Columbia University is colluding with the far-right in its attack on students

[TomC]

Do you live under a rock?
Shit Tom, I know you remember the anti Muslim sentiment during the Iraq war, which killed over a million Muzzies according to some estimates. Western European countries have seen continuous anti Muslim demonstrations and acts of terror.
I don’t recall the USA giving Israel anything but $Billions, do you?

Dayum.
Why are we disagreeing about that, now?
I was on the streets when the USA attacked Iraq.

I'm talking about the here and now. Who is being accused of war crimes in thread?
Israel or Gaza?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Do you live under a rock?
Shit Tom, I know you remember the anti Muslim sentiment during the Iraq war, which killed over a million Muzzies according to some estimates. Western European countries have seen continuous anti Muslim demonstrations and acts of terror.
I don’t recall the USA giving Israel anything but $Billions, do you?

Dayum.
Why are we disagreeing about that, now?
I was on the streets when the USA attacked Iraq.

I'm talking about the here and now. Who is being accused of war crimes in thread?
Israel or Gaza?
Tom

Okay, point taken. This thread is about the backlash that Israel - or by proxy, the Jewish community - is suffering from their disproportionate response’s ongoing human toll. Justifiable backlash, or no?

I do not think for one second that killing ten for every one you kill is anything but a feel good in the short term venting of anger.
It serves to turn more Muslims into militants is all, and is on the verge of imperiling America’s financial support for their defense. So yeah, I think the backlash is a good thing, even if its emotional drivers are misguided.

 

[Copernicus]

There is plenty of outrage against Muslims.

Such as?
Can you give me an example of the outrage against Muslims?
Or any reason to believe that the outrage against Muslims comes anywhere close to the outrage against Jewish people?
Tom
ETA ~Outrage here in the USA. ~

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia or that people are not attacked or killed by strangers just because they happen to be Muslims? This statement here strikes me as an example of Islamophobia--someone blaming people for their behavior because they are Muslim:

Nobody much cares about war crimes committed by devout Muslims. That's just Muslims being Muslims.
Everyone knows that.

A statement like "That's just Jews being Jews" would rightfully be construed as antisemitic. Is not "Muslims being Muslims" an expression just a bad as "Jews being Jews"? I know that you were attributing that as an expression that you think others use to minimize atrocities committed by Muslims, but that is a total misrepresentation of what critics of Israel here have been saying.

 

[Elixir]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia or that people are not attacked or killed by strangers just because they happen to be Muslims?

In fairness, our own domestic terrorists seem just as comfortable shooting Others whether they’re Muslims or Jews, Blacks or Latinos.
It’s just Muslims (Iranian surrogates mostly) who reserve their hatred and ammunition for Jews. So maybe Tom has a point, and we should be … uh … what? Perfectly happy to see Bibi launch another genocidal campaign in Rafah?

 

[TomC]

This thread is about the backlash that Israel - or by proxy, the Jewish community - is suffering from their disproportionate response’s ongoing human toll. Justifiable backlash, or no?

What backlash? Israeli security is protecting Israel from terrorists, by whatever means necessary (or available). The backlash is people insisting that Zionists need to refrain from using Muslim methods of authoritarianism, such as their neighbors used for decades...

Why don't we discuss your word "justifiable".

And then, if time permits, "disproportionate".

En Garde
Tom

 

[TomC]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia

The ability of violent terrorist apologists to post things like this makes the conversation difficult.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Israeli security is protecting Israel from terrorists, by whatever means necessary (or available).

So they say. But they were warned of an attack and did nothing but give Hamas more money. Now they’re just spilling blood in anger.
When the next bunch of Israeli civilians are butchered by Iranian proxies, we can talk again about the effectiveness of Bibi’s “defense” strategies.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm talking about the here and now. Who is being accused of war crimes in thread?
Israel or Gaza?
Tom

I would say both. Nobody has been minimizing atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists, but you have been repeatedly framing critics of Israel's response to 10-7 as excusing those atrocities. For example, you just said this to me:

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia

The ability of violent terrorist apologists to post things like this makes the conversation difficult.
Tom

Who in this thread would you consider a "terrorist apologist"? Me? Elixir? Arctish? I don't see anyone here being a terrorist apologist, but you clearly imply that that is who you are trying to have a conversation with. Just because we criticize Netanyahu's horrific response to Oct. 7, that doesn't mean we've joined the cause of Hamas terrorists.

 

[Elixir]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia

The ability of violent terrorist apologists to post things like this makes the conversation difficult.
Tom

Answer the fucking question Tom.
And while you’re at it, is killiing 10x as many civilians an appropriate response?
Y/N

I think the conversation might be difficult for you because your position is untenable.

 

[Elixir]

I’m reminded of the fact that the USA killed at least 10x as many Japanese civilians in one day than the total American civilians killed by the Japanese military in the whole war. So I’m not ruling it out as appropriate simply based on the multiplier.

 

[TomC]

Israeli security is protecting Israel from terrorists, by whatever means necessary (or available).

So they say. But they were warned of an attack and did nothing but give Hamas more money. Now they’re just spilling blood in anger.
When the next bunch of Israeli civilians are butchered by Iranian proxies, we can talk again about the effectiveness of Bibi’s “defense” strategies.

Cynical as I am...
I think hard core Zionists like Netanyahu knew enough to stop October 7 before the previous summer.
But they didn't.
They gave Gazans enough rope to hang themselves, by launching the terrorist attack on October 7. Which they clearly did.

And Hamas lead Gazans did it. Gazans started a major battle with Israel, and the result is clear.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

WARNING: There is a thread for campus protests. This thread isn't it.

??

What in your opinion is is thread supposed to be about, if not Columbia University's collusion with the far right in its attack on students?

Yup, I screwed up. Another day in my life.

Sorry, but you've been acting despotic lately. I think that you're letting the power of running this forum go to your head. (kidding!)

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

PREPARED REMARKS: Sanders on the Nationwide Student Protests and the Ongoing Humanitarian Disaster in Gaza » Senator Bernie Sanders

WASHINGTON, May 2 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday night spoke on the floor of the U.S. Senate about the student protests taking place on college campuses across the country, and the ongoing, horrific humanitarian disaster in Gaza. Sanders’ remarks, as prepared for delivery, are below...

www.sanders.senate.gov

 

[Elixir]

PREPARED REMARKS: Sanders on the Nationwide Student Protests and the Ongoing Humanitarian Disaster in Gaza » Senator Bernie Sanders

WASHINGTON, May 2 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday night spoke on the floor of the U.S. Senate about the student protests taking place on college campuses across the country, and the ongoing, horrific humanitarian disaster in Gaza. Sanders’ remarks, as prepared for delivery, are below...

www.sanders.senate.gov

Worth a read, @TomC. Particularly:

“Netanyahu’s extremist government has killed 34,000 Palestinians and wounded more than 77,000 – seventy percent of whom are women and children.

And to protest that or to point that out is not antisemitic. It is simply factual.

It is not antisemitic to point out that Netanyahu’s government’s bombing has completely destroyed more than 221,000 housing units in Gaza, leaving more than one million people homeless – almost half the population. No, Mr. Netanyahu it is not antisemitic to point out what you have done in terms of the destruction of housing in Gaza.”

I think you forgot to answer my simple Y/N question: is that a reasonable course of action in response to Hamas’ terror raid?

 

[TomC]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia or that people are not attacked or killed by strangers just because they happen to be Muslims

Answer the fucking question Tom.

I think you forgot to answer my simple Y/N question: is that a reasonable course of action in response to Hamas’ terror raid?

Yep.
I think islamophobia is a real thing.

Also protecting Israel against Muslim violence is what IDF is expected to do.

How about we protect Gazans against Hamas? We could start by distinguishing between Hamas and the other Gazans.
How do you do that?

How do outsiders protect innocent civilians in Gaza from the violent terrorists who run the place?
How do you do that?

It's not a y/n question because I see the current situation as far too complex for y/n answers.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia or that people are not attacked or killed by strangers just because they happen to be Muslims

Answer the fucking question Tom.

I think you forgot to answer my simple Y/N question: is that a reasonable course of action in response to Hamas’ terror raid?

Yep.
I think islamophobia is a real thing.

Also protecting Israel against Muslim violence is what IDF is expected to do.

How about we protect Gazans against Hamas? We could start by distinguishing between Hamas and the other Gazans.
How do you do that?

How do outsiders protect innocent civilians in Gaza from the violent terrorists who run the place?
How do you do that?

It's not a y/n question because I see the current situation as far too complex for y/n answers.
Tom

You are right about the complexity. We cannot simply send in peacekeeping troops to stop the violence. They would get caught in the crossfire. Protecting noncombatant civilians in Gaza or Israel is not solely our responsibility. It is the responsibility of the community of nations. However, we are a huge factor in the violence, because we supply weapons being used in the violence, and we take the side of one party to the violence. We are not in control of that party, but we are in control of our own behavior. That is why there are protests at universities across the country. Israel is going to do what it wants to do. If it wants our help, then it needs to accept the strings that come with that help. The problem for many Americans is that we are giving the help without any strings.

 

[Politesse]

Are you saying that there is no such thing as Islamophobia or that people are not attacked or killed by strangers just because they happen to be Muslims

Answer the fucking question Tom.

I think you forgot to answer my simple Y/N question: is that a reasonable course of action in response to Hamas’ terror raid?

Yep.
I think islamophobia is a real thing.

Also protecting Israel against Muslim violence is what IDF is expected to do.

How about we protect Gazans against Hamas? We could start by distinguishing between Hamas and the other Gazans.
How do you do that?

How do outsiders protect innocent civilians in Gaza from the violent terrorists who run the place?
How do you do that?

It's not a y/n question because I see the current situation as far too complex for y/n answers.
Tom

You say it's complex, but Israel's solution - rush in and kill everyone who might be standing in the way of a terrorist, regardless of age, sex, or complicity - is all too simple. Giving them a blank check and a bottomless magazine regardless of what they do with it because it's too hard to figure out a better course of action is also too simple. Why are you endorsing a simple but abhorrent solution to a problem you know to be complex and intractable? Dropping a 2,000 pound bomb on the house of anyone that an AI says might be Hamas is not a nuanced response to a nuanced issue. It's totalitarian ideology washed down with the blood of 12,300 children, and many more innocents besides. Not all innocents are children, and you should know that also. You sing the praises of democracy, of secularism, of personal choice. But you want us to look the other way while Netanyahu takes that choice away from thousands before they even have a chance to make it. To punish collectively the sins of a "race" that no one got to choose whether to be assigned to, an assumed faith that they never got the opportunity to embrace or reject. You stand in opposition to the values you claim to hold. Yours not a complex political philosophy, its a contradictory and emotionally defined philosophy that ends in turning a blind eye to acts I think you know are wrong, that you would never endorse if its victims were people you knew rather than people you imagine to all be scary foreigners with a scary religion.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This one is funny

 

[DrZoidberg]

In other news, USA fought the Nazis for nothing. Well done America and it's fight for freedom

The US fought the Nazis because they tried to take over Europe (...after Pearl Harbor was bombed). The US rejected entry to many Jewish refugees in the run up to WWII. The US and Israel weren't much in the way of allies early on either.

Currently, we have people in this very thread saying the death of 40,000 Gazans to killed a minority of Hamas and infrastructure is "doing pretty well". As a reminder, 1,200 or so were slaughtered by Hamas on October 7th. Hundreds taken hostages. A huge sum, but well below a magnitude lower than the Gazan losses.

I'm curious what an acceptable death toll in Gaza would be for the elimination of Hamas... ignoring the irony of Hamas growing in its destruction.

Look, the entire Arab world is conspiring to not help the Palestinians, but instead exploit their situation in order to hurt Israel. How about we place blame where it belongs? Israel is only defending itself. It's the only Jewish country on the entire planet.

Israel is not trying to murder Palestinians. Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way. Hammas is guilty of that.

I think antisemitism is necessary to see Hammas as the victims here. Hammas needs to be destroyed. And if the Palestinians aren't willing to help doing that.. well... that's unfortunate. then this conflict will drag on and more Palestinian civlians will die

 

[Arctish]

In other news, USA fought the Nazis for nothing. Well done America and it's fight for freedom

The US fought the Nazis because they tried to take over Europe (...after Pearl Harbor was bombed). The US rejected entry to many Jewish refugees in the run up to WWII. The US and Israel weren't much in the way of allies early on either.

Currently, we have people in this very thread saying the death of 40,000 Gazans to killed a minority of Hamas and infrastructure is "doing pretty well". As a reminder, 1,200 or so were slaughtered by Hamas on October 7th. Hundreds taken hostages. A huge sum, but well below a magnitude lower than the Gazan losses.

I'm curious what an acceptable death toll in Gaza would be for the elimination of Hamas... ignoring the irony of Hamas growing in its destruction.

Look, the entire Arab world is conspiring to not help the Palestinians, but instead exploit their situation in order to hurt Israel. How about we place blame where it belongs? Israel is only defending itself. It's the only Jewish country on the entire planet.

Yes, how about we place the blame where it belongs?

Egypt is not where it belongs. The Egyptians did not force Palestinians out of their communities in and around Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Ashkelon to become homeless refugees in Gaza. Neither did Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or the rest of the 'Arab world'.

It was Israel's Zionist founders and their successors who did that.

During the 1947–1949 Palestine war around 400 Palestinian Arab towns and villages were forcibly depopulated, with a majority being destroyed and left uninhabitable.[1][2] Today these locations are all in Israel; many of the locations were repopulated by Jewish immigrants, with their place names replaced with Hebrew place names.

Zionists refused to allow Palestinians to return to their former farms, businesses, homes, and communities because they were, and are, racist and religiously bigoted as fuck. They created a State for Jews, and Jews alone. They don't give a shit how many generations of Palestinians lived in those towns. They wanted the non-Jews gone, and they did their best to make it so.

Refuse to acknowledge that simple truth all you want, it's still the truth. The 'Arab world' does not bear responsibility for the conditions in Gaza. The country that controls the borders, the water and electrical grid, the importation of food, medicine, building materials, school books, etc. , the movements of people into and out of Gaza, and where the natural gas from Gazan deposits is sent, is responsible.

Israel is not trying to murder Palestinians.

Israel as a whole, no. Certain Israelis, though? It appears that some of them are. I'd be willing to bet every penny in my bank account that the sniper who shot the grandma holding the hand of a 5-year old waving a white flag was trying to murder her. Possibly the guys who shot the escaping hostages and the ones who killed the paramedics from Ramallah who had permission to rescue that 4 year old girl trapped in a car with her dead relatives.

Hammas is doing their best to put Palestinian civilians in harms way. Hammas is guilty of that.

I think antisemitism is necessary to see Hammas as the victims here. Hammas needs to be destroyed. And if the Palestinians aren't willing to help doing that.. well... that's unfortunate. then this conflict will drag on and more Palestinian civlians will die

I think anti-Semitism is necessary to hand wave away the deaths of tens of thousands of Semitic people in Gaza, most of them children and their non-combatant mothers. If not active anti-Semitism, at least it's indifferent-to-the-suffering-of-Semitic-people passive form.