Consciousness

[untermensche]

Again, if "thought" is some quantum effect it is not anything we can see in a scan.

That isn't evidence Its more argument, I've had enough of your nonsense

I don't need evidence since you offer none.

There is activity in the brain.

How any of that activity is connected to consciousness is unknown.

What is of interest is not whether or not the brain somehow creates consciousness.

What is of interest is the nature of consciousness. What can it do?

That will not be answered by looking at scans of relative activity. Or by looking at any activity.

It will only be answered by understanding what the activity is actually doing. How it is creating the effect of experience.

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And the brain forms consciousness.

And consciousness moves the arm at will.

You are saying nothing and making no point.

That's the point where you fail and fail badly. Movement intention has been shown to initiate milliseconds prior to conscious report. Not only that but the two functions can be separated to the point where subjects believe they have moved their arm but have not, or that they have in fact moved their arm but conscious report being blocked they assert that they have not moved a muscle.

I have provided links to experiments several time, but of course dismissed by you because it doesn't agree with your own fallacious ideas.

You simply label some activity you do not understand in any way a "movement intention". How convenient, you have found "intention".

It is pretending to understand the situation by putting labels on things that are not understood at all.

This labeling is transparently absurd and worthless.

 

[none]

That isn't evidence Its more argument, I've had enough of your nonsense

I don't need evidence since you offer none.

There is activity in the brain.

How any of that activity is connected to consciousness is unknown.

What is of interest is not whether or not the brain somehow creates consciousness.

What is of interest is the nature of consciousness. What can it do?

That will not be answered by looking at scans of relative activity. Or by looking at any activity.

It will only be answered by understanding what the activity is actually doing. How it is creating the effect of experience.

- - - Updated - - -

And the brain forms consciousness.

And consciousness moves the arm at will.

You are saying nothing and making no point.

That's the point where you fail and fail badly. Movement intention has been shown to initiate milliseconds prior to conscious report. Not only that but the two functions can be separated to the point where subjects believe they have moved their arm but have not, or that they have in fact moved their arm but conscious report being blocked they assert that they have not moved a muscle.

I have provided links to experiments several time, but of course dismissed by you because it doesn't agree with your own fallacious ideas.

You simply label some activity you do not understand in any way a "movement intention".

It is pretending to understand the situation by putting labels on things that are not understood at all.

It is transparently absurd and worthless.

Um the brain scan image is evidence

 

[DBT]

You simply label some activity you do not understand in any way a "movement intention". How convenient, you have found "intention".

It is pretending to understand the situation by putting labels on things that are not understood at all.

It is transparently absurd and worthless.

It's not just me saying these things. It's practically all who happen work in the field doing the experiments. Your arm waving, more like desperate flapping, does not fool anyone.

 

[untermensche]

You simply label some activity you do not understand in any way a "movement intention". How convenient, you have found "intention".

It is pretending to understand the situation by putting labels on things that are not understood at all.

It is transparently absurd and worthless.

It's not just me saying these things. It's practically all who happen work in the field doing the experiments. Your arm waving, more like desperate flapping, does not fool anyone.

Shared self-delusion. Herd mentality.

Happens all the time in science.

Only evidence of human weakness.

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Um the brain scan image is evidence

The scan is evidence that activity is taking place.

It is not an explanation of any of the activity or proof of what any of the activity is doing.

 

[none]

If a person is depressed the image is not the same as someone who is not depressed and other depressed people have similar scans
Saying drinking alcohol or taking any depression medication is having some quantum affect that is responsible for consciousness is unfounded
I'm not sure why you are refusing to admit that a brain scan is a record of thought
Its pretty cut and dry, there is plenty of evidence the brain is responsible for thought and motor control it's not some new theory or speculation wrapped up in pseudoscience
You don't need to scale down to the quantum level to accurately describe what is happening

 

[untermensche]

If a person is depressed the image is not the same as someone who is not depressed and other depressed people have similar scans
Saying drinking alcohol or taking any depression medication is having some quantum affect that is responsible for consciousness is unfounded
I'm not sure why you are refusing to admit that a brain scan is a record of thought
Its pretty cut and dry, there is plenty of evidence the brain is responsible for thought and motor control it's not some new theory or speculation wrapped up in pseudoscience
You don't need to scale down to the quantum level to accurately describe what is happening

There is no image that shows depression.

All we know about depression is from subjective reports.

We have no more understanding than that.

Placebo works well on many people with depression.

So does "talking therapy".

So is depression a problem with the brain or a problem with the mind?

 

[none]

If a person is depressed the image is not the same as someone who is not depressed and other depressed people have similar scans
Saying drinking alcohol or taking any depression medication is having some quantum affect that is responsible for consciousness is unfounded
I'm not sure why you are refusing to admit that a brain scan is a record of thought
Its pretty cut and dry, there is plenty of evidence the brain is responsible for thought and motor control it's not some new theory or speculation wrapped up in pseudoscience
You don't need to scale down to the quantum level to accurately describe what is happening

There is no image that shows depression.

All we know about depression is from subjective reports.

We have no more understanding than that.

Placebo works well on many people with depression.

So does "talking therapy".

So is depression a problem with the brain or a problem with the mind?

If a person reports they are depressed and a scan is done it is different than someone whom is well
Mind is a distraction, it has no set definition
Better to stay away from things that you don't understand like quantum mechanics and minds because it makes you look foolish
Your argument is not sound given the evidence
Particle duality may sound interesting but it is far different than mind body duality

 

[untermensche]

If a person reports they are depressed and a scan is done it is different than someone whom is well

Not true.

Mind is a distraction, it has no set definition

No definition, my point exactly. You cannot magically subtract mind and all that is associated with mind from a discussion of consciousness.

Nor can you subtract the necessity to explain mind and all that goes with it if you claim to explain consciousness.

Better to stay away from things that you don't understand like quantum mechanics and minds because it makes you look foolish

To me you look like a naive simpleton with everything you write.

You have no understanding of any of this material.

You have some behaviorist preconceptions that were shown to be nonsense 60 years ago.

 

[DBT]

All you have is assertions, insults and dismissal, Mr Untermensche, no rational arguments, no evidence and no reason....only faith based beliefs founded upon your subjective experience (autonomous consciousness/agency), just like religion in general.

 

[none]

his latest denial that brain scans of depressed people are not different than well people is really telling
and removing the word mind doesn't change the brain scans

 

[untermensche]

All you have is assertions, insults and dismissal, Mr Untermensche, no rational arguments, no evidence and no reason....only faith based beliefs founded upon your subjective experience (autonomous consciousness/agency), just like religion in general.

I have offered only rational arguments.

You have none.

You attach bad labels to brain activity you don't understand.

Nothing more.

 

[untermensche]

his latest denial that brain scans of depressed people are not different than well people is really telling
and removing the word mind doesn't change the brain scans

You are just ignorant.

Nobody can tell if a person is depressed by looking at a scan.

Again, all scans look at are relative levels of activity.

They do not say anything about the type of activity.

At our current level of understanding all brain activity is the same thing, even though the effect of the activity varies greatly.

 

[bilby]

I am disinterested in a pharmacist's assessment of my level of intelligence or education.

You should consider the work of Kruger and Dunning in this field.

You have bad ideas you can't support.

You claim the brain somehow some way decides on it's own to move the arm. Before it does this it creates a false impression in consciousness to make consciousness think it is doing something to move the arm.

It is a story only a child would believe.

And something you can support in no way.

Yes, I am only a lowly physical therapist then pharmacist.

But I know when people are full of it and doing nothing more than trying to pass bad opinion off as fact.

You have nothing but ignorance and the stupid insults that come along with it.

Well you are excellent at constructing straw men, and at projection. So I guess it's true that everyone is good at something.

The brain decides to move its arm. It can reach this decision by processing external inputs and/or memories; or it can create the idea to do it from some mysterious 'elsewhere'.

If consciousness is involved, then it is either a part of the processing between input and output; or it is a byproduct of that processing.

The idea that consciousness is an input to the processing that arises without reference to any other input is pure fucking creationism. Next you will be telling me that we are receiving signals from God, using our brains as radios.

 

[untermensche]

The brain decides to move its arm. It can reach this decision by processing external inputs and/or memories; or it can create the idea to do it from some mysterious 'elsewhere'.

This is "information" you have pulled from your backside.

You cannot point to any "decision" made any brain.

Saying "input/output" is not evidence of anything except an ignorant assumption the brain somehow works like a modern day computer.

If consciousness is involved, then it is either a part of the processing between input and output; or it is a byproduct of that processing.

Consciousness fully believes it is not only involved but crucial.

If consciousness just says "no" then nothing happens.

And if subjects are allowed to randomly say "no" in studies no researcher can predict it.

 

[beero1000]

his latest denial that brain scans of depressed people are not different than well people is really telling
and removing the word mind doesn't change the brain scans

You are just ignorant.

Nobody can tell if a person is depressed by looking at a scan.

Again, all scans look at are relative levels of activity.

They do not say anything about the type of activity.

At our current level of understanding all brain activity is the same thing, even though the effect of the activity varies greatly.

Reality disagrees with you (again), but that hasn't ever stopped you before...

Anatomical Brain Images Alone Can Accurately Diagnose Chronic Neuropsychiatric Illnesses

In MRI datasets from persons with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Schizophrenia, Tourette Syndrome, Bipolar Disorder, or persons at high or low familial risk for Major Depressive Disorder, our method discriminated with high specificity and nearly perfect sensitivity the brains of persons who had one specific neuropsychiatric disorder from the brains of healthy participants and the brains of persons who had a different neuropsychiatric disorder.

 

[untermensche]

Reality disagrees with you (again), but that hasn't ever stopped you before...

Strawman.

He was talking about a normal person experiencing a bout of depression.

This is what he said.

If a person reports they are depressed and a scan is done it is different than someone whom is well

He was not talking about somebody with a serious long term dysfunction.

And he was also talking about activity scans, not scans looking at anatomical anomalies.

Poor reading appears (again).

 

[fromderinside]

So untermenche orders everyone except none out of the room and says "I hope you'll drop the investigation of Gen Flynn. He's a good man"

When none reported exactly what untermenche said, untermenche, who didn't read what was reported responds "I said no such thing".

The problem untermenche is that if you exclude everything from a situation except what you want there can be no evidence. So you say there is no evidence, even when by the act of excluding everything from the situation you have implicitly admitted you intended to deny anything was said or done.

Do you, untermenche, want to go forward being accused of being a Trump?

Not a strawman I think.

 

[untermensche]

So untermenche orders everyone except none out of the room and says "I hope you'll drop the investigation of Gen Flynn. He's a good man"

When none reported exactly what untermenche said, untermenche, who didn't read what was reported responds "I said no such thing".

The problem untermenche is that if you exclude everything from a situation except what you want there can be no evidence. So you say there is no evidence, even when by the act of excluding everything from the situation you have implicitly admitted you intended to deny anything was said or done.

Do you, untermenche, want to go forward being accused of being a Trump?

Not a strawman I think.

Are you off your meds again?

Yes, when there is brain damage or actual alteration of anatomy it can be picked up by an MRI.

But no scan can tell you if a person is depressed or not depressed.

Depression is many times a problem of the mind, like after the death of a close friend, not a problem of the brain.

 

[bilby]

This is "information" you have pulled from your backside.

You cannot point to any "decision" made any brain.

Saying "input/output" is not evidence of anything except an ignorant assumption the brain somehow works like a modern day computer.

If consciousness is involved, then it is either a part of the processing between input and output; or it is a byproduct of that processing.

Consciousness fully believes it is not only involved but crucial.

And it is mistaken. Just as you are, because you are dumb enough to trust it.

If consciousness just says "no" then nothing happens.

And if subjects are allowed to randomly say "no" in studies no researcher can predict it.

Human beings are EXTRAORDINARILY bad at generating randomness. If subjects are randomly allowed to say 'no' in experiments, they actually do so in a measurably non-random way.

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.

 

[beero1000]

Strawman.

He was talking about a normal person experiencing a bout of depression.

This is what he said.

If a person reports they are depressed and a scan is done it is different than someone whom is well

He was not talking about somebody with a serious long term dysfunction.

And he was also talking about activity scans, not scans looking at anatomical anomalies.

Poor reading appears (again).

As expected, wrong again with a side of denial.

Fully automated classification algorithms have been successfully applied to diagnose a wide range of neurological and psychiatric diseases. They are sufficiently robust to handle data from different scanners for many applications and in specific cases outperform radiologists. This article provides an overview of current applications taking structural imaging in Alzheimer's disease and schizophrenia as well as functional imaging to diagnose depression as examples. In this context, we also report studies aiming to predict the future course of the disease and the response to treatment for the individual. This has obvious clinical relevance but is also important for the design of treatment studies that may aim to include a cohort with a predicted fast disease progression to be more sensitive to detect treatment effects.

In recent years, such approaches have also shown their potential for high-accuracy classification in the context of depression: For example, Fu et al correctly classified depressive patients on the basis of their neural response during the presentation of sad faces (with 74% accuracy for medium-intensity sad faces and 76% accuracy for high intensity sad faces). Corresponding to the impaired recognition of neutral facial expressions on the behavioral level, depressive patients could also be identified on the basis of their neural response pattern following neutral facial expressions (accuracy rate, 87%).

Care to try again?