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Comic book movie news & discussion

New Venom trailer out:



I'm still not convinced we needed a Venom movie, but I must admit the trailer looks pretty slick.

What I really want is for that Miles Morales movie to come out, and hopefully that will lead to Spider-Gwen.
 


Why did the Defenders suck? Because of the flaws baked into Iron Fist.

Iron Fist lacked a relevant social theme (they did talk about the 1%, but badly), the hero lacked any real, personal connection to the Hand (other than through Colleen). These flaws carried over into Defenders, where Sigourney Weaver's character made the Hand seem weak and less threatening bas antagonists.
 


Summary of Grace's review for people who can't watch the video:
  • Beware of spoilers. There are a lot of them in this movie and people may have trouble keeping a lid on the spoilers. It's an especially big deal not just because there are a lot of spoilers going on, but because there's not much else to the movie other than spoilers and spectacle.
  • More of an experience than a film.
  • I never heard so many gasps at a press screening (see spoiler warning above).
  • As with The Last Jedi, every fan theory you heard is wrong (hopefully we won't see the same nerd rage over that).
  • Thanos gets actual character development.
  • The romances didn't get enough setup, so they don't feel like emotional payoffs.
  • Feels like a Star Wars movie, specifically Empire Strikes Back (although ESB is the better movie).
  • This was clearly made before Marvel found out what a smash hit Black Panther was going to be because the Black Panther characters (as well as those members of the Avengers now associated with Wakanda) don't get much screen time.
  • Only one end credits scene and it's at the very very end.
 
Alright. This is a more in-depth discussion about Avengers: Infinity War that probably would have been out of place in the general movie thread.

First, let's talk about Women in Refrigerators.

The irony here is that the trope was first identified with regard to comic book superheroes, although the trope certainly exists in other genres. Sometimes, a female character is raped, tortured, killed, etc. just to provide motivation for a male character, to advance a plot point for a male character, or to explain something to the audience about a male character.

While it's certainly possible to do horrible things to male characters for trivial storytelling reasons, it is more common with female characters (see "other genres" link above), and this is an indication of how little our society values women. The prevalence of the trope is an indicator of what's wrong with society.



Spoilers

It is therefore unfortunate that Gamora got "fridged" in Avengers: Infinity War. A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret.

Grace Randolph of Beyond the Trailer was the first to point this out (or at least the only one I saw who mentioned this) in her spoiler review of the movie.

Aside: I'm not sure if her comment about the "black guy dies first" trope applies here since Heimdal is surrounded by white corpses when he is killed. It sort of applies, but is not as egregious as what happened to Gamora.

Granted, it's entirely possible that Gamora's death is not permanent. After all, more than half of the heroes in the Marvel universe were killed off in the movie, so we have to assume that some or all of those heroes are going to be brought back somehow in a future movie. But it's still an example of someone getting "fridged," and it's unfortunate given that Feige and the other Marvel higher ups running the MCU are usually very knowledgeable about obscure comic book lore and comic book tropes, and they should have been a little more on the ball about this one.

So anyway, what do you think about the fridging of Gamora?

Does Marvel get away with it because so many characters died in this movie and many characters died for relatively trivial narrative reasons? Or should Marvel have handled this one differently? Am I wrong to dismiss the "black guy dies first" trope given that Heimdal was the first on-screen death?

 
In Avengers: Infinity War, two events happened which make possible future stories that comic book nerds might look forward to:


Xandar attacked by Thanos
This was not depicted on screen, but mentioned in dialog. Thanos attacked Xandar to get whichever infinity stone they were protecting. Presumably he killed half of the population of the capital planet of the Xandarian empire. This means things are now clear story-wise to introduce Nova to the MCU.

T'Challa vaporized by Thanos' finger snap
When the infamous snap happened, most of the Marvel heroes disappeared in a puff of smoke, including T'Challa. This could set up the story in which Shuri sat on the throne and became Black Panther for a time, although personally, I hope they delay telling that story until the FOX merger happens and Dr. Doom is introduced to the MCU.

 
Underseer said:


Why did the Defenders suck? Because of the flaws baked into Iron Fist.

Iron Fist lacked a relevant social theme (they did talk about the 1%, but badly), the hero lacked any real, personal connection to the Hand (other than through Colleen). These flaws carried over into Defenders, where Sigourney Weaver's character made the Hand seem weak and less threatening bas antagonists.
Click to expand...

I thought the major problems was that the big big baddie, who wasn't Weaver, causes a major shake that rattles NYC. This implies a major player is added, a player that makes the sacrifices put forth by Weaver worth it. But in the end, this major player is just another fighter. The Hand had many fighters, really good ones. They didn't need another fighter, they needed something that'd be a substantial game changer. And beyond the Brooklyn Shake, nothing else comes from it. The remainder of The Hand, are supposed to be super super badasses, but it never comes that. Colleen is able to fight one, another gets captured, one gets unexpected poked in the back, and the last two seem to make it, but seem to have abilities that they don't use too well. Their ultimate defeat seems like the Raptors Game One loss to the Cavs... entirely their own fault.

Danny Rand is a weak character and that sticks out in Episode One of Defenders. He is a supposed bad ass, but as others in the show point out, just a child looking for mommy and daddy. Is this intentional? All super heros need some weakness. Daredevil is blind, Jessica Jones is haunted, and Luke Cage can't drive without getting pulled over by the cops. So Danny Rand is a weapon that is trying to find his place and his hesitance to know what it is, becomes his weakness.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Underseer said:


Why did the Defenders suck? Because of the flaws baked into Iron Fist.

Iron Fist lacked a relevant social theme (they did talk about the 1%, but badly), the hero lacked any real, personal connection to the Hand (other than through Colleen). These flaws carried over into Defenders, where Sigourney Weaver's character made the Hand seem weak and less threatening bas antagonists.
Click to expand...

I thought the major problems was that the big big baddie, who wasn't Weaver, causes a major shake that rattles NYC. This implies a major player is added, a player that makes the sacrifices put forth by Weaver worth it. But in the end, this major player is just another fighter. The Hand had many fighters, really good ones. They didn't need another fighter, they needed something that'd be a substantial game changer. And beyond the Brooklyn Shake, nothing else comes from it. The remainder of The Hand, are supposed to be super super badasses, but it never comes that. Colleen is able to fight one, another gets captured, one gets unexpected poked in the back, and the last two seem to make it, but seem to have abilities that they don't use too well. Their ultimate defeat seems like the Raptors Game One loss to the Cavs... entirely their own fault.

Danny Rand is a weak character and that sticks out in Episode One of Defenders. He is a supposed bad ass, but as others in the show point out, just a child looking for mommy and daddy. Is this intentional? All super heros need some weakness. Daredevil is blind, Jessica Jones is haunted, and Luke Cage can't drive without getting pulled over by the cops. So Danny Rand is a weapon that is trying to find his place and his hesitance to know what it is, becomes his weakness.
Click to expand...


Wait so Luke Cage's "weakness" is that he's black? :glare:

Anyway, I think despite its flaws Iron Fist was still better than the Defenders. And Iron Fist had the best trailer so far. I wish they would take the trailer, forget everything else, and make that into a 10-episode run. That would be cool.
 
Underseer said:
Alright. This is a more in-depth discussion about Avengers: Infinity War that probably would have been out of place in the general movie thread.

First, let's talk about Women in Refrigerators.

The irony here is that the trope was first identified with regard to comic book superheroes, although the trope certainly exists in other genres. Sometimes, a female character is raped, tortured, killed, etc. just to provide motivation for a male character, to advance a plot point for a male character, or to explain something to the audience about a male character.

While it's certainly possible to do horrible things to male characters for trivial storytelling reasons, it is more common with female characters (see "other genres" link above), and this is an indication of how little our society values women. The prevalence of the trope is an indicator of what's wrong with society.



Spoilers

It is therefore unfortunate that Gamora got "fridged" in Avengers: Infinity War. A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret.

Grace Randolph of Beyond the Trailer was the first to point this out (or at least the only one I saw who mentioned this) in her spoiler review of the movie.

Aside: I'm not sure if her comment about the "black guy dies first" trope applies here since Heimdal is surrounded by white corpses when he is killed. It sort of applies, but is not as egregious as what happened to Gamora.

Granted, it's entirely possible that Gamora's death is not permanent. After all, more than half of the heroes in the Marvel universe were killed off in the movie, so we have to assume that some or all of those heroes are going to be brought back somehow in a future movie. But it's still an example of someone getting "fridged," and it's unfortunate given that Feige and the other Marvel higher ups running the MCU are usually very knowledgeable about obscure comic book lore and comic book tropes, and they should have been a little more on the ball about this one.

So anyway, what do you think about the fridging of Gamora?

Does Marvel get away with it because so many characters died in this movie and many characters died for relatively trivial narrative reasons? Or should Marvel have handled this one differently? Am I wrong to dismiss the "black guy dies first" trope given that Heimdal was the first on-screen death?

Click to expand...

With regard to the mentioned "fridging":

I don't agree with Gamoras plight in the movie as being there "just to provide motivation for a male character". She isn't captured and eventually killed so that Star-Lord and the Guardians have motivation to go after Thanos. They already have that motivation, as finding and killing Thanos is the entire purpose of Drax's existence at that point, and they had already picked up Thor, who provides them with additional incentive to track down the Mad Titan. I do agree that she is killed off to show that Thanos is capable of love and regret, but I don't think that is what the "women in refrigerators" trope references. Gamora was already established as a strong female character, possibly the most feared assassin in the galaxy, more than able to hold her own against the various threats the Guardians have faced, not to mention against the Guardians themselves. Her identity was never tied to the love interest with Star-Lord, so I don't think she fits the trope.

When it comes to showing Thanos' ability to love, there were few options available. In the comics, they show it through his love for Lady Death, but to do that in the movies, they have to introduce another major character with all her attendants in a movie that is already overloaded with major characters. Once you step back from going that route, you have to look at what has already been established for the Thanos in the MCU. He has two adopted daughters, Gamora and Nebula, and he clearly favors Gamora, so if he needs to make a sacrifice to show he is capable of love, killing Gamora is the most relatable way to do that. It also gives a big kick in the gut to the audience, because her character is so well liked. Much of that has to do with the strong female character she represents. It is probably the most emotional scene in the entire movie, none of the other deaths play out with the same emotional depth, and most happen so quickly, one after the other, that you don't have time to pine for the loss of those characters. If any scene in the movie is going to cause tears from the audience, this is the one, and that is why it is there.

Honestly, when I first saw the "women in refrigerators" link, I thought you were going to mention Nebula in connection with it, as she is captured and tortured by Thanos in order to obtain information from Gamora. Except for Gamora being her adopted sister, rather than a male love interest, I think that part of the movie fits the bill a bit closer, even though it is an homage to the torture of Nebula at the hands of Thanos in the Infinity Gauntlet comics. And, if you know how that ended in the comics, what happened with Nebula in that case does not fit the trope either.

You can also point to the flipping of this trope in the movie, or at least a very similar trope (damsel in distress), where Vision's plight provides motivation for Scarlet Witch. He becomes the damsel in distress, and a Scarlet Witch tries to be his white knight.

 
Found an interesting comment from Joe Russo that obliquely connects to the "fridging":

Joe Russo has confirmed a fan theory that Gamora is not actually dead, but is rather trapped in the soul stone:

One student asked about that young Gamora scene in the end of the film.

"Yeah it’s implied [that] it’s the Soul Stone," Russo replied. "It’s all orange around, then he’s inside the Soul Stone with the amount of power that it took to snap his fingers- he has this out of body experience with Thanos. When he goes inside the Soul stone he has this kind of conversation with the younger version of his Gamora."

The same student asked the director for clarification. Is Gamora in the Soul Stone?

"She in fact is, yes," Russo confirmed. "It was an attempt on our part - because we don’t like two dimensional roles or three dimensional villains every villain is a hero in their own story and as insane and psychotic and brutal and violent as Thanos is he’s a more complex villain if you go on a journey with him emotionally. He does care for things and it is complicated for him to execute his plan and it cost him something. He said at the end that it cost him everything and that it was the only thing he loved which was Gamora which is why we put him back with her at the end. I just want to reiterate with the audience that he does feel true emotion even though he is a monster."
Click to expand...

'Avengers: Infinity War' Director Confirms Soul Stone Fan Theory

This also confirms that giving Star-Lord motivation to go after Thanos was not the reason Gamora supposedly died, but rather that it was done to show he is capable of love.

Further, this basically sets Gamora up for at least partially reprising the role Adam Warlock played in the Infinity Gauntlet comics. He was trapped in the soul stone at the outset of that series, and escaped the soul stone after finding out that Thanos used the gauntlet to kill half of the Universe.

 
KeepTalking said:
Underseer said:
Alright. This is a more in-depth discussion about Avengers: Infinity War that probably would have been out of place in the general movie thread.

First, let's talk about Women in Refrigerators.

The irony here is that the trope was first identified with regard to comic book superheroes, although the trope certainly exists in other genres. Sometimes, a female character is raped, tortured, killed, etc. just to provide motivation for a male character, to advance a plot point for a male character, or to explain something to the audience about a male character.

While it's certainly possible to do horrible things to male characters for trivial storytelling reasons, it is more common with female characters (see "other genres" link above), and this is an indication of how little our society values women. The prevalence of the trope is an indicator of what's wrong with society.



Spoilers

It is therefore unfortunate that Gamora got "fridged" in Avengers: Infinity War. A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret.

Grace Randolph of Beyond the Trailer was the first to point this out (or at least the only one I saw who mentioned this) in her spoiler review of the movie.

Aside: I'm not sure if her comment about the "black guy dies first" trope applies here since Heimdal is surrounded by white corpses when he is killed. It sort of applies, but is not as egregious as what happened to Gamora.

Granted, it's entirely possible that Gamora's death is not permanent. After all, more than half of the heroes in the Marvel universe were killed off in the movie, so we have to assume that some or all of those heroes are going to be brought back somehow in a future movie. But it's still an example of someone getting "fridged," and it's unfortunate given that Feige and the other Marvel higher ups running the MCU are usually very knowledgeable about obscure comic book lore and comic book tropes, and they should have been a little more on the ball about this one.

So anyway, what do you think about the fridging of Gamora?

Does Marvel get away with it because so many characters died in this movie and many characters died for relatively trivial narrative reasons? Or should Marvel have handled this one differently? Am I wrong to dismiss the "black guy dies first" trope given that Heimdal was the first on-screen death?

Click to expand...

With regard to the mentioned "fridging":

I don't agree with Gamoras plight in the movie as being there "just to provide motivation for a male character". She isn't captured and eventually killed so that Star-Lord and the Guardians have motivation to go after Thanos. They already have that motivation, as finding and killing Thanos is the entire purpose of Drax's existence at that point, and they had already picked up Thor, who provides them with additional incentive to track down the Mad Titan. I do agree that she is killed off to show that Thanos is capable of love and regret, but I don't think that is what the "women in refrigerators" trope references. Gamora was already established as a strong female character, possibly the most feared assassin in the galaxy, more than able to hold her own against the various threats the Guardians have faced, not to mention against the Guardians themselves. Her identity was never tied to the love interest with Star-Lord, so I don't think she fits the trope.

When it comes to showing Thanos' ability to love, there were few options available. In the comics, they show it through his love for Lady Death, but to do that in the movies, they have to introduce another major character with all her attendants in a movie that is already overloaded with major characters. Once you step back from going that route, you have to look at what has already been established for the Thanos in the MCU. He has two adopted daughters, Gamora and Nebula, and he clearly favors Gamora, so if he needs to make a sacrifice to show he is capable of love, killing Gamora is the most relatable way to do that. It also gives a big kick in the gut to the audience, because her character is so well liked. Much of that has to do with the strong female character she represents. It is probably the most emotional scene in the entire movie, none of the other deaths play out with the same emotional depth, and most happen so quickly, one after the other, that you don't have time to pine for the loss of those characters. If any scene in the movie is going to cause tears from the audience, this is the one, and that is why it is there.

Honestly, when I first saw the "women in refrigerators" link, I thought you were going to mention Nebula in connection with it, as she is captured and tortured by Thanos in order to obtain information from Gamora. Except for Gamora being her adopted sister, rather than a male love interest, I think that part of the movie fits the bill a bit closer, even though it is an homage to the torture of Nebula at the hands of Thanos in the Infinity Gauntlet comics. And, if you know how that ended in the comics, what happened with Nebula in that case does not fit the trope either.

You can also point to the flipping of this trope in the movie, or at least a very similar trope (damsel in distress), where Vision's plight provides motivation for Scarlet Witch. He becomes the damsel in distress, and a Scarlet Witch tries to be his white knight.

Click to expand...


She wasn't killed to advance the story for the Guardians, she was killed to advance the story for Thanos.

You forget that Thanos was technically the protagonist. That is one of the best things about the movie, if you ask me. It's one thing to end Act 2 with a victorious villain, but making the villain the protagonist for Act 2 as a great decision, and one that helps Marvel deal with their traditional "villain problem."

 
Underseer said:
Alright. This is a more in-depth discussion about Avengers: Infinity War that probably would have been out of place in the general movie thread.

First, let's talk about Women in Refrigerators.

The irony here is that the trope was first identified with regard to comic book superheroes, although the trope certainly exists in other genres. Sometimes, a female character is raped, tortured, killed, etc. just to provide motivation for a male character, to advance a plot point for a male character, or to explain something to the audience about a male character.

While it's certainly possible to do horrible things to male characters for trivial storytelling reasons, it is more common with female characters (see "other genres" link above), and this is an indication of how little our society values women. The prevalence of the trope is an indicator of what's wrong with society.



Spoilers

It is therefore unfortunate that Gamora got "fridged" in Avengers: Infinity War. A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret.

Grace Randolph of Beyond the Trailer was the first to point this out (or at least the only one I saw who mentioned this) in her spoiler review of the movie.

Aside: I'm not sure if her comment about the "black guy dies first" trope applies here since Heimdal is surrounded by white corpses when he is killed. It sort of applies, but is not as egregious as what happened to Gamora.

Granted, it's entirely possible that Gamora's death is not permanent. After all, more than half of the heroes in the Marvel universe were killed off in the movie, so we have to assume that some or all of those heroes are going to be brought back somehow in a future movie. But it's still an example of someone getting "fridged," and it's unfortunate given that Feige and the other Marvel higher ups running the MCU are usually very knowledgeable about obscure comic book lore and comic book tropes, and they should have been a little more on the ball about this one.

So anyway, what do you think about the fridging of Gamora?

Does Marvel get away with it because so many characters died in this movie and many characters died for relatively trivial narrative reasons? Or should Marvel have handled this one differently? Am I wrong to dismiss the "black guy dies first" trope given that Heimdal was the first on-screen death?

Click to expand...
Seriously, the story is half told and people want to complain about this? Jebus, people need to learn about how to tell a narrative.

Gamora is "killed" because of Thanos' desire for the Soul Stone (speaking of which gives me ideas as to the resolution of all of this, not knowing any of the canon). It is Thanos relationship to Gamora that is relevant, not Starlord. It is Starlord's relationship to Gamora that is used as a plot device for him to mess up the only moment they have managed to subdue Thanos.

And this can become a sort of real tempest (Gamora) in a tea cup (Soul Stone). Of all the characters that are x'd out at the time, Gamora is the only one that has a relatively easy way back to life as she is the only one with an essence that physically remains.

 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Underseer said:
Alright. This is a more in-depth discussion about Avengers: Infinity War that probably would have been out of place in the general movie thread.

First, let's talk about Women in Refrigerators.

The irony here is that the trope was first identified with regard to comic book superheroes, although the trope certainly exists in other genres. Sometimes, a female character is raped, tortured, killed, etc. just to provide motivation for a male character, to advance a plot point for a male character, or to explain something to the audience about a male character.

While it's certainly possible to do horrible things to male characters for trivial storytelling reasons, it is more common with female characters (see "other genres" link above), and this is an indication of how little our society values women. The prevalence of the trope is an indicator of what's wrong with society.



Spoilers

It is therefore unfortunate that Gamora got "fridged" in Avengers: Infinity War. A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret.

Grace Randolph of Beyond the Trailer was the first to point this out (or at least the only one I saw who mentioned this) in her spoiler review of the movie.

Aside: I'm not sure if her comment about the "black guy dies first" trope applies here since Heimdal is surrounded by white corpses when he is killed. It sort of applies, but is not as egregious as what happened to Gamora.

Granted, it's entirely possible that Gamora's death is not permanent. After all, more than half of the heroes in the Marvel universe were killed off in the movie, so we have to assume that some or all of those heroes are going to be brought back somehow in a future movie. But it's still an example of someone getting "fridged," and it's unfortunate given that Feige and the other Marvel higher ups running the MCU are usually very knowledgeable about obscure comic book lore and comic book tropes, and they should have been a little more on the ball about this one.

So anyway, what do you think about the fridging of Gamora?

Does Marvel get away with it because so many characters died in this movie and many characters died for relatively trivial narrative reasons? Or should Marvel have handled this one differently? Am I wrong to dismiss the "black guy dies first" trope given that Heimdal was the first on-screen death?

Click to expand...
Seriously, the story is half told and people want to complain about this? Jebus, people need to learn about how to tell a narrative.

Gamora is "killed" because of Thanos' desire for the Soul Stone (speaking of which gives me ideas as to the resolution of all of this, not knowing any of the canon). It is Thanos relationship to Gamora that is relevant, not Starlord. It is Starlord's relationship to Gamora that is used as a plot device for him to mess up the only moment they have managed to subdue Thanos.

And this can become a sort of real tempest (Gamora) in a tea cup (Soul Stone). Of all the characters that are x'd out at the time, Gamora is the only one that has a relatively easy way back to life as she is the only one with an essence that physically remains.

Click to expand...

Yes, I assumed everyone understood that.


When I said Gamora was killed to advance a story point for a male character, I was talking about Thanos, not Starlord.

Why is everyone confused about this? I specifically said Thanos rather than Starlord in the original post. "A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret." I'm not sure why everyone assumed I was talking about Starlord.

 
Underseer said:
Yes, I assumed everyone understood that.


When I said Gamora was killed to advance a story point for a male character, I was talking about Thanos, not Starlord.

Why is everyone confused about this? I specifically said Thanos rather than Starlord in the original post. "A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret." I'm not sure why everyone assumed I was talking about Starlord.

Click to expand...
Yeah, but...

It was about Thanos, not Starlord. :D

 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Underseer said:
Yes, I assumed everyone understood that.


When I said Gamora was killed to advance a story point for a male character, I was talking about Thanos, not Starlord.

Why is everyone confused about this? I specifically said Thanos rather than Starlord in the original post. "A beloved member of the Guardians was killed off just to add depth to Thanos and let us know that he is capable of love and regret." I'm not sure why everyone assumed I was talking about Starlord.

Click to expand...
Yeah, but...

It was about Thanos, not Starlord. :D

Click to expand...

Uh, thank you for letting me know that. I never knew.
 
What I like about the DCEU

I'm a Marvel fan.

I absolutely hated Batman vs Superman. Not because I automatically hate anything DC does (like some DC fans seem to think), but because I like DC content (I'm a Marvel fan because I like Marvel better, not because I hate DC) and I want DC to force Marvel to compete. They're, uh, not doing that. At all.

So now Zach Snyder has been pushed out. Joss Whedon has already been pushed out shortly after he got there. Warner Brothers has a new Japanese American producer (Walter Hamada) who they hope will be their answer to Kevin Feige. I wish them the best of luck, not because I'm also Japanese-American and I think that automatically makes people's work better, but because I just want to enjoy good DC movies.

Anyway, there's lots of talk about reboot. A lot of people are saying that the entire DCEU should be jettisoned and they should just start all over. Since the DC comic book editorial staff has reboot-itis, there are tons of DC stories they could use to effect a soft or hard reboot of the DCEU, and word is they're going to do a Flashpoint story to accomplish this.

So now is the time to talk about all the stuff I wish they would keep.

Wonder Woman
This doesn't have to be mentioned, does it? Even a lot of those woman-hating MRA man-children admit that Wonder Woman is the best thing in the post-Nolan DC cinematic universe. It's not just good for a post-Nolan DC movie, I think it genuinely deserves to be compared to the original 1977 Superman movie that Patty Jenkins used as an inspiration (and borrowed from liberally).

The No Man's Land sequence (including the liberation of that town immediately after) is the most emotionally-moving action sequences in any comic book movie ever.

Superman and Flash
One of my big beefs with the post-Nolan DCEU is that I think they got the Superman character really wrong.

However, the interactions between characters are almost as important as getting the characters right. Pretty much every single interaction between Superman and the Flash is exactly what I could have hoped for.

Jason Momoa
I don't think they have the character of Aquaman quite right yet, but for the love of Poseidon please keep Jason Momoa. The writing and directing and interpretation of the character still needs work, but I'm already at the point that I can't imagine anyone else playing Aquaman.

Cyborg and his father Silas
I think the Cyborg character still needs work. As with Aquaman, I love the actor, but I'm not sure about this interpretation of the character. Part of the problem is that Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell does the "I doubt my own humanity" straight tragedy thing so much better than comic book Cyborg ever did. That's why I prefer version from the Teen Titans cartoon. People forget that he still had the "I doubt my own humanity" thing going on, but that version of the character covered up his pain with a thin veneer of humor and bravado that actually made the tragedy more poignant whenever he let his guard down. I think this is the angle that avoids comparisons with Kusanagi.

Anyway, remember what I said above about interactions? The same applies here. I not only love the casting of Cyborg, but also his father, and every interaction between the two rubbed me the right way. Please keep that. All of that.

Batfleck
Originally, I defended the killing business, but now I've come around. That violates one of the most interesting things about the character: he has allowed vengeance to consume his life, but he won't let vengeance have that last inch of him. He won't kill. Batman can't kill.

But I am still one of the few who actually likes Affleck's performance as Batman. Please change the writing and directing, (although honestly those only need minor tweaks) but I would like to keep the actor.

Leto's Joker
I'm probably one of the only people who actually likes Leto's look and performance. No, it wasn't like Heath Leger's version, but if it was too much like Leger, I would have had a problem with that.

I just don't get some of the complaints about his look. One of the most sinister Joker stories in the comic books was one in which he wore shorts, a tacky Hawaiian shirt, and a big goofy tourist hat most of the time. Leto had to come up with something that was a strong departure from previous movie incarnations, but still crazy and scary. I thought he did that.

Fishburn's Perry White
Do I even need to say anything? Print media is failing and this is a version of Perry desperate to save a dying newspaper. Fishburn nailed it.

Simmons' commissioner Gordon
On the screen very little and I loved every second.


Anyway, anyone else wanna talk about what you like about the DCEU? Or do you want to yell at me about what I liked?

For the most part I like the cast and the actors' performances, I'm just pissed about the writers and directors who don't seem to understand how some of these characters are supposed to be and what fans find appealing about them. Batman is supposed to be dark and gritty because he represents people's fears about the rise of organized crime during prohibition. Superman should not be dark and gritty. Ever. He represents the depression era hopes that government could be refashioned to help the little guy instead of just rich industrialists and bankers. He's supposed to be about hope, dammit. Making him an immigrant just makes the depression-era hope thing even better.

They did figure out that Wonder Woman is supposed to be about female empowerment and compassion, but holy crap they got so much about those characters wrong. Not everything and everyone has to be turned into fucking Batman! (That includes Green Arrow by the way, just in case any fucknozzles from CW are reading this.)
 
What I don't like the DCEU and DC in general is how they have their iconic characters stuck in a mold. For example, your contention that Superman is "supposed to" represent depression era hopes. Nonsense. That was almost 80 years ago, it's time to move on. Personally I like Superman more as an anomaly, a god-like being who can do pretty much whatever he wants, only limited by his human upbringing and morality. And more importantly, he's just way too powerful to meaningfully be part of a team-up. Justice League had Supes depowered to the point that he was basically depicted as about as strong and fast as Aquaman, which just doesn't make sense. And to counter Superman, the villains always have to be ridiculous CGI monsters too. Personally I thought the cybertronians in Man of Steel were much better adversaries for him than Doomsday or Steppenwolf, because they weren't just bulkier monsters but something he could've been.

Another thing is, that the iconic and pre-conceived ideas of what the characters are supposed to be is detrimental to character development. I liked the fact that Batfleck was an older, disillusioned batman who basically just killed people now, because it allowed him to improve and become better (though they didn't really go very far with this).
 
Jayjay said:
What I don't like the DCEU and DC in general is how they have their iconic characters stuck in a mold. For example, your contention that Superman is "supposed to" represent depression era hopes. Nonsense. That was almost 80 years ago, it's time to move on. Personally I like Superman more as an anomaly, a god-like being who can do pretty much whatever he wants, only limited by his human upbringing and morality. And more importantly, he's just way too powerful to meaningfully be part of a team-up. Justice League had Supes depowered to the point that he was basically depicted as about as strong and fast as Aquaman, which just doesn't make sense. And to counter Superman, the villains always have to be ridiculous CGI monsters too. Personally I thought the cybertronians in Man of Steel were much better adversaries for him than Doomsday or Steppenwolf, because they weren't just bulkier monsters but something he could've been.

Another thing is, that the iconic and pre-conceived ideas of what the characters are supposed to be is detrimental to character development. I liked the fact that Batfleck was an older, disillusioned batman who basically just killed people now, because it allowed him to improve and become better (though they didn't really go very far with this).
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If you mess with the theme of a story, then what's the point of telling the story?

Yes, the stories adapt over time. Batman was originally about people's fears about the rise of organized crime during Prohibition, but if your modern interpretation doesn't involve the public's fear about some kind of organized crime in the hear and now, then the story just isn't going to resonate as well.

I'm sorry, but turning Superman into an Ayn Rand hero is just idiotic, and that's kind of what Zach Snyder was trying to do with the character as far as I can tell. Question is the DC hero who represents that kind of libertarian nonsense. Trying to crowbar that onto Superman just results in a version of Superman that doesn't resonate with people.
 
Personally, I prefer the DC films vastly over the Marvel films. Man of Steel is probably my favorite Superman movie ever now, it really nailed what a fight between Kryptonians would be like along with the consequences. My only real complaint with BvS is that it was a bit too "talky", likely an overreaction due to the stupid complaints that MoS was "Superman punches things". Suicide Squad was mostly just great fun and I absolutely loved Leto's Joker. For the record I hated Ledger's Joker. It's a great character, but it's not the Joker at all. Wonder Woman was just a fantastic film that entertained from start to finish, though the final battle was a little humdrum IMO. But the assault from the trenches scene, that was freaking amazing. And Justice League, for me, brought it all together nicely and set the table for what's to come from the DCEU.

Honestly, if they "rebooted" due to the cries of people pre-disposed to dislike and criticize anything DC due to their being wedded to Marvel's success I'd likely bail on them and not even bother with it. Rebooted comics are bad enough already.

DC is different than Marvel and I appreciate it for that. I like the more realistic take on what a world with superbeings would be like. In Marvel films there's no consequences to the world for the actions of the superbeings. Hell, they just blipped out half the universe and the only time you see it happening to someone other than one of our heroes is in a credits scene! Contrast that with Superman making the decision to snap Zod's neck to save just one family that was about to die in front of him as a consequence of his battle. Marvel is fun and all, but to me it's like a dinner of whipped creme ... too airy and non-filling.
 
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