Consciousness

[DBT]

The Whole Universe happens without control....

 

[untermensche]

The Whole Universe happens without control....

What do you call the "laws" of the Universe? What do you call forces? The Earth itself is only where it is because of very unforgiving controls.

No order can arise in the absence of controls.

A rock can't form without controls. A water molecule can't form without exacting and absolute external and internal controls.

And the brain cannot transform light energy into a presentation for consciousness without extremely precise controls. Many many controls.

You think control is unimportant because you know absolutely nothing about it.

And are too blind to understand the absolute need for many many controls.

 

[untermensche]

That a self-described anarchist thinks that things cannot just happen without control is fucking hilarious.

Another thing you know absolutely nothing about.

Anarchism is not anarchy.

Only the most uneducated think so.

 

[untermensche]

That of which you describe is evidence of malfunction. It can occur as a result of many conditions including brain damage, a stroke, genetic derived structure and function etc. Most studies of such brain behavior are the result of the study of abnormal conditions. So if you want to use a sick brain model go ahead. Some of my work centered around using ERPs as indices of hearing threshold in those who are unable to behaviorally respond. The derived indicators weren't sensitive enough for that purpose.

What?

This is as if you did not read a word I wrote.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2016/05/19/a-real-time-visualization-of-electrical-activity-in-the-brain-is-here-and-its-beautiful/#6c66c1ba4cca

That activity looks random and chaotic.

But to create a complex structured and consistently structured result takes incredibly intricate control.

That you think things can just happen without control is amazing.

There is no central controller. The closest you could hope for is Executive function, but that's not even close to what you believe....

There have to be millions and billions of controls for the activity in billions and trillions of elements to create something lasting with function.

I'm talking about controls inside cells. Or controls somehow external to cells.

A cell cannot behave as a reflex for there to be control. It must somehow take in data and make calculations and have varied results and actions as a result. It must have some mechanism of control over activity.

I am not talking about consciousness which only has control over certain things.

 

[bilby]

That a self-described anarchist thinks that things cannot just happen without control is fucking hilarious.

Another thing you know absolutely nothing about.

Anarchism is not anarchy.

Only the most uneducated think so.

I mentioned neither.

 

[untermensche]

That a self-described anarchist thinks that things cannot just happen without control is fucking hilarious.

Another thing you know absolutely nothing about.

Anarchism is not anarchy.

Only the most uneducated think so.

I mentioned neither.

Where did I say anything could happen without control?

What I have said is dictatorial control should be replaced by democratic control in human affairs.

This is twisted into all kinds of things by idiots.

That you try to shove comments about human affairs into a conversation about brain activity shows a lack of understanding about either.

 

[fromderinside]

Eyup. Though not nearly as bad as trying to fold debunked fantom psychobabble control constructs like synchronicity into a philosophy thread.

 

[bilby]

I mentioned neither.

Where did I say anything could happen without control?

What I have said is dictatorial control should be replaced by democratic control in human affairs.

This is twisted into all kinds of things by idiots.

I had noticed.

But you seem disinclined to stop.

That you try to shove comments about human affairs into a conversation about brain activity shows a lack of understanding about either.

I made no comment about human affairs. I simply observed that one of your many inconsistencies was particularly hilarious - which it is.

I am not arguing with you, nor debating you - that is pointless when ones opponent has an internally inconsistent position and no grasp of either the underlying facts, nor the ways in which logic might be applied to those facts.

I am laughing at you. Because your positions are fucking ridiculous.

 

[Kharakov]

I'm pretty sure if I taze your ass while you're in bed, it will result in consciousness. Ok, not you specifically, but a human.

So you think a taser will produce consciousness?

Like I said, not in you. But taze your average human male while they're in bed, pretty sure you're going to end up with someone who is conscious a few moments later.

Putting red pepper flakes in someone's mouth while they are asleep may also induce a conscious state.

 

[Kharakov]

The Whole Universe happens without control....

What do you call the "laws" of the Universe? What do you call forces? The Earth itself is only where it is because of very unforgiving controls.

Unforgiving controlls like the Punisher.

No order can arise in the absence of controls.

I have been quite out of controll drunk in the past, and amazingly, ordered another drink without getting thrown out of the bar.

A water molecule can't form without exacting and absolute external and internal controls.

So this is where you describe how my thoughts can't form without exacting and absolute controlls. You know, instead of smooth gradients made with The Absolute.

 

[untermensche]

Eyup. Though not nearly as bad as trying to fold debunked fantom psychobabble control constructs like synchronicity into a philosophy thread.

What do I mean by controls?

How do trillions of elements create the same thing, the same consciousness, day after day without controls?

Explain your irrational position. Your magical miraculous position where complex consistent order is achieved without controls.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm pretty sure if I taze your ass while you're in bed, it will result in consciousness. Ok, not you specifically, but a human.

So you think a taser will produce consciousness?

Like I said, not in you. But taze your average human male while they're in bed, pretty sure you're going to end up with someone who is conscious a few moments later.

Putting red pepper flakes in someone's mouth while they are asleep may also induce a conscious state.

Are you this dumb or drunk?

Exciting a consciousness is not creating one.

You're spewing childish nonsense.

 

[fromderinside]

What do I mean by controls?

How do trillions of elements create the same thing, the same consciousness, day after day without controls?

Explain your irrational position. Your magical miraculous position where complex consistent order is achieved without controls.

Well, for the most part it is the same brain with almost exactly the same elements with just a few additional tweeks, day after day, after day.

The controls are the brain physics and physical modifications over a lifetime in only one environment. When you look at the same rock you looked at ten years ago in the same place do you expect to be radically different. Ah, but because of wind rain, and other physical stresses it is a bit different.

Yes sir. As the example of the rock proves I give you the control. Physics , or, if you need more precision, biophysics.

You have no case for some magical thing to make humans different than Manta Rays. No mind. Just slightly different biophysics.

And just as weathering changes the rock slightly so to do sensations, actions, maturation, age, change the CNS over time.

-

 

[untermensche]

What do I mean by controls?

How do trillions of elements create the same thing, the same consciousness, day after day without controls?

Explain your irrational position. Your magical miraculous position where complex consistent order is achieved without controls.

Well, for the most part it is the same brain with almost exactly the same elements with just a few additional tweeks, day after day, after day.

You seem to somehow think conscious experience occurs only because of what a brain is.

It occurs because of what a brain is doing.

Consciousness occurs because of some kind of activity in a living organ.

The result of this activity is the same person from birth to death. A person with some consistencies that last for decades.

Any activity that results in a complex and consistent result MUST be highly controlled in some way.

That this idea seems to come from outer space to you merely shows how little you have satisfied yourself with for so long.

Tell me how any activity can result in a very complex and consistent result for decades without being highly controlled in some way?

Explain your magic brain that can achieve consistency and complexity without controls.

Even if we say a cell is merely a switch a bunch of switches need controls to achieve a complex and consistent result.

In a computer the controls are software and designed properties of processors. A brain does not have software. It is controlled in ways we do not understand at all.

 

[fromderinside]

Sayeth the lord "Ho Ho Ho". untermenche you deserve these for verily I say unto you blessed are the dumb for they seeeth as children.

 

[Kharakov]

I'm pretty sure if I taze your ass while you're in bed, it will result in consciousness. Ok, not you specifically, but a human.

So you think a taser will produce consciousness?

Like I said, not in you. But taze your average human male while they're in bed, pretty sure you're going to end up with someone who is conscious a few moments later.

Putting red pepper flakes in someone's mouth while they are asleep may also induce a conscious state.

Are you this dumb or drunk?

Probably.

Exciting a consciousness is not creating one.

So when someone bakes a cookie, they aren't creating a cookie since they didn't participate directly in nucleosynthesis of the various elements?

Would you say spacetime created the cookie, or electromagnetism? Maybe the whole infinite continuum?

 

[untermensche]

Sayeth the lord "Ho Ho Ho". untermenche you deserve these for verily I say unto you blessed are the dumb for they seeeth as children.

Your deep deep cognitive dissonance is noted.

Just explain how a consistent result from the activity of trillions of elements can occur without any control.

Explain your magic theories of magical order created without controls.

Explain yourself, don't make yourself look more stupid with your idiotic responses.

I know in your religion of brain activity you don't think you have to explain yourself.

But you do.

- - - Updated - - -

So you think a taser will produce consciousness?

Like I said, not in you. But taze your average human male while they're in bed, pretty sure you're going to end up with someone who is conscious a few moments later.

Putting red pepper flakes in someone's mouth while they are asleep may also induce a conscious state.

Are you this dumb or drunk?

Probably.

Exciting a consciousness is not creating one.

So when someone bakes a cookie, they aren't creating a cookie since they didn't participate directly in nucleosynthesis of the various elements?

Would you say spacetime created the cookie, or electromagnetism? Maybe the whole infinite continuum?

I always understand when children want to stop playing.

They start doing things like this.

You have run out of ideas.

Maybe someday you will have some.

 

[Subsymbolic]

What do I mean by controls?

How do trillions of elements create the same thing, the same consciousness, day after day without controls?

Explain your irrational position. Your magical miraculous position where complex consistent order is achieved without controls.

Well, for the most part it is the same brain with almost exactly the same elements with just a few additional tweeks, day after day, after day.

You seem to somehow think conscious experience occurs only because of what a brain is.

It occurs because of what a brain is doing.

Consciousness occurs because of some kind of activity in a living organ.

The result of this activity is the same person from birth to death. A person with some consistencies that last for decades.

Any activity that results in a complex and consistent result MUST be highly controlled in some way.

That this idea seems to come from outer space to you merely shows how little you have satisfied yourself with for so long.

Tell me how any activity can result in a very complex and consistent result for decades without being highly controlled in some way?

Explain your magic brain that can achieve consistency and complexity without controls.

Even if we say a cell is merely a switch a bunch of switches need controls to achieve a complex and consistent result.

In a computer the controls are software and designed properties of processors. A brain does not have software. It is controlled in ways we do not understand at all.

Thank you for the wonderful insight. For years I have struggled to understand the behaviour of water. How it knows precisely how to fill a depression to make a lake, spreading itself evenly across the surface, yet filling every nook and cranny, the planning necessary must be immense. Yet somehow lakes and seas respond to wind and weather to produce mathematically perfect responses, jump out of the way of thrown stones to avoid damage before enveloping them perfectly, and so on.

Now I realise that all of this must be highly controlled. I guess it must be the watersprites.

Or elves, it’s usually elves.

 

[beero1000]

You seem to somehow think conscious experience occurs only because of what a brain is.

It occurs because of what a brain is doing.

Consciousness occurs because of some kind of activity in a living organ.

The result of this activity is the same person from birth to death. A person with some consistencies that last for decades.

Any activity that results in a complex and consistent result MUST be highly controlled in some way.

That this idea seems to come from outer space to you merely shows how little you have satisfied yourself with for so long.

Tell me how any activity can result in a very complex and consistent result for decades without being highly controlled in some way?

Explain your magic brain that can achieve consistency and complexity without controls.

Even if we say a cell is merely a switch a bunch of switches need controls to achieve a complex and consistent result.

In a computer the controls are software and designed properties of processors. A brain does not have software. It is controlled in ways we do not understand at all.

Thank you for the wonderful insight. For years I have struggled to understand the behaviour of water. How it knows precisely how to fill a depression to make a lake, spreading itself evenly across the surface, yet filling every nook and cranny, the planning necessary must be immense. Yet somehow lakes and seas respond to wind and weather to produce mathematically perfect responses, jump out of the way of thrown stones to avoid damage before enveloping them perfectly, and so on.

Now I realise that all of this must be highly controlled. I guess it must be the watersprites.

Or elves, it’s usually elves.

 

[untermensche]

You seem to somehow think conscious experience occurs only because of what a brain is.

It occurs because of what a brain is doing.

Consciousness occurs because of some kind of activity in a living organ.

The result of this activity is the same person from birth to death. A person with some consistencies that last for decades.

Any activity that results in a complex and consistent result MUST be highly controlled in some way.

That this idea seems to come from outer space to you merely shows how little you have satisfied yourself with for so long.

Tell me how any activity can result in a very complex and consistent result for decades without being highly controlled in some way?

Explain your magic brain that can achieve consistency and complexity without controls.

Even if we say a cell is merely a switch a bunch of switches need controls to achieve a complex and consistent result.

In a computer the controls are software and designed properties of processors. A brain does not have software. It is controlled in ways we do not understand at all.

Thank you for the wonderful insight. For years I have struggled to understand the behaviour of water. How it knows precisely how to fill a depression to make a lake, spreading itself evenly across the surface, yet filling every nook and cranny, the planning necessary must be immense. Yet somehow lakes and seas respond to wind and weather to produce mathematically perfect responses, jump out of the way of thrown stones to avoid damage before enveloping them perfectly, and so on.

Now I realise that all of this must be highly controlled. I guess it must be the watersprites.

Or elves, it’s usually elves.

It sure is controlled. That is how order can come from it.

It is absolutely controlled by the forces of the universe and all the properties inherent to the molecules and particles that ultimately make up the molecules. The order in any molecule is highly and absolutely controlled. You should study about it some day.

Order without controls is religion.

It is idiocy if it is incredibly complicated and long lasting order without any controls involving the activity of trillions of elements.

And we will find idiots laughing at your ideas as if they have meaning.

 

[Subsymbolic]

You seem to somehow think conscious experience occurs only because of what a brain is.

It occurs because of what a brain is doing.

Consciousness occurs because of some kind of activity in a living organ.

The result of this activity is the same person from birth to death. A person with some consistencies that last for decades.

Any activity that results in a complex and consistent result MUST be highly controlled in some way.

That this idea seems to come from outer space to you merely shows how little you have satisfied yourself with for so long.

Tell me how any activity can result in a very complex and consistent result for decades without being highly controlled in some way?

Explain your magic brain that can achieve consistency and complexity without controls.

Even if we say a cell is merely a switch a bunch of switches need controls to achieve a complex and consistent result.

In a computer the controls are software and designed properties of processors. A brain does not have software. It is controlled in ways we do not understand at all.

Thank you for the wonderful insight. For years I have struggled to understand the behaviour of water. How it knows precisely how to fill a depression to make a lake, spreading itself evenly across the surface, yet filling every nook and cranny, the planning necessary must be immense. Yet somehow lakes and seas respond to wind and weather to produce mathematically perfect responses, jump out of the way of thrown stones to avoid damage before enveloping them perfectly, and so on.

Now I realise that all of this must be highly controlled. I guess it must be the watersprites.

Or elves, it’s usually elves.

It sure is controlled. That is how order can come from it.

It is absolutely controlled by the forces of the universe and all the properties inherent to the molecules and particles that ultimately make up the molecules. The order in any molecule is highly and absolutely controlled. You should study about it some day.

Order without controls is religion.

It is idiocy if it is incredibly complicated and long lasting order without any controls involving the activity of trillions of elements.

And we will find idiots laughing at your ideas as if they have meaning.

I'm sorry UM, I shouldn't have been sarcastic but that's just a really unhelpful way of talking or thinking about it. To say things like 'it is controlled' at best inserts teleology in precisely the wrong place and at worst implies a sense of some sort of outside agency which is simply not there. It's important to distinguish between actions and events and avoid language that implies action when only events are taking place.

With water it is less important, but when talking about brains, the chances of making category errors or inserting teleology where there isn't any becomes rather too high.

Given that, how about you explain what is going on in a pond? It doesn't have to be too deep: keep it periodic and nothing below London, but if you are going to say things like 'You should study about it some day.' then you really need to be able to demonstrate that your knowledge justifies your vaunt.