said was wrong,” he wrote. “Every member of our community deserves to feel safe without qualification.” He noted that he made these comments in January before he become involved with the protest movement and added that the leaders of the student protests did not condone the comments. “I agree with their assessment,” he wrote.

Hard to tell whether he is bS'ing or whether he learned from his naive and hateful remarks. Hopefully he did and he grew... unlike other people.

You actually think he is walking them back?!

I have no idea. I don't know the person. What I do know is that he said some nasty shit, the school acted on it, and it is in the realm of possibility that he needed to do some training or program or something as required by the school to understand that the violwnt bigotry he expoused was violent bigotry, not sober critical thinking. The organization he was with likely also wasn't accepting of such radicalism. So yes, unlike yourself, who has never erred in opinion or statements, it is possible that other people actually can grow and mature (college is part of that process).

He could also still be a violent asshole.

I don't know. Neither do you. I admitted not knowing, which is okay. We can't know the minds of people we've never met.

 

[Arctish]

It was only a matter of time:

Pro-Israel Agitator Shouts 'Kill the Jews', Everyone Else Arrested

Northeastern University had around 100 peaceful protesters arrested on Saturday at its Boston campus’ pro-Palestine encampment, claiming that there had been reports of protesters using antisemitic slurs; but according to witnesses, the protester who spewed hate speech was a pro-Israel counter protester.

On Saturday morning, Northeastern Vice President for Communications Renata Nyul released a statement, announcing that the protest on Centennial Common would be cleared by campus police and local law enforcement. In the statement, she explained that the reason they were clearing the encampment was because of the presence of hate speech at the site.

 

[Axulus]

It was only a matter of time:

Pro-Israel Agitator Shouts 'Kill the Jews', Everyone Else Arrested

Northeastern University had around 100 peaceful protesters arrested on Saturday at its Boston campus’ pro-Palestine encampment, claiming that there had been reports of protesters using antisemitic slurs; but according to witnesses, the protester who spewed hate speech was a pro-Israel counter protester.

On Saturday morning, Northeastern Vice President for Communications Renata Nyul released a statement, announcing that the protest on Centennial Common would be cleared by campus police and local law enforcement. In the statement, she explained that the reason they were clearing the encampment was because of the presence of hate speech at the site.

This is effectively collective punishment. Isn't that anti-american and a violation of the constitution? If certain speech is banned (gag), then arrest the specific individuals engaging in the illegal speech, not the ones that happen to be in the same group together. I'm not guilty of your crimes just because we happen to be protesting over similar (not even always the same) issues.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The New York Times article:

Nearly 200 protesters were arrested on Saturday at Northeastern University, Arizona State University, Indiana University and Washington University in St. Louis, according to officials, as colleges across the country struggle to quell growing pro-Palestinian demonstrations and encampments on campus.

More than 700 protesters have been arrested on U.S. campuses since April 18, when Columbia University had the New York Police Department clear a protest encampment there. In several cases, most of those who were arrested have been released.

... nasty shit...

I agree with that label as applied to specific things he has said.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think some of the protesters don't really understand exactly what they are protesting, based on my reading of many articles regarding these protests. Some are very peaceful, while others are not. I protested the Viet Nam War, which we were directly involved in, leading to the death of about 58,000 of my generation, many who were against the war, but didn't want to serve prison time or leave the country. Anyway, I don't see this as the same. None of the protests I attended were violent, and we never took over any part of the town or college. Talk about police violence. I'm sure you all know about the 4 students that were shot and killed by the national guard at one protest.

I fully support peaceful protests. I don't support hate speech, painting the marble walls of a university, as some did at Emory, or refusing to leave an area when directed to by the college police. I also think it was wrong to try and block people from entering an event.

Too many Jewish students feel unsafe, even though many of those support the end of this crazy attack on the Palestinians. On the other hand, I read. that there are still over 50 per cent of those who are in Gaza, continue to support Hamas, while some are coming out against Hamas. It's as if people have forgotten that it was Hamas that started this madness. And, while that doesn't justify the amount of damage that Israel has done, it at least helps understand the reaction of a country led by a far right man who is very hard to reason with. It helps explain to some extent the reaction to the terrorists on Oct. 7th. Humans are irrational and it's obvious to me that we have irrational people on both sides. The whole thing is a big fucking mess and while I agree that the police have over reacted in some cases, there were plenty of protesters who did illegal things that required an arrest. The bail that set for those arrested at Emory, according to the AJC, was under 50 dollars in most cases.

Anyway, since I have so many free articles left to share, I'll link to some, if anyone is willing to read them and perhaps get a different perspective. I'm not happy about any of this and I don't uncondiotnally support either side. I just want peace. I wan the hostages released. As child of the 60s, it was all about Love, Peace and Happiness. As an older adult woman, I've given up on humans changing their irrational, destructive behavior.

I'll come back and post a few links to actual sources of news.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2024/04/28/jewish-students-campus-protests-israel-gaza/

Read the entire article. I think there is an additional link at the bottom of the quotation.

The protests outside her window at Columbia University were loud, and Dahlia Soussan lay awake all night, tossing in her dorm room bed, a little bit scared.
As a Jewish student, some of the chants felt threatening, like she was being targeted because she supports the existence of the state of Israel. But the next day, when more than 100 protesters were arrested, that was upsetting, too. She didn’t want students taken to jail or suspended from college. She, too, wants the bombing in Gaza to stop.

“Every value that I hold in my heart is in tension with another principle I hold deeply right now,” said Soussan, a junior at Barnard College, which is affiliated with Columbia.
For Jewish college students, this is a moment of intense and sometimes conflicting emotions as many college campuses erupt in loud protests against Israel’s conduct in the war and, in some cases, its existence — all while the deadly war in Gaza presses on and Israeli hostages remain in captivity.
It adds up to profound questions over what it means to be a young Jew in America in 2024. For some, the overriding feeling is one of fear and pain. Others have joined with the protesters, seeing the opposition to the war in Gaza as an opportunity to live out Jewish values taught growing up about justice and the value of human life. And many others are conflicted, seeing nuance when it feels like so many around them see black and white.
Skip to end of carousel

College protests over Gaza war​

Waves of antiwar protests are spreading across colleges campuses, with growing police arrests as graduation seasonapproaches. See the universities where protests are intensifying.

(Yana Paskova/For The Washington Post)

End of carousel
“A lot of students I talk with in the last few months are genuinely torn and confused but don’t feel they can ask their questions,” said Rabbi Jill Jacobs, a human rights advocate who helps train rabbinical students and others.
It’s been that way since Oct. 7, she said, when the war began with an attack on Israel by Hamas, the militant group that runs Gaza, killing about 1,200, according to Israeli estimates, and taking more than 250 hostage. After that, Israel launched a counterattack that has killed over 34,000 Gazans, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.
Jewish students are left pinballing between emotions: worry over Israel’s safety and the fate of the hostages, fear of rising antisemitism at home, empathy for Palestinians.
“They are horrified by what’s happening in Gaza and also by what happened on Oct. 7 and by antisemitism,” she said. They “don’t see enough models for how to hold it all.”

 

[Politesse]

I also think it was wrong to try and block people from entering an event.

Yes, whenever anyone gets in my way, I slam their head into the pavement and perform a citizen's arrest.

I protested the Viet Nam War, which we were directly involved in, leading to the death of about 58,000 of my generation, many who were against the war, but didn't want to serve prison time or leave the country. Anyway, I don't see this as the same. None of the protests I attended were violent, and we never took over any part of the town or college. Talk about price violence. I'm sure you all know about the 4 students that were shot and killed by the national guard at one protest.

You have a fuzzy memory if you don't remember the police making the exact same excuses in the 70s as they do now. "Reports of violence" that can't be substantiated, "terroristic threats", vandalism, obstruction of thruways, loitering... protesters were accused of all of the above then, too, sometimes accurately and sometimes not. If you support the arrest of these students, what you really ought to do is go turn yourself in for your own former acts of insurrection and consorting with terrorists. If these students deserve to be beaten in the street, then so did you when you protested our lawful war against the invading Viet Cong and their wicked allies. Did you know those people committed atrocities worse than anything that happened in October? By the logic that says anyone who protests the slaughter in Gaza is allying themselves with Hamas, you were likewise allying yourself with the cause of a far worse empire, undeniably guilty of perpetrating many horrors against the civilians of Vietnam and openly plotting the downfall of your own nation. Don't you feel guilty for that? That you stood for the Viet Cong in the streets of your own nation? You sound very judgmental about the students murdered and Kent State, but the killers were very clear at the time that among the crowd of students fleeing from them at the time of the shooting, several had "charged" at them "in a threatening manner". Almost all of the guardsmen reported seeing other guardsmen struck by thrown rocks. One even claimed that a sniper had fired at them first. Peaceful protest, indeed! Rocks and snipers are very violent.

As child of the 60s, it was all about Love, Peace and Happiness. As an older adult woman, I've given up on humans changing their irrational, destructive behavior.

Then our only hope is in the young.

 

[southernhybrid]

I also think it was wrong to try and block people from entering an event.

Yes, whenever anyone gets in my way, I slam their head into the pavement and perform a citizen's arrest. It's my right as a citizen not to be impeded, right?

I agree that t he police officer you are referring to over reacted when he slammed the head of the woman down. I saw it on the news. That has absolutely nothing to do with the content of my post. I was referring to those who tried to stop people from entering the annual White House Correspondents Dinner, or maybe you missed that. Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand my point or just pretending that every protester who was arrested was wrongly treated by the police? I think the campus police most likely could have handled this and I think Abbot sending out the National Guard to arrest students in Texas was wrong. But, don't we know by now that he's an asshole who hates democracy? We don't need a repeat of what happened during that Viet Nam protest.

You haven't addressed the primary issue, how Jewish students are feeling, sometimes being yelled at and made to feel frightened. That is wrong! Where do these protesters get their news from? Fucking Tie Tok! Seriously, one can be smart enough to see that there are problems on both sides, but I never said I supported police brutality of any kind, so your post is totally inappropriate in response to mine.

 

[Cognoscenti324]

What bothers me the most about Israel/Gaza are the steadfast opinions about the conditions in Israel/Gaza from people that 1) live thousands of miles from it 2) never been there. For a campus, I think there are opportunities to communicate what is happening, the issues with perception from afar, providing narratives to a story that really is two sided and no where near black and white.

This is much a people conflict as it is an information conflict. There is a lot that can be taught about this, and how to grow from it, instead of merely make useless gestures.

Yes because, no technology exists that can accurately inform people of things happening in the world that are far away that they have never been to....

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

None of the protests I attended were violent,

Okay, but some were.

and we never took over any part of the town or college.

Okay, but that did happen.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

As child of the 60s, it was all about Love, Peace and Happiness. As an older adult woman, I've given up on humans changing their irrational, destructive behavior.

Then our only hope is in the young.

To be very open, I think one of the problems with the young (and for that matter some of the old) is not understanding how to navigate this. For the young, it's easy to make the same mistakes of the past without realizing they are mistakes. For anyone, it's easy to get on one side of the issue and become tribal and polarized. These days our sources of information tend to keep us polarized as well. As such, I believe neither in the current leadership of Israel nor in the current leadership of this pro-Palestine movement. There is too much association with unilateral extremists and not enough lessons learned from the past. At least that is how it seems because there has been multiple instances of letting people in from the outside who end up being a bit too militant.

So, I think we need a movement with signs that read "Promote Peace," "Release the hostages and free Palestine" and "Free Palestine and release the hostages." It is very unfortunate but the activation energy to get moderates to protest without becoming polarized may require an order of magnitude more civilian deaths, i.e. 100,000 dead Palestinians.

Maybe I am being too cynical.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Montreal

Protesters at McGill encampment demand university divest from Israel | Globalnews.ca

Joining their U.S. campus counterparts, the McGill students say they want the institution to cut millions in financial ties with Israel in light of the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

globalnews.ca

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What bothers me the most about Israel/Gaza are the steadfast opinions about the conditions in Israel/Gaza from people that 1) live thousands of miles from it 2) never been there. For a campus, I think there are opportunities to communicate what is happening, the issues with perception from afar, providing narratives to a story that really is two sided and no where near black and white.

This is much a people conflict as it is an information conflict. There is a lot that can be taught about this, and how to grow from it, instead of merely make useless gestures.

Yes because, no technology exists that can accurately inform people of things happening in the world that are far away that they have never been to....

That is adorable! I know what it is like to live in Israel or Palestine because I read something on the Internet or saw a news story.

 

[ZiprHead]

Well the training center is still being built. Ironically, these protesters are also against the training center.

It's a green space called "the lungs of the city." Of course they don't want to lose that.

 

[southernhybrid]

Sorry, I didn't have time to come back here yesterday and while it's rare for me to applaud a conservative who also identifies as a serious Christian, I think DAVID FRENCH did an excellent job of explaining the problems on both sides with the protests. Please read as much of the link as you can, it's a long one. ( I have idea why his name keeps getting capitalized despite my not doing it, damn computer. )

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/28/...e_code=1.oE0.FbVs.f3SlAbV0ijb8&smid=url-share

I had my head in a law book when I heard the drums. That was the sound of the first campus protest I ever experienced. I’d come to Harvard Law School in the fall of 1991 as a graduate of a small, very conservative Christian college in Nashville. Many of my college classmates had passionate religious and political commitments, but street protest was utterly alien to the Christian culture of the school. We were rule followers, and public protest looked a bit too much like anarchy for our tastes.

But Harvard was different. The law school was every bit as progressive as my college was conservative, and protest was part of the fabric of student life, especially then. This is the era when a writer for GQ magazine, John Sedgwick, called the law school “Beirut on the Charles” because it was torn apart by disputes over race and sex. There were days when campus protests were festive, almost celebratory. There were other days when the campus was seething with rage and fury.

That first protest was in support of faculty diversity, and it was relatively benign. I walked outside and followed the sound of the drums. A group of roughly 100 protesters was marching in front of the law school library, and soon they were joined by an allied group of similar size from Harvard’s John F. Kennedy School of Government. I watched as they danced, sang and listened to speeches by student activists and sympathetic professors. That first protest had an angry edge, but it was also completely peaceful and endlessly fascinating to a kid from a small town in Kentucky who’d never seen a drum circle before.

But things soon got worse, much worse. Protests got more unruly, and student activists got more aggressive. The entire campus was in a state of conflict. In Sedgwick’s words, students were “waging holy war on one another.” Small groups of students occupied administrative offices, and angry activists shouted down their political opponents in class and often attempted to intimidate them outside class. I was shouted down repeatedly, and twice I received disturbing handwritten notes in my campus mailbox in response to my anti-abortion advocacy. My student peers told me to “go die.”

It’s been more than 30 years since that first campus protest, and over that time I’ve seen countless protests, I’ve defended countless protesters — and I’ve even been protested against at several schools. In the course of those cases and confrontations, I’ve learned that the issue of campus protest is remarkably complex and that campus culture is at least as important as law and policy in setting the boundaries of debate.

There is profound confusion on campus right now around the distinctions among free speech, civil disobedience and lawlessness. At the same time, some schools also seem confused about their fundamental academic mission. Does the university believe it should be neutral toward campus activism — protecting it as an exercise of the students’ constitutional rights and academic freedoms but not cooperating with student activists to advance shared goals — or does it incorporate activism as part of the educational process itself, including by coordinating with the protesters and encouraging their activism?

The simplest way of outlining the ideal university policy toward protest is to say that it should protect free speech, respect civil disobedience and uphold the rule of law. That means universities should protect the rights of students and faculty members on a viewpoint-neutral basis, and they should endeavor to make sure that every member of the campus community has the same access to campus facilities and resources.

That also means showing no favoritism among competing ideological groups in access to classrooms, in the imposition of campus penalties and in access to educational opportunities. All groups should have equal rights to engage in the full range of protected speech, including by engaging in rhetoric that’s hateful to express and painful to hear. Public chants like “Globalize the intifada” may be repugnant to many ears, but they’re clearly protected by the First Amendment at public universities and by policies protecting free speech and academic freedom at most private universities.

Civil disobedience is distinct from First Amendment-protected speech. It involves both breaking an unjust law and accepting the consequences. There is a long and honorable history of civil disobedience in the United States, but true civil disobedience ultimately honors and respects the rule of law. In a 1965 appearance on “Meet the Press,” the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. described the principle perfectly: “When one breaks the law that conscience tells him is unjust, he must do it openly, he must do it cheerfully, he must do it lovingly, he must do it civilly — not uncivilly — and he must do it with a willingness to accept the penalty.”

But what we’re seeing on a number of campuses isn’t free expression, nor is it civil disobedience. It’s outright lawlessness. No matter the frustration of campus activists or their desire to be heard, true civil disobedience shouldn’t violate the rights of others. Indefinitely occupying a quad violates the rights of other speakers to use the same space. Relentless, loud protest violates the rights of students to sleep or study in peace. And when protests become truly threatening or intimidating, they can violate the civil rights of other students, especially if those students are targeted on the basis of their race, sex, color or national origin.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

From that article, the protests are called "outright lawlessness." I reckon that is hyperbole that belies a balanced view that is claimed. Scientifically, what kind of evidence would we expect from so-called outright lawlessness? Across scores of campuses with hundreds of rage-filled people targeting scores of victims over more than a week? By now we would observe several murders across multiple campuses, hundreds of assaults, extreme property damage, bombings, ...

 

[Playball40]

A majority of Americans now favor a ceasefire.

That's kind of those polls that find that majority of Americans are in favor of this or that lofty goal without considering how to get there or any downsides.
What would "ceasefire" mean concretely? Hamas refuses a ceasefire without a long laundry list of demands (as if they were winning the war on the ground) that includes release of >1000 terrorists from Israeli prisons. Including many serving life sentences.
Any ceasefire with Hamas would last only as long as they don't decide to renege and attack Israel again. There was a ceasefire in effect on 10/6/2023 after all. What good did it do anybody?

But the agenda of encampments is going beyond that and requires a lot of time investment.

No kidding. The agenda of the encampments is extremist.

And what of the thousands of Palestinians that are being held in Israel? No charges. No trial. No real crime to speak of....just accusations. Do they deserve to either be tried (ya know, speedy) or released?