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Consciousness

I've said it several times now, I think you underestimate what we can investigate about consciousness. I don't know how much you've read on the subject. There is some pretty amazing science out there.

Suppose we want to study it objectively.

What are we studying?

What is consciousness objectively?

You don't seem to want to study or discuss consciousness, and appear to be satisfied with getting your kicks by negatively criticising everybody's views and efforts on the subject. AFAIAC the Wiki summary in the first five short paragraphs at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness is sufficient for a start from many points of view. Always providing that everyone realises that it, conciousness, is a dynamic equilibrium in a polyphasic system with many unknowns.

Now give us your idea of what conciousness is, as "succintly" as the one quoted in the link above. If you do not, then any discussion of the subject with you is a complete waste of time.
 
Years ago Roger Penrose took note that microtubules are small enough to be in the range of quantum effects. Therefore quantum effects are not ruled out in the origin of consciousness.
Quantum effects have a role in photosynthesis.

Substance dualism explains nothing.
 
I've said it several times now, I think you underestimate what we can investigate about consciousness. I don't know how much you've read on the subject. There is some pretty amazing science out there.

Suppose we want to study it objectively.

What are we studying?

What is consciousness objectively?

You don't seem to want to study or discuss consciousness, and appear to be satisfied with getting your kicks by negatively criticising everybody's views and efforts on the subject. AFAIAC the Wiki summary in the first five short paragraphs at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness is sufficient for a start from many points of view. Always providing that everyone realises that it, conciousness, is a dynamic equilibrium in a polyphasic system with many unknowns.

Now give us your idea of what conciousness is, as "succintly" as the one quoted in the link above. If you do not, then any discussion of the subject with you is a complete waste of time.

You don't seem to understand the question.

What is consciousness objectively does not mean what can it do.

It means how is it generated? Specifically. Not some general nothingness like, it is generated by some activity of the brain.
 
Do you mean something like "is it electromagnetic phenomena or spacetime matter interaction"?
 
Both of those constructs offer a basis for falsification. Whereas I choose to lift my arm is a description with an impossible to prove cause. The pretense is in your knowing that you choose to lift your arm is indeed what takes place.

There is no known electromagnetic phenomena that results in consciousness. Yes the statement is clearly false, as far as we know.
 
Both of those constructs offer a basis for falsification. Whereas I choose to lift my arm is a description with an impossible to prove cause. The pretense is in your knowing that you choose to lift your arm is indeed what takes place.

There is no known electromagnetic phenomena that results in consciousness. Yes the statement is clearly false, as far as we know.
I'm pretty sure if I taze your ass while you're in bed, it will result in consciousness. Ok, not you specifically, but a human.
 
Both of those constructs offer a basis for falsification. Whereas I choose to lift my arm is a description with an impossible to prove cause. The pretense is in your knowing that you choose to lift your arm is indeed what takes place.

There is no known electromagnetic phenomena that results in consciousness. Yes the statement is clearly false, as far as we know.
I'm pretty sure if I taze your ass while you're in bed, it will result in consciousness. Ok, not you specifically, but a human.

So you think a taser will produce consciousness?

Why start so low?

Why don't we say that tasers can produce demi-gods?
 
As I said, what consciousness 'is' and how it arises and from where or what is not fully known, yet. Imo, it is possible that there is some ingredient, perhaps quantum, or if not that then perhaps something else.

However, it can still be studied. We can know more about it. Imagine if a lump of something landed on earth from outer space. We might not know what it is, but we can weigh it, heat it, try to dissolve it, compare it to other stuff, see if it floats, how hard it is, etc etc. We can know a lot about it and even say a lot about what it's not.

In the same way we can investigate consciousness without having to know the final answer to 'what it is'.

And maybe that's what we should stick to here, because I doubt if any of us is going to discover the final explanation.

Another possible route is to hypothesise, so we could say, for example, if there is some quantum ingredient, what would this mean for consciousness? What would something like consciousness be like it this were the case? Would quantum effects be able to give free will? Etc.
Quantum mechanics is very well understood - indeed, it may be the best understood part of modern science, given that the predictions of theory match the observations in experiments so well.

And the answer to these questions is similarly well understood - There IS a quantum ingredient, because at the fundamental level EVERYTHING is quantum; It would be JUST LIKE IT IS, because it IS like that; And Quantum effects sum to classical physics at 'large' scales, where 'large' means 'bigger than molecules', so the behaviour of neurons can be explained without recourse to quantum physics, just as the behaviour of everything else at the cellular scale and above can.

The word 'quantum' is not a free pass to imagine some extra 'consciousness stuff' that couldn't arise from classically described neurons. It's a red herring.
At the moment, some things we can say with some confidence is that consciousness arises from or as a result of brain activity, that it varies in experienced intensity and can be absent or present, that it is only involved in some bodily activities and not others, and so on and so on.

The key bone of contention here, for Uttermensche, is substance dualism. So, we could ask, if substance dualism were true, what would that add to what we can know about consciousness? How does substance dualism explain consciousness, where it comes from, what constraints it might have, etc etc.

In a nutshell, so far, uttermensche is critiquing the non-substance-dualism case. I would be interested to see a case for substance dualism in order to explore how well it matches the things we can study about consciousness.

There is no case for substance dualism. It's pure magic; A supposition required by religions to make humans special and different, and to allow is to live on after our corporeal deaths. It's been completely and thoroughly rubbished, and is an hypothesis that is at odds with all of our experimental data, and that only has ONE SINGLE THING to recommend it - appeal to consequences. For without Substance Dualism, death is final, and heaven, hell, and reincarnation are exposed as nonsensical fictions.

Reality is under no obligation to pander to our desires or fears. untermensche wants substance dualism to be real, but he can't argue effectively for it, so he falls back on arguing against monism. It's easier to tear down other people's hypotheses than to defend your own.
 
Reality is under no obligation to pander to our desires or fears. untermensche wants substance dualism to be real, but he can't argue effectively for it, so he falls back on arguing against monism. It's easier to tear down other people's hypotheses than to defend your own.

bilby,

Of course the problems of materialist reduction don't support a dualist theory of reality, but without proven materialism we can't close the door on dualism.

The show goes on. :pigsfly:

A.
 
Quantum mechanics is very well understood - indeed, it may be the best understood part of modern science, given that the predictions of theory match the observations in experiments so well...

"Well understood" is a weasel phrase. It means nothing. The question is: How much is known and how much isn't? How much is still total mystery? You have no clue. And have no clue as to how to find out.

There are no quantum mechanical models of anything as complex as a neuron. The chemical properties of neurons are far from being fully understood no less the quantum properties. What is happening in the cell internally is only partially known.

Nothing is known about any quantum properties that might be involved in the production of consciousness.

Your childish dismissals are irrational and ignorant.
 
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Quantum mechanics is very well understood - indeed, it may be the best understood part of modern science, given that the predictions of theory match the observations in experiments so well...

"Well understood" is a weasel phrase. It means nothing. The question is: How much is known and how much isn't? How much is still total mystery? You have no clue. And have no clue as to how to find out.

There are no quantum mechanical models of anything as complex as a neuron. The chemical properties of neurons are far from being fully understood no less the quantum properties. What is happening in the cell internally is only partially known.

Nothing is known about any quantum properties that might be involved in the production of consciousness.

Your childish dismissals are irrational and ignorant.

Perhaps a little restraint on never and nothing said the philosopher with gated teeth.

OK. Explain why  Quantum neural network have been realized if there in no neuron quantum model.
 
Quantum mechanics is very well understood - indeed, it may be the best understood part of modern science, given that the predictions of theory match the observations in experiments so well...

"Well understood" is a weasel phrase. It means nothing. The question is: How much is known and how much isn't? How much is still total mystery? You have no clue. And have no clue as to how to find out.

There are no quantum mechanical models of anything as complex as a neuron. The chemical properties of neurons are far from being fully understood no less the quantum properties. What is happening in the cell internally is only partially known.

Nothing is known about any quantum properties that might be involved in the production of consciousness.

Your childish dismissals are irrational and ignorant.

Perhaps a little restraint on never and nothing said the philosopher with gated teeth.

OK. Explain why  Quantum neural network have been realized if there in no neuron quantum model.

I don't mistake wanting a model and working to get one with actually having a working model.

What predictions can we make from those models?

We don't even know everything that is going on in the cell. Saying a model can be built from ignorance is a lie.

You have to completely understand what something is doing internally to model it. Not just what happens externally as a result of internal activity.
 
You have to completely understand what something is doing internally to model it. Not just what happens externally as a result of internal activity.


Not really. Some auditory phenomena act like they were being processed through a Fourier Filter. We actually know enough about the auditory system and how it processes information to know that that isn't the case. Yet using such a filter in an auditory processing model mimics auditory system results quite well and it is a very economical model. So to with Laplace analyse for auditory signal envelope processing.

You just don't know enough about modelling or processes to understand the complex relations that exist between the two nor the way 'works like' tools can be applied.

As a student I actually modeled neural processing at the ear and produced results that looked just like those obtained by recording by only taking what was appearing as recorded output at each stage of transduction through to impulse production. 'Works like' is a very powerful way to model operator performance for instance. We can substitute capacitive storage and inductive filter equations for signature time constants for auditory processing from impulse through to continuous particular output.

Quite honestly if we only take output spike rates we can successfully model each stage of auditory output form every nucleus way station in the auditory system. Don;t even have to know how spikes are created nor sustained even though we have known that for about 70 years now.

If one looks across physical systems one can replace constants and times to use electrical current flow through a system of various wire diameters and produce water flow equations though pipes of differing sizes using the same basis equations. Even an elastic spring model can be used to model traffic variation a choke points in a freeway.

If they work the same way they usually can be modeled with the same eguations.

As far as I can tell the only situations where incomplete knowledge permits claiming something for nothing, like emergence, is inappropriate. Complete knowledge makes it obvious that if all interactions and attributes are known what is claimed emergent is reduced to determined.

Consciousness is system that can be treated "as like". It has served for subjective experience for millennia. We produce a system we know because it is what we experience. It is not as it really is which would probably take a more complete understanding of underlying factors. On the other hand we can model the neuron, neural networks, performance, prediction. approach and avoidance, et cetera, using models of what we know about the underlying structures and performance to build models we can test and verify whether what we know needs to be changed to produce better models or whether what we know is incomplete.

For instance we now know that the more or less uniform physical structure of cortex is used to take on tasks from other senses to produce working models of the world for individuals with loss of brain, tract, or receptor. We know people carry out localizing and object identifying when blind using tactile and auditory inputs. Now we know they do this by using visual cortex to accomplish these tasks using input from other senses.
 
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You have to completely understand what something is doing internally to model it. Not just what happens externally as a result of internal activity.

Not really. Some auditory phenomena act like they were being processed through a Fourier Filter...

Thanks for making my point.

You have some human invention, a human invented statistical method, and are trying to shove neuronal behavior into it. And if you can manipulate and manipulate, exclude a whole lot and pretend it is unimportant and get something kind of close you think you have discovered something.

You are not understanding the internal behavior of cells at all, which takes a lot more.
 
You didn't have a point.

Really. Your point is we can't do model it because we don't know everything about it. Not true. How do you think we know how to model generation of a neural pulse. We may not know from which neruons impulse energy was received but we do know it is propagated along the membrane to the axon hillock where it is integrated in a very specific way to produce an action potential. We know the nature of action potentials, the relation between pulse creation and propagation and the underlying principles of both. However we can model these with analogs very cheaply providing very accurate models which we can test to determine how and whether to modify our models or our understanding of underlying properties. We use almost any physical approach to meet requirements for increasing our knowledge about and how neurons function. We've done this since Sherrington invented the convenient synapse concept from which we eventually got us to understand neurotransmitter production transmission and uptake principles. Ferchrissake untermenche you are flotsam made up of jetsam wandering in a strange land.

Your know nothing assertions are really getting to be strange and scary.
 
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