Comic book movie news & discussion

[Underseer]

What I don't like the DCEU and DC in general is how they have their iconic characters stuck in a mold. For example, your contention that Superman is "supposed to" represent depression era hopes. Nonsense. That was almost 80 years ago, it's time to move on. Personally I like Superman more as an anomaly, a god-like being who can do pretty much whatever he wants, only limited by his human upbringing and morality. And more importantly, he's just way too powerful to meaningfully be part of a team-up. Justice League had Supes depowered to the point that he was basically depicted as about as strong and fast as Aquaman, which just doesn't make sense. And to counter Superman, the villains always have to be ridiculous CGI monsters too. Personally I thought the cybertronians in Man of Steel were much better adversaries for him than Doomsday or Steppenwolf, because they weren't just bulkier monsters but something he could've been.

Another thing is, that the iconic and pre-conceived ideas of what the characters are supposed to be is detrimental to character development. I liked the fact that Batfleck was an older, disillusioned batman who basically just killed people now, because it allowed him to improve and become better (though they didn't really go very far with this).

Things do change.

Batman was about people's fears about the rise of organized crime during the Prohibition era.

If you're going to update it, then of course the organized criminals have to be updated to modern fears about organized crime. People aren't afraid of bootleggers anymore. So sure, update the criminals and the references. Nolan obviously changed the mafia/bootleggers into terrorists. Fine.

But if you change it so that it's not about people's fears about organized crime, then why bother telling a Batman story at all? Why not use a different character more appropriate for whatever story you're trying to tell?

And sure, Superman was an immigrant fantasy that was obviously inspired by the sons of Jewish immigrants from a certain era. It would make sense to update Superman to comment on modern problems faced by modern immigrants, but that doesn't mean every DC character needs to be forced into the "dark 'n gritty" mold just because Batman movies made good money. Dark 'n gritty just doesn't work for Superman. Not for me.

If you try to get all hardass and hardcore with Superman, you just end up with that ridiculous 90s-era mullet Superman, and that's a best-case scenario. More likely, you're going to end up the mediocre crap we got in the post-Nolan DCEU.

Each character can go through large changes (and all of them have), but when you stray too far from certain basic characteristics or themes, then why tell that story?

An X-Men story without something to say about bigotry is just another superhero team of musclebound oafs in tights spouting musclebound platitudes while trying to pulverize their enemies. We've already seen that a million times before. You don't read an X-Men story hoping for the same brainless action of other superhero teams, you're hoping it will say something interesting about racism/bigotry, such as when Claremont did God Loves, Man Kills and was brave enough to talk about the role religion played in the Nazi holocaust, American slavery, the American Jim Crow era, etc. FOX made X-Men 2 around two decades later and was too chickenshit to tell the same story, so they ripped out all references to religion and consequently ripped out the thing that made telling that story worthwhile. Sure, it still had something to say about bigotry and still had good action sequences and nice character moments, but it was a truly awful adaptation of God Loves, Man Kills.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Personally, I prefer the DC films vastly over the Marvel films. Man of Steel is probably my favorite Superman movie ever now, it really nailed what a fight between Kryptonians would be like along with the consequences. My only real complaint with BvS is that it was a bit too "talky", likely an overreaction due to the stupid complaints that MoS was "Superman punches things". Suicide Squad was mostly just great fun and I absolutely loved Leto's Joker. For the record I hated Ledger's Joker. It's a great character, but it's not the Joker at all. Wonder Woman was just a fantastic film that entertained from start to finish, though the final battle was a little humdrum IMO. But the assault from the trenches scene, that was freaking amazing. And Justice League, for me, brought it all together nicely and set the table for what's to come from the DCEU.

Honestly, if they "rebooted" due to the cries of people pre-disposed to dislike and criticize anything DC due to their being wedded to Marvel's success I'd likely bail on them and not even bother with it. Rebooted comics are bad enough already.

It isn't about Marvel's success. It is about how generally not interesting the DC films have been. I grew up on DC films, Superman and Batman. That is what I knew. Then Marvel Studios changed everything. Superman Returns happens and I was bored to tears. This isn't be a fanboy. This about compelling films. DC badly needs someone like Whedon to step in and make it compelling.

DC is different than Marvel and I appreciate it for that. I like the more realistic take on what a world with superbeings would be like. In Marvel films there's no consequences to the world for the actions of the superbeings. Hell, they just blipped out half the universe and the only time you see it happening to someone other than one of our heroes is in a credits scene! Contrast that with Superman making the decision to snap Zod's neck to save just one family that was about to die in front of him as a consequence of his battle. Marvel is fun and all, but to me it's like a dinner of whipped creme ... too airy and non-filling.

Except Batman v Superman was Civil War and the later was a much much much better movie, both in developing the super hero in a real world dilemma, and characters.

Regardless, I'm glad someone is enjoying the DC movies.

Honestly, I think Superman needs to turn heelish.

 

[Underseer]

[...]

Honestly, I think Superman needs to turn heelish.

Are you suggesting they bring back Mullet Superman from the 1990s?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

[...]

Honestly, I think Superman needs to turn heelish.

Are you suggesting they bring back Mullet Superman from the 1990s?

I have no idea what you are talking about, but it doesn't sound good.

I mean more of the, Superman starts thinking too much and applying his judgment more and more on the world. His intentions are good, but he is making himself a de facto global arbiter. It is the conflict such as Syria. Does Superman depose Assad and then Syria goes into anarchy or does Superman show up here or there and save a life or two. It becomes a story about the limitations of being a super hero, regardless how strong or how fast. So Superman is tired of children getting gas'd or starving. When do good intended deeds become mistaken meddling.

 

[James Brown]

Isn't that the Superman from Kingdom Come? He got fed up with people taking advantage of his desire to do good, so he reclused himself to a farm in Kansas.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Isn't that the Superman from Kingdom Come? He got fed up with people taking advantage of his desire to do good, so he reclused himself to a farm in Kansas.

That'd be a pretty boring movie. Superman feeding the hens and milking the cows in the morning. Tilling the land in the afternoon. Drinking a beer at night.

 

[James Brown]

Isn't that the Superman from Kingdom Come? He got fed up with people taking advantage of his desire to do good, so he reclused himself to a farm in Kansas.

That'd be a pretty boring movie. Superman feeding the hens and milking the cows in the morning. Tilling the land in the afternoon. Drinking a beer at night.

Well yeah. They had to do what they always have to do when the hero is a demigod. They created a crisis so impossibly huge that Wonder Woman had to use her bosoms to get Clark to come out of retirement. "We need you, Clark. I mean, really, really need your strong arms and your steely gaze to get us over this...this thing."

 

[Jayjay]

Isn't that the Superman from Kingdom Come? He got fed up with people taking advantage of his desire to do good, so he reclused himself to a farm in Kansas.

That'd be a pretty boring movie. Superman feeding the hens and milking the cows in the morning. Tilling the land in the afternoon. Drinking a beer at night.

There is actually another comic that asks a question, what if Superman had crash landed on an Amish farm and grown up as Amish? It turns out he's exactly like that. Except no beer probably.

That scenario is about as interesting as "what if superman wore yellow instead of blue?"

And speaking of Superman retiring, "The Red Son" is about him being raised in Soviet Russia by Stalin. Of course, Superman can make communism work and he takes over the world, except for the remnants of USA that survive because of Lex Luthor's genius is what keeps capitalism competitive. The moral is that he can't micromanage everything and eventually has to let people figure out their own way. I wish they'd adapt that story into a movie, or at least an animation.

 

[Goodchild]

Except Batman v Superman was Civil War and the later was a much much much better movie, both in developing the super hero in a real world dilemma, and characters.

Honestly, Civil War is IMO the worst of all the Marvel films. Watching it in the theater was pure drudgery for my entire family, including an 11-year old girl that adores Spider-Man. I don't particularly enjoy the hero v. hero concept at all anyway and with Civil War the premise was just cartoonish and the execution was only possible due to logical gaps and the heroes behaving in exactly one way only to fit with the villain's plan. Plus, it trashes Zemo ... one of my favorite Marvel villains, making him into just some stupid guy with a convoluted revenge plot.

That hero v. hero thing is probably part of why BvS is my lowest rated DC film as well.

Honestly, I think Superman needs to turn heelish.

I mean more of the, Superman starts thinking too much and applying his judgment more and more on the world. His intentions are good, but he is making himself a de facto global arbiter.

Have you read the comics for Injustice: Gods Among Us? It's pretty much exactly what you're asking for and is a phenomenal comics story. The basic premise in issue 1 is that Joker, using fear gas I believe, tricks Superman into accidentally killing Lois Lane. As Batman is capturing the Joker, Superman swoops in and rips out the Joker's heart. He then slowly but surely goes on to imposing his idea of justice on the rest of the world as he loses his way from the person the Kents raised him to be.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Honestly, Civil War is IMO the worst of all the Marvel films. Watching it in the theater was pure drudgery for my entire family, including an 11-year old girl that adores Spider-Man. I don't particularly enjoy the hero v. hero concept at all anyway and with Civil War the premise was just cartoonish and the execution was only possible due to logical gaps and the heroes behaving in exactly one way only to fit with the villain's plan. Plus, it trashes Zemo ... one of my favorite Marvel villains, making him into just some stupid guy with a convoluted revenge plot.

That hero v. hero thing is probably part of why BvS is my lowest rated DC film as well.

I mean more of the, Superman starts thinking too much and applying his judgment more and more on the world. His intentions are good, but he is making himself a de facto global arbiter.

Have you read the comics for Injustice: Gods Among Us? It's pretty much exactly what you're asking for and is a phenomenal comics story. The basic premise in issue 1 is that Joker, using fear gas I believe, tricks Superman into accidentally killing Lois Lane. As Batman is capturing the Joker, Superman swoops in and rips out the Joker's heart. He then slowly but surely goes on to imposing his idea of justice on the rest of the world as he loses his way from the person the Kents raised him to be.

Well we’ll have to agree that you are wrong about Civil War.

Batman v Superman sucked because the story was dumb. Mr. Vigilante and significant collateral damage man is upset because of collateral damage by Superman. Then the whole Martha thing just reeked. Also Luther seemed off as well.

As far as that Superman story, I think it would be best without Lane dying, because it’d be about Superman himself slowly evolving into a global decider. No one made him that way, he just evolves into it. I think that might be where they are heading with the movies.

 

[Underseer]

[...]

Honestly, I think Superman needs to turn heelish.

Are you suggesting they bring back Mullet Superman from the 1990s?

I have no idea what you are talking about, but it doesn't sound good.

I mean more of the, Superman starts thinking too much and applying his judgment more and more on the world. His intentions are good, but he is making himself a de facto global arbiter. It is the conflict such as Syria. Does Superman depose Assad and then Syria goes into anarchy or does Superman show up here or there and save a life or two. It becomes a story about the limitations of being a super hero, regardless how strong or how fast. So Superman is tired of children getting gas'd or starving. When do good intended deeds become mistaken meddling.

If you want to do a movie about superhero vigilantism as interventionism, Justice Lords would probably be a better story.

Lex Luthor gets elected president, kills the Flash, then Superman kills Luthor, which leads to the Justice League saying fuck it, they conquer the Earth and become dictators.

There have been various characters or stories over the years meant to draw attention to the fact that the vigilante fantasy has fascist elements, and I thought Justice Lords (I'm familiar with the outline of the story, but didn't read the actual comic books) deconstructed the vigilante fantasy in the most interesting and most shocking way.

 

[Underseer]

Major Avengers 3 spoilers:

Show

This guy is pretty sure Loki faked his own death yet again.

 

[Underseer]

Donald Glover released a Deadpool script he wrote for the new-defunct Deadpool cartoon for FX.

Here is a live reading by non-actors.

 

[Goodchild]

Honestly, Civil War is IMO the worst of all the Marvel films. Watching it in the theater was pure drudgery for my entire family, including an 11-year old girl that adores Spider-Man. I don't particularly enjoy the hero v. hero concept at all anyway and with Civil War the premise was just cartoonish and the execution was only possible due to logical gaps and the heroes behaving in exactly one way only to fit with the villain's plan. Plus, it trashes Zemo ... one of my favorite Marvel villains, making him into just some stupid guy with a convoluted revenge plot.

That hero v. hero thing is probably part of why BvS is my lowest rated DC film as well.

I mean more of the, Superman starts thinking too much and applying his judgment more and more on the world. His intentions are good, but he is making himself a de facto global arbiter.

Have you read the comics for Injustice: Gods Among Us? It's pretty much exactly what you're asking for and is a phenomenal comics story. The basic premise in issue 1 is that Joker, using fear gas I believe, tricks Superman into accidentally killing Lois Lane. As Batman is capturing the Joker, Superman swoops in and rips out the Joker's heart. He then slowly but surely goes on to imposing his idea of justice on the rest of the world as he loses his way from the person the Kents raised him to be.

Well we’ll have to agree that you are wrong about Civil War.

Batman v Superman sucked because the story was dumb. Mr. Vigilante and significant collateral damage man is upset because of collateral damage by Superman. Then the whole Martha thing just reeked. Also Luther seemed off as well. .

See, I've never understood how someone can slag off the "Martha" scene (which IMO was pretty great, it was a touchstone for Batman into Superman's humanity in a way that only he would get) but totally praises the film with the Magical Mystery Camera Oh, and a villainous plan that only works if the heroes do exactly what they did in the film and falls apart the moment the heroes don't behave in a forced manner.

 

[Underseer]

Well we’ll have to agree that you are wrong about Civil War.

Batman v Superman sucked because the story was dumb. Mr. Vigilante and significant collateral damage man is upset because of collateral damage by Superman. Then the whole Martha thing just reeked. Also Luther seemed off as well. .

See, I've never understood how someone can slag off the "Martha" scene (which IMO was pretty great, it was a touchstone for Batman into Superman's humanity in a way that only he would get) but totally praises the film with the Magical Mystery Camera Oh, and a villainous plan that only works if the heroes do exactly what they did in the film and falls apart the moment the heroes don't behave in a forced manner.

I'm pretty sure Zemo's plan was pretty simple/vague, and had to be corrected/adjusted frequently. All he was really counting on was getting the video and making sure Tony saw it while stoking as much discord as he could.

Luthor's plan on the other hand was pretty much what you say about Civil War, and the Martha scene was poorly written and poorly directed. It should have been the big payoff in which Batman realizes that he's now on the other side of the gun (which is the reason they showed the alley scene yet again), but instead of being a payoff, it just came across as ridiculous.

For the indulgent only:




That's around 4 hours of analysis that boils down to this: the truly awful movies aren't the ones that are awful at everything. The ones that are awful at everything are the kind of awful that's fun to watch (in a MST3K sort of way). The truly awful movies are the ones made by otherwise talented people that should have been much better, and that's exactly why BvS is such a dumpster fire (I'm a Marvel fan, but I desperately wanted BvS to be good).

The planned story arc for Batman was really good conceptually, but the execution sucked big, sweaty donkey balls and so everyone chortles at the word "Martha!" The payoff didn't work because the setup was bungled.

When we get to the big video reveal in Civil War, it's a payoff that was set up over the course of several movies. Tony Stark knew he was being manipulated by Zemo and didn't care. More importantly, the audience understood why he didn't care. We understood his motives in that moment, and so his decision made sense.

 

[fromderinside]

I'm still looking for a full length Scrooge McDuck episode where he, Huey, Duey, and Louie triumph over some rich guy and the Beagle Boys in a movie - it would be nice if there were cameos for Donald and Daisy and Chip and Dale - produced by Jerry Bruckheimer. Sure winner that.

If cartoons are too much how about Mark Trail in 'Marijuana Skies over Manitoba'?

Brenda Starr reporter?

No imagination from those Hollywood gees.

 

[Underseer]

I'm still looking for a full length Scrooge McDuck episode where he, Huey, Duey, and Louie triumph over some rich guy and the Beagle Boys in a movie - it would be nice if there were cameos for Donald and Daisy and Chip and Dale - produced by Jerry Bruckheimer. Sure winner that.

If cartoons are too much how about Mark Trail in 'Marijuana Skies over Manitoba'?

Brenda Starr reporter?

No imagination from those Hollywood gees.

If you can put butts in seats with any of those movies, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding backers.

 

[fromderinside]

R U saying I don't need ands nor ifs?

 

[Underseer]

Moviebob vs Nerd Rage



Nerds of a certain age: The new Thundercats is terrible! They're not taking it seriously when I remember Thundercats being epicawesomesauce!

Moviebob: Thundercats was a shitty cartoon slapped together to sell shit toys. Fuck you for putting that on a pedestal.

Is it just me, or is Moviebob usually extra good when he's unloading both barrels on fellow nerds?

(I wasn't sure where to put this video, but this seems the best thread for making fun of nerd rage.)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Thundercats was a bit of an unusual cartoon as it actually went somewhere and had a conclusion. It was certainly not nearly as bad as Transformers or GI joe as being a 30 minute commercial, but it was a cartoon in the 80’s which means it wasn’t that good for anyone but children.