Consciousness

[untermensche]

Similary?

Yes. You claimed one thing was similar to another.

Yet you do not even know what one of the things is.

You can look at subjective reports of experience but you cannot look at experience. You can look and look in the brain and you will not tell me where experience is or how it is being produced.

 

[DBT]

The brain is establishing connections when there was a momentary lapse/failure to recall. You could not remember because the link was not made in that moment in time. when it was established, you remember. It came to mind in a flash of insight, you had the experience of remembering.

The complete experience of a conscious you, you failing to recall and you recalling something that was momentarily forgotten is produced by the brain.

Information in, information processed, information represented in conscious form, actions taken.

You are pulling facts from you ass. You have no idea how any of this happens.

What causes the brain to search for a memory?

Why does it have to search? Why does the brain fail sometimes to find it?

Something is certainly being pulled from someone's arse, but it doesn't happen to be me or mine.

The senses are structured for acquiring information. The brain is wired for information processing, storing memory with which to build an internal picture of the world and self. Memory failure is a failure to make a connection, it may be a temporary glitch as with any complex system, or a systemic breakdown of memory function...which spells the end of conscious self and the ability to recognize, think and reason.

 

[DBT]

Process, as I said, is quite unknown.

However, removal of parts of the brain remove memory. We know what, but not how.

Yes I know all that.

So obviously these stimulation studies do not tell us anything about how the brain stores or creates the experience of a memory.

But my question is the same as: How does the mind move the arm? How does the mind get the brain to access a memory?

Beginning with the fundamentals of Cognition.

1) ''Neurons [/url]are nerve cells (neurocytes), which, together with neuroglial cells, comprise the nervous tissue making up the nervous system. The neuron is the integral element of our five senses and of countless other physical, regulatory, and mental faculties, including memory and consciousness. A neuron consists of a nerve cell body (or soma), an elongated projection (axon), and short branching fibers (called dendrites). Neurons receive nerve signals (action potentials), integrate action potentials, and transmit these signals to other neurons or effector organs, such as muscles and glands. The structure and function of neurons is essentially the same in all animals, although the human nervous system is much more specialized and complicated than that of lower animals.''

''At the axon hillock, chemical signals received by the dendrites may reach a threshold level to cause a wave of electrical depolarization and hyperpolarization of the axon cell membrane. The net movements of ions across the cell membrane are responsible for these changes that move down the axon to the axon terminus as an action potential. At the axon terminus, neurotransmitters are released into the synaptic gap. Through synaptic gaps, a typical neuron may interconnect with thousands and tens of thousands of other neurons. Axon terminals have knob-like swellings at the very end called synaptic knobs or end buttons. Each synaptic knob communicates with a dendrite or cell body of another neuron, the point of contact being a synapse.''

Memory is physically formed within neurons and neural pathways, shapes of proteins and - ''during the habitution of a repeated action, excitatory synapses from the sensory neurons onto motor neurons and interneurons undergo depression''' (well worn neural pathways facilitate a quick and well 'learnt' response) and sensory impulses travelling along pathways are modified by these memory 'markers' - which in turn stimulate the neural cell to respond in a particular way, signaling the production of seratonin, glandular secretions, and motor neuron functions, consciously perceived as feelings, etc...neurons do not make conscious choices, yet a response is achieved according to the stimulus that is applied to the neuron by the kind of input it receives, which means the response may, as mentioned above, entail a release of neurochemicals and a motor responses. Again, according to the nature of the stimulus that is applied by input to the cells, networks and structures and not by an action of 'conscious will'

''Among the brain's modular processors, some do not extract and process signals from the environment, but rather from the subject's own body and brain. Each brain thus contains multiple representations of itself and its body at several levels'' (Damasio,1999).

''The physical location of our body is encoded in continuously updated somatic, kinesthetic, and motor maps. Its biochemical homeostasis is represented in various subcortical and cortical circuits controlling our drives and emotions. We also represent ourselves as a person with an identity (presumably involving face and person-processing circuits of the inferior and anterior temporal lobes) and an autobiography encoded in episodic memory. Finally, at a higher cognitive level, the action perception, verbal reasoning, and `theory of mind' modules that we apply to interpret and predict other people's actions may also help us make sense of our own behavior
Once mobilized into the conscious workspace, the activity of those `self-coding' circuits would be available for inspection by many other processes, thus providing a putative basis for reflexive or higher-order consciousness.'' (Fletcher et al., 1995; Gallese, Fadiga, Fogassi, & Rizzolatti, 1996; Weiskrantz, 1997)''.

'When chemicals contact the surface of a neuron, they change the balance of ions (electrically charged atoms) between the inside and outside of the cell membrane. When this change reaches a threshold level, this effect runs across the cell's membrane to the axon. When it reaches the axon, it initiates the action potential, which is a rapidly moving exchange of ions.''

 

[untermensche]

You are pulling facts from you ass. You have no idea how any of this happens.

What causes the brain to search for a memory?

Why does it have to search? Why does the brain fail sometimes to find it?

Something is certainly being pulled from someone's arse, but it doesn't happen to be me or mine.

The senses are structured for acquiring information. The brain is wired for information processing, storing memory with which to build an internal picture of the world and self. Memory failure is a failure to make a connection, it may be a temporary glitch as with any complex system, or a systemic breakdown of memory function...which spells the end of conscious self and the ability to recognize, think and reason.

You do not know how or what the brain is "wired' for.

You just pull one thing from your ass after another.

How does the brain create the experience of a memory? How does it create any experience? What is experience?

I'm tired of your nonsense.

 

[untermensche]

Memory is physically formed within neurons and neural pathways, shapes of proteins and - ''during the habitution of a repeated action, excitatory synapses from the sensory neurons onto motor neurons and interneurons undergo depression

Total worthlessness. Facts pulled from somebody's ass.

Show me the physical structure of a memory.

 

[Underseer]

The conscious is a passenger on a bus it is not driving; the spokesman for the body/mind responsible for explaining why the body/mind did what it did. Responsible for telling the driver where to go. Consciousness is the on-board computer capable of reasoning, capable of drawing inferences, capable of making plans but not always capable of carrying them out (when in conflict the unconscious, the driver, wins). The mind is embodied. No body, nobody, no mind. Never mind.
The driver is responsible for taking input from the environment and remembering patterns so the next time that pattern is seen it may be avoided, altered or repeated depending on the feedback from the environment, and presenting it to the conscious for decision-making.

Here's the thing.

Let's say I hook electrodes up to the nerves in your arm.

Let's further say that I send electrical current into those electrodes to cause you to raise your arm.

After that, let's say I ask you why you raised your arm.

Science has shown that in that circumstance, you will give me a reason for why you decided to raise your arm.

So your whole notion of agency (much less free will) isn't quite what you might like to think it is. We are consciously choosing things less often than we think, and on top of that we all have a laundry list of cognitive biases and logical fallacies that influence our thinking in bad ways, so even when we are actually choosing, there's a good thing we are choosing badly because of our stupid instincts and are not being as logical as we think we are.

 

[George S]

The conscious is a passenger on a bus it is not driving; the spokesman for the body/mind responsible for explaining why the body/mind did what it did. Responsible for telling the driver where to go. Consciousness is the on-board computer capable of reasoning, capable of drawing inferences, capable of making plans but not always capable of carrying them out (when in conflict the unconscious, the driver, wins). The mind is embodied. No body, nobody, no mind. Never mind.
The driver is responsible for taking input from the environment and remembering patterns so the next time that pattern is seen it may be avoided, altered or repeated depending on the feedback from the environment, and presenting it to the conscious for decision-making.

Here's the thing.

Let's say I hook electrodes up to the nerves in your arm.

Let's further say that I send electrical current into those electrodes to cause you to raise your arm.

After that, let's say I ask you why you raised your arm.

Science has shown that in that circumstance, you will give me a reason for why you decided to raise your arm.

So your whole notion of agency (much less free will) isn't quite what you might like to think it is. We are consciously choosing things less often than we think, and on top of that we all have a laundry list of cognitive biases and logical fallacies that influence our thinking in bad ways, so even when we are actually choosing, there's a good thing we are choosing badly because of our stupid instincts and are not being as logical as we think we are.

The conscious is very good at justifying unconscious actions and decisions. That is part of its job. We know that conscious reasoning is slower, much slower, than unconscious reasoning. When you drive a car or ride a bike you don't take the time to consciously reason out: There's a car on that road. It seems to be driving at a speed such that we will be at that intersection ahead at the same time. Therefore I should apply the brake. Compare learning a new dance and dancing a dance you have learned. The steps become unconscious.
Actions in the moment are carried out by the unconscious.
Once I found myself quoting my mother when chastising my girls. What had happened is that hearing that in childhood had set up an in this situation, these words are appropriate. Of course there are many things my parents did in parenting that were consciously overridden. By imagining those situations and rehearsing a different wording than my parents.
Free will is in the rehearsal. Imagining situations and deciding what you will do when it comes up. What will I do if I am overchanged a dollar? Ten? Two Hundred?
What is actually done by the unconscious in the moment sometimes surprises the conscious. Why did I do that!?
Consciousness: I am the Union Boss whose orders are mostly carried out, but sometimes the members up and do whatever. My bitch is I have to rationalize that action.

 

[George S]

Free Will

The will is as free as imagination.

To quote Dan Dennett: "Whenever you hear [or read]a sentence you make another copy in your mind. Whenever you hear [or read]a sentence you make another copy in your mind."

Fake it 'til you make it works. At first it doesn't. It takes conscious effort. And then through repetition becomes unconscious -- learned.

Dress for success works. If you comport yourself as a successful person you admire does, including dress, you are learning.

Teaching a subject leads to thorough learning. Repetition over the semesters. Answering student questions; many times questions you had not thought about and you learn a little more.

Practice makes perfect doesn't work. Having a mentor who can correct the practice is necessary. If you've done it wrong for a week it may take ten weeks of correct practice to correct.

Consciousness is imagination, too. Imagination constrained and corrected by sensory experience.
Daydreaming is imagination, too. Imagination constrained by natural law. Knowledge of practical physics.
Dreaming is is imagination, too. Imagination unconstrained by physics.
May all your dreams come true. May all your plans come true.

 

[untermensche]

Here's the thing.

Let's say I hook electrodes up to the nerves in your arm.

Let's further say that I send electrical current into those electrodes to cause you to raise your arm.

After that, let's say I ask you why you raised your arm.

Science has shown that in that circumstance, you will give me a reason for why you decided to raise your arm...

I don't think this describes any real science out there, but you do understand even if true this does not mean you can't move your arm whenever you choose?

 

[untermensche]

To quote Dan Dennett: "Whenever you hear [or read]a sentence you make another copy in your mind. Whenever you hear [or read]a sentence you make another copy in your mind."

What is this "you" he is talking about?

What is making copies in their mind?

 

[DBT]

Something is certainly being pulled from someone's arse, but it doesn't happen to be me or mine.

The senses are structured for acquiring information. The brain is wired for information processing, storing memory with which to build an internal picture of the world and self. Memory failure is a failure to make a connection, it may be a temporary glitch as with any complex system, or a systemic breakdown of memory function...which spells the end of conscious self and the ability to recognize, think and reason.

You do not know how or what the brain is "wired' for.

Sure I do. Behavioral output tells its own story. Different species have their own intrigue attributes related to their environmental niche, sense, ability to negotiate their surroundings, etc;

It's a whole field of study;

Evolutionary Biology;
Principle 1.[/url] The brain is a physical system. It functions as a computer. Its circuits are designed to generate behavior that is appropriate to your environmental circumstances.

The brain is a physical system whose operation is governed solely by the laws of chemistry and physics. What does this mean? It means that all of your thoughts and hopes and dreams and feelings are produced by chemical reactions going on in your head (a sobering thought). The brain's function is to process information. In other words, it is a computer that is made of organic (carbon-based) compounds rather than silicon chips. The brain is comprised of cells: primarily neurons and their supporting structures. Neurons are cells that are specialized for the transmission of information. Electrochemical reactions cause neurons to fire.

Neurons are connected to one another in a highly organized way. One can think of these connections as circuits -- just like a computer has circuits. These circuits determine how the brain processes information, just as the circuits in your computer determine how it processes information. Neural circuits in your brain are connected to sets of neurons that run throughout your body. Some of these neurons are connected to sensory receptors, such as the retina of your eye. Others are connected to your muscles. Sensory receptors are cells that are specialized for gathering information from the outer world and from other parts of the body. (You can feel your stomach churn because there are sensory receptors on it, but you cannot feel your spleen, which lacks them.) Sensory receptors are connected to neurons that transmit this information to your brain. Other neurons send information from your brain to motor neurons. Motor neurons are connected to your muscles; they cause your muscles to move. This movement is what we call behavior.

In other words, the reason we have one set of circuits rather than another is that the circuits that we have were better at solving problems that our ancestors faced during our species' evolutionary history than alternative circuits were. The brain is a naturally constructed computational system whose function is to solve adaptive information-processing problems (such as face recognition, threat interpretation, language acquisition, or navigation). Over evolutionary time, its circuits were cumulatively added because they "reasoned" or "processed information" in a way that enhanced the adaptive regulation of behavior and physiology.

Realizing that the function of the brain is information-processing has allowed cognitive scientists to resolve (at least one version of) the mind/body problem. For cognitive scientists, brain and mind are terms that refer to the same system, which can be described in two complementary ways -- either in terms of its physical properties (the brain), or in terms of its information-processing operation (the mind). The physical organization of the brain evolved because that physical organization brought about certain information-processing relationships -- ones that were adaptive.

It is important to realize that our circuits weren't designed to solve just any old kind of problem. They were designed to solve adaptive problems''

You just pull one thing from your ass after another.

No, that's still you. Basically, you are clueless. You ignore all evidence, research, analysis and the views of experts in their field and just repeat your own unfounded ideas....which is the very definition of your lament.

How does the brain create the experience of a memory? How does it create any experience? What is experience?

This has all been addressed. You ignore everything that does not suit your faith.

I'm tired of your nonsense.

Which is none of my concern.

 

[untermensche]

How does the brain create the experience of a memory? How does it create any experience? What is experience?

This has all been addressed. You ignore everything that does not suit your faith.

That is a lie.

You do not understand the first thing about how a brain creates any experience.

It is absolute mystery.

That is what I tire of, lies.

 

[DBT]

The conscious is a passenger on a bus it is not driving; the spokesman for the body/mind responsible for explaining why the body/mind did what it did. Responsible for telling the driver where to go. Consciousness is the on-board computer capable of reasoning, capable of drawing inferences, capable of making plans but not always capable of carrying them out (when in conflict the unconscious, the driver, wins). The mind is embodied. No body, nobody, no mind. Never mind.
The driver is responsible for taking input from the environment and remembering patterns so the next time that pattern is seen it may be avoided, altered or repeated depending on the feedback from the environment, and presenting it to the conscious for decision-making.

Here's the thing.

Let's say I hook electrodes up to the nerves in your arm.

Let's further say that I send electrical current into those electrodes to cause you to raise your arm.

After that, let's say I ask you why you raised your arm.

Science has shown that in that circumstance, you will give me a reason for why you decided to raise your arm.

So your whole notion of agency (much less free will) isn't quite what you might like to think it is. We are consciously choosing things less often than we think, and on top of that we all have a laundry list of cognitive biases and logical fallacies that influence our thinking in bad ways, so even when we are actually choosing, there's a good thing we are choosing badly because of our stupid instincts and are not being as logical as we think we are.

Plus conscious decisions have prior processing activity which feed into conscious activity.

 

[4321lynx]

This has all been addressed. You ignore everything that does not suit your faith.

That is a lie.

You do not understand the first thing about how a brain creates any experience.

It is absolute mystery.

That is what I tire of, lies.

That is a lie.

After over 30,000 posts you are still not tired enough of this place to quit and go somewhere else, which is unfortunate for the rest of us.

That is what I tire of, (your) lies.

 

[DBT]

Mr Untermensche craves the last word. Having the last word would give him a sense of achievement, a sense of victory, a feeling that his point is well made.

 

[untermensche]

Mr Untermensche craves the last word. Having the last word would give him a sense of achievement, a sense of victory, a feeling that his point is well made.

It was my first word too.

Somehow some activity results in conscious experience.

But we have no idea what that activity is. We have no idea what it could be.

 

[DBT]

Mr Untermensche craves the last word. Having the last word would give him a sense of achievement, a sense of victory, a feeling that his point is well made.

It was my first word too.

Somehow some activity results in conscious experience.

But we have no idea what that activity is. We have no idea what it could be.

The ''hard problem'' being how a brain forms conscious experience, not that it doesn't. Not that consciousness is beamed into the brain from the Astral World, fully formed and autonomous.

You still assert that nothing is understood when that has been shown to be false. That something is not understood, however much that may be, does not mean that nothing is understood.

You claim that nothing is understood even while claiming that the brain is dumb while consciousness, being autonomous, is smart....which puts you into the category of knowing more than all the experts put together, because they don't claim know any such thing as autonomy of consciousness.

 

[untermensche]

That is a lie.

You do not understand the first thing about how a brain creates any experience.

It is absolute mystery.

That is what I tire of, lies.

That is a lie.

After over 30,000 posts you are still not tired enough of this place to quit and go somewhere else, which is unfortunate for the rest of us.

That is what I tire of, (your) lies.

No you are mistaken.

No human has the slightest idea how the activity of cells somehow results in conscious experience.

Nobody can even model "experience".

It is a complete and total mystery.

To prove me wrong all you have to do is show me how cellular activity results in conscious experience.

 

[untermensche]

It was my first word too.

Somehow some activity results in conscious experience.

But we have no idea what that activity is. We have no idea what it could be.

The ''hard problem'' being how a brain forms conscious experience.....

It is a hard problem.

It is total mystery.

Nobody has the slightest clue how it could happen.

We can't even begin to explain it.

The connection between brain activity and conscious experience is a complete blank.

To claim you know how the consciousness could work on the brain is ridiculous.

 

[fromderinside]

Similary?

Yes. You claimed one thing was similar to another.

Yet you do not even know what one of the things is.

You can look at subjective reports of experience but you cannot look at experience. You can look and look in the brain and you will not tell me where experience is or how it is being produced.

The similarity to which I referred was the similarity of a photon being processed using silver nitrate in a photo or a photon producing a pixel on a liquid crystal on a TV screen to the photon producing an representation in a human to producing the hue blue (670nm). That the human system transduction process includes reports only confirmations that the human does process the photon frequency faithfully. They are all the result of processes which are there to produce said representation.