Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

[Rhea]

It's not like that at the high schools where I live. An awful lot of girls at high school put it about openly.

I thought it was obvious but briefly, there are plenty high school girls dress as skanky ho's and act accordingly.

It would appear, from all the vidence available so far in this thread, that the odds are very high that you are completely wrong and don’t know what you’re talking about. That you are projecting your own issues and the HS girls are thinking/ doing nothng of the kind.

(It also reminds me of the old joke, “what’s the difference between a fun girl and a ‘skanky ho’? The fun girl will sleep with ayone. The ‘skanky ho’ will sleep with anyone but you.)”

 

[TSwizzle]

It would appear, from all the vidence available so far in this thread, that the odds are very high that you are completely wrong and don’t know what you’re talking about.

I am not using "evidence" in this thread, you are the one in the wrong, I do know what I am talking about.

 

[Toni]

It would appear, from all the vidence available so far in this thread, that the odds are very high that you are completely wrong and don’t know what you’re talking about.

I am not using "evidence" in this thread, you are the one in the wrong, I do know what I am talking about.

You definitely are not using evidence. Or “evidence.”

What magical powers do you possess that allow you to know what women want more than they know themselves?

 

[JohnG]

I think I have an average male libido - a pretty intense one when I was a teenager. An attractive girl is like a trigger in my brain, something happens. I am (embarrassingly) attracted to most of (not all) the typical things men are sexually attracted to in a women. My reasoning, aware brain is distracted by some other more primal part.

That being said, I learned at an early age to respect women (respect everyone) and that to be a slave to my libido would be a detriment to mine and others lives. I learned early to be the "master of my domain" so to speak.

But I know this - there are men of varying degrees of libido and men of varying degrees of self-control.

I don't have any answers, but I think it would be best if women understood that men are naturally sexually aggressive, and while most men are able to use basic common sense in social situations, there are a good number of men who just can't keep their shit together. We've all known them.

I do think culture, magazines, patriarchy, all play a role.

I don't really have a point, but I want to be more progressive on this issue because I think it's a problem and people (women) get hurt.

And no, I don't think a burka is the answer. Women should be able to express them selves however they want.

 

[bigfield]

1. Status (as you mention).
2. Peer approval or group bonding.
3. Sexual display.
4. Attracting men (not necessarily for sex or even romance).
5. Fun.
6. Self-image (dressing to please themselves).

"Attracting men" is never "Attracting any/all men", though.

We never do this to advertise consent to ANY/ALL men. That is never true. Given the number of men in a room, you can just be sure that whatever it is, it’s unlikely that it was for you. And even if it was for a guy instead of for self, it still doesn’t equal consent, even for that guy. It is much more likely to be for a date and conversation to deermine if it can grow into a relationship.

So for men: when you see a woman wearing sexy clothing but she isn't sending you any signals, that means she's probably sending signals to some other person, or perhaps no-one at all. But either way, if the display was meant for you, you'd know. Your interest is an unwanted side effect.

 

[bigfield]

When I was younger, I was convinced that none of the signals were intended for me. It must be frustrating for women when some men are too dumb to leave women alone, and some are too dumb to recognise when women are interested. A lot of people believe that men and women should not be socialised into gendered roles, but this is surely a case where teenage boys need to be taught what a man's role is and how to play it.

I don't have any answers, but I think it would be best if women understood that men are naturally sexually aggressive, and while most men are able to use basic common sense in social situations, there are a good number of men who just can't keep their shit together. We've all known them.

I think women understand "that men are naturally sexually aggressive" because they have defences against it.

I don't think we can make any progress telling women how to avoid or placate men. We do a lot of that already. At the same time, we have a laissez-faire approach to raising boys; they are pretty much left alone to figure out manhood for themselves, and some of them don't figure it out.

 

[bigfield]

We never do this to advertise consent to ANY/ALL men. That is never true. Given the number of men in a room, you can just be sure that whatever it is, it’s unlikely that it was for you. And even if it was for a guy instead of for self, it still doesn’t equal consent, even for that guy. It is much more likely to be for a date and conversation to deermine if it can grow into a relationship.

So for men: when you see a woman wearing sexy clothing but she isn't sending you any signals, that means she's probably sending signals to some other person, or perhaps no-one at all. But either way, if the display was meant for you, you'd know. Your interest is an unwanted side effect.

BTW this wasn't an attempt to "mansplain", although it kind of reads like it. I just understand this stuff in terms of reading signals rather than knowing someone else's mind.

 

[ruby sparks]

My objection to the term skanky ho is (a) that skanky implies smelly and (b) that ho means ho. Women or girls who are merely promiscuous should not be subject to pejoratives, and especially not inaccurate ones, any more than men or boys who are promiscuous, imo.

WTF does ‘skanky ho’ have to do with this topic?

I was replying to another poster's use of the term.

 

[ruby sparks]

I don’t understand why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain silent about why they behave as they do. Maybe you would care to offer some insight? Is it because men feel they have greater insight into the motivations and emotional lives of women than women do? Is it because men are reluctant to talk about their own emotional lives or why they do what they do?

I didn't say I was an expert. No one, of any gender, can fully read the mind of another person anyway and so one couldn't know in any particular case what the reason or reasons were for someone choosing to wear something or make themselves up in a certain way. I have helped raise two daughters to aldulthood though and both went through the teenage phase described in the OP, so I have some reasonably good secondary insights. For instance, both felt certain social pressures to dress the way described in the OP, though in the end both resisted them, especially the younger one, who is now, I am proud to say, a moderate feminist. The older one is no slouch in the gender issues department either, though I don't think she would self-identify as a feminist. She's generally sexually-oriented towards women anyway so dressing to impress the opposite sex was never her thing.

As to make up and certain other things being an aphrodisiac to men, this is supported by science, and is fairly obvious anyway.

For instance, why would any man wear white tube socks with sandals? Who, exactly is a man trying to attract with that look? Or with mutton chops? A beer belly? That eerie pale glow that comes from too much time in front of computer screens? Or is it that men cannot bear to consider that they are not at the center of any woman's every waking moment and every thought and motivation, however unconscious?

Imo, many men (and teenage boys) do not generally feel they need to go to such lengths as girls and women do to make themselves smart, presentable or attractive. There's probably a variety of reasons, but my guess is that one of them has to do with male privilege and the (in some ways discriminatory) expectations put on girls and women, including by advertising. That said, in recent times more of the same expectations and pressures are being put on men and boys. There is some truth in saying that traditionally (ie in more patriarchal days) it was the female of the human species that was 'supposed' to 'display' themselves in many ways, including in 'mating' situations (love, romance or sex). Boys and men tend to show off, if that's appropriate to what they're doing, in other ways.

Imo, having gone through my teenage years in the 1970's, things have gone backwards in this particular respect. I am not sure why. Girls then did not seem to go to the lengths that girls nowadays do and the sexes were less 'split' into two distinct 'appearances'. It's a pity.

 

[bigfield]

1. Status (as you mention).
2. Peer approval or group bonding.
3. Sexual display.
4. Attracting men (not necessarily for sex or even romance).
5. Fun.
6. Self-image (dressing to please themselves).

"Attracting men" is never "Attracting any/all men", though.

I re-read the thread again and realised that no-one has actually said otherwise. "Attracting men" doesn't really imply "any/all" men, and it was pointless to make the correction.

 

[ruby sparks]

"Attracting men" is never "Attracting any/all men", though.

Indeed. Which is what I meant when I said "Neither of course means that the girl or woman wants to have sex, and certainly not with just any man who happens to be aroused or attracted."

ETA: oh, I see you corrected that.

So for men: when you see a woman wearing sexy clothing but she isn't sending you any signals, that means she's probably sending signals to some other person, or perhaps no-one at all. But either way, if the display was meant for you, you'd know. Your interest is an unwanted side effect.

I think I agree with that.

However, the idea, the belief, mostly but not entirely among boys and men, that a girl or woman is dressing or is made up in a certain way is signalling that she's more open to everyone, including you, can lead to making the mistake that you are attractive to her in some way, that 'you' are 'what she wants' or that she is at least available for you to approach. As much as any other male, I probably fell prey to this myself when I was a teenager or young man. I think you said something similar. Those were the days when I could be prone to getting an erection even if the wind only changed direction slightly, never mind seeing a girl's cleavage.

And that is the other potential problem with teenage girls dressing the way described, and it's not the girls' fault. The boys don't know how to interpret it right. Possibly also girls' don't know just how sexual teenage boys minds can be. Some also say that increased access to online porn hasn't helped boys understand the opposite sex properly.

 

[Toni]

I don’t understand why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain silent about why they behave as they do. Maybe you would care to offer some insight? Is it because men feel they have greater insight into the motivations and emotional lives of women than women do? Is it because men are reluctant to talk about their own emotional lives or why they do what they do?

I didn't say I was an expert. No one, of any gender, can fully read the mind of another person anyway and so one couldn't know in any particular case what the reason or reasons were for someone choosing to wear something or make themselves up in a certain way. I have helped raise two daughters to aldulthood though and both went through the teenage phase described in the OP, so I have some reasonably good secondary insights. For instance, both felt certain social pressures to dress the way described in the OP, though in the end both resisted them, especially the younger one, who is now, I am proud to say, a moderate feminist. The older one is no slouch in the gender issues department either, though I don't think she would self-identify as a feminist. She's generally sexually-oriented towards women anyway so dressing to impress the opposite sex was never her thing.

As to make up and certain other things being an aphrodisiac to men, this is supported by science, and is fairly obvious anyway.

For instance, why would any man wear white tube socks with sandals? Who, exactly is a man trying to attract with that look? Or with mutton chops? A beer belly? That eerie pale glow that comes from too much time in front of computer screens? Or is it that men cannot bear to consider that they are not at the center of any woman's every waking moment and every thought and motivation, however unconscious?

Imo, many men (and teenage boys) do not generally feel they need to go to such lengths as girls and women do to make themselves smart, presentable or attractive. There's probably a variety of reasons, but my guess is that one of them has to do with male privilege and the (in some ways discriminatory) expectations put on girls and women, including by advertising. That said, more of the same expectations and pressures are being put on men and boys. There is some truth in saying that traditionally (ie in more patriarchal days) it was the female of the human species that was 'supposed' to 'display' themselves in many ways, including in 'mating' situations (love, romance or sex).

Imo, having been gone through my teenage years in the 1970's, things have gone backwards in this particular respect. I am not sure why. Girls then did not seem to go to the lengths that girls nowadays do and the sexes were less 'split' into two distinct 'appearances'. It's a pity.

No one is debating that (many straight) men respond to 'sexy' clothing and even makeup (although most men don't like obvious makeup in my experience).

What was being stated in the OP and by myself and others is that girls don't dress 'sexy' in order to elicit a sexual response from boys or men. Girls and women 'dress sexy' primarily for themselves and to get a positive response from their (female) friends.

As a former girl, now woman, I agree with the OP.

You say your daughters resisted the pressure to dress 'sexy.' Particularly the younger one, who, I am assuming is straight, but less so, the older one, who presumably was not trying to attract male attention. Who was exerting pressure on them? Boys? Or girls? I would bet money it was other girls, regardless of anybody's sexuality.

Go ahead and ask your wife or your daughters if they think (most) men have any idea what looks good for a woman who is picking out an outfit? Most women give up asking their husbands very early on.

As for whether how a girl or woman is dressed causing men or boys to lose self control, please note that I am not the only woman in this thread who has stated that she was not dressed 'sexy' in any respect when she was sexually assaulted.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think women understand "that men are naturally sexually aggressive" because they have defences against it.

Perhaps teenage and pubescent girls consciously understand this less than older girls and women.

- - - Updated - - -

I think I have an average male libido - a pretty intense one when I was a teenager. An attractive girl is like a trigger in my brain, something happens. I am (embarrassingly) attracted to most of (not all) the typical things men are sexually attracted to in a women. My reasoning, aware brain is distracted by some other more primal part.

That being said, I learned at an early age to respect women (respect everyone) and that to be a slave to my libido would be a detriment to mine and others lives. I learned early to be the "master of my domain" so to speak.

But I know this - there are men of varying degrees of libido and men of varying degrees of self-control.

I don't have any answers, but I think it would be best if women understood that men are naturally sexually aggressive, and while most men are able to use basic common sense in social situations, there are a good number of men who just can't keep their shit together. We've all known them.

I do think culture, magazines, patriarchy, all play a role.

I don't really have a point, but I want to be more progressive on this issue because I think it's a problem and people (women) get hurt.

And no, I don't think a burka is the answer. Women should be able to express them selves however they want.

Yup, imo.

 

[Toni]

"Attracting men" is never "Attracting any/all men", though.

Indeed. Which is what I meant when I said "Neither of course means that the girl or woman wants to have sex, and certainly not with just any man who happens to be aroused or attracted."

So for men: when you see a woman wearing sexy clothing but she isn't sending you any signals, that means she's probably sending signals to some other person, or perhaps no-one at all. But either way, if the display was meant for you, you'd know. Your interest is an unwanted side effect.

I think I agree with that.

However, the idea, the belief, mostly but not entirely among boys and men, that a girl or woman is dressing or is made up in a certain way is signalling that she's more open to everyone, including you, can lead to making the mistake that you are attractive to her in some way, that 'you' are 'what she wants' or that she is at least available for you to approach. As much as any other male, I probably fell prey to this myself when I was a teenager or young man. I think you said something similar. Those were the days when I could be prone to getting an erection even if the wind only changed direction slightly, never mind seeing a girl's cleavage.

And that is the other potential problem with teenage girls dressing the way described, and it's not the girls' fault. The boys don't know how to interpret it right. Possibly also girls' don't know just how sexual teenage boys minds can be. Some also say that increased access to online porn hasn't helped boys understand the opposite sex properly.

No, the problem is that boys don't know how to interpret it right or how to deal with their own sexual impulses. That is not the fault of the girls, who, as you say, are largely ignorant of the issue.

Online porn has not seemed to help. There are a number of surveys which conclude that teenage boys and even teenage girls do not expect girls or women to enjoy sex.

 

[ruby sparks]

No, the problem is that boys don't know how to interpret it right or how to deal with their own sexual impulses. That is not the fault of the girls, who, as you say, are largely ignorant of the issue.

Isn't that what I said?

Online porn has not seemed to help. There are a number of surveys which conclude that teenage boys and even teenage girls do not expect girls or women to enjoy sex.

I agree that online porn has probably (almost certainly) not helped.

I had not specifically read about the lack of expectation you describe. That's terrible, and so regressive. Do you by any chance have any links? I'm not doubting it by the way, I would just like to read the bad news for myself.

 

[Toni]

I think I have an average male libido - a pretty intense one when I was a teenager. An attractive girl is like a trigger in my brain, something happens. I am (embarrassingly) attracted to most of (not all) the typical things men are sexually attracted to in a women. My reasoning, aware brain is distracted by some other more primal part.

That being said, I learned at an early age to respect women (respect everyone) and that to be a slave to my libido would be a detriment to mine and others lives. I learned early to be the "master of my domain" so to speak.

But I know this - there are men of varying degrees of libido and men of varying degrees of self-control.

I don't have any answers, but I think it would be best if women understood that men are naturally sexually aggressive, and while most men are able to use basic common sense in social situations, there are a good number of men who just can't keep their shit together. We've all known them.

I do think culture, magazines, patriarchy, all play a role.

I don't really have a point, but I want to be more progressive on this issue because I think it's a problem and people (women) get hurt.

And no, I don't think a burka is the answer. Women should be able to express them selves however they want.

That is all about MEN and boys. It's not at all about how girls and women think or feel.

And nice of you to not advocate for burkas.

Yes, there are men who can't keep their shit together. Those men also can' keep their shit together if the girl is wearing a baggy turtleneck. A lot of boys/men not being able to keep their shit together really has to do with impressing other boys/men. Boys/men need to learn to step up and shut down those guys who behave so inappropriately.

 

[ruby sparks]

No one is debating that (many straight) men respond to 'sexy' clothing and even makeup (although most men don't like obvious makeup in my experience).

What was being stated in the OP and by myself and others is that girls don't dress 'sexy' in order to elicit a sexual response from boys or men. Girls and women 'dress sexy' primarily for themselves and to get a positive response from their (female) friends.

As a former girl, now woman, I agree with the OP.

Sure. But can even you really speak for what other women's motivations are? You may be of the same sex, but another mind is still another mind and to an extent you have to interpret another person in many of the same ways that any person has to interpret another person.

I tend to agree that teenage girls especially, or most/many of them anyway, don't dress and make up primarily to attract sexual attention. Admiration, perhaps yes, including from the opposite sex (if they are straight) and even then that is only one of a number of reasons, which may be in play or not in play in any one individual or situation.

You say your daughters resisted the pressure to dress 'sexy.' Particularly the younger one, who, I am assuming is straight, but less so, the older one, who presumably was not trying to attract male attention. Who was exerting pressure on them? Boys? Or girls? I would bet money it was other girls, regardless of anybody's sexuality.

It was probably mostly other girls, during their teenage years. Culturally there may have been other influences, such as advertising.

Go ahead and ask your wife or your daughters if they think (most) men have any idea what looks good for a woman who is picking out an outfit? Most women give up asking their husbands very early on.

That's often true. However, most men will know what looks good to them, to the man.

As for whether how a girl or woman is dressed causing men or boys to lose self control, please note that I am not the only woman in this thread who has stated that she was not dressed 'sexy' in any respect when she was sexually assaulted.

I don't think anyone has suggested that how a woman is dressed is necessarily, of itself, 'causing men to lose self control'. Some men who lack self-control may act inappropriately to certain stimuli though, but by and large the problem there is the lack of self-control. Lack of self control is one of the identified risk factors for toxic masculinity.

ETA: and as you say, another factor is the peer pressure on boys to display certain behaviours in front of other boys (or men).

 

[Toni]

1. Status (as you mention).
2. Peer approval or group bonding.
3. Sexual display.
4. Attracting men (not necessarily for sex or even romance).
5. Fun.
6. Self-image (dressing to please themselves).

"Attracting men" is never "Attracting any/all men", though.

I re-read the thread again and realised that no-one has actually said otherwise. "Attracting men" doesn't really imply "any/all" men, and it was pointless to make the correction.

It is really about looking good in the eyes of the girl/woman and not in the eyes of the men.

There was a period of time when I never saw my daughter in anything other than a pair of dirty baggy sweatpants, her brother's galoshes and a very....unisex looking boxy and ill fitting oversize winter jacket, worn over a baggy sweatshirt worn over a t-shirt. Usually with a pretty ugly old man's winter hat with ear flaps. It was winter, sure and cold. No make up, ever. Hair not styled and not always clean. I asked her about it and she said it didn't matter. She couldn't go out with her friends even dressed like that without getting hit on by random guys. Frankly, she was always disgusted by the unwanted attention she got from guys and men. We once went on a family vacation to a beach and she hated every second of it. She couldn't go anywhere--even dressed in a long skirt and a t-shirt accompanied by her mother (me) without getting cat calls, etc. Yes, she's a pretty girl but it was ridiculous.

Heck, I used to get cat-calls when I was waiting for the bus to take me to work--while I was immensely pregnant. A dirty old man I worked with tried to pull me into his lap and kiss me --at work!--while I was about 8 months pregnant. Note: on my very best day ever, I am barely average looking and even immensely pregnant, I barely filled a B cup.

I can say definitively that girls and women sometimes dress to discourage attention from guys. And that girls and women dress in order to feel good themselves because they look pretty and sexy and fashionable in the eyes of themselves and their female friends.

 

[ruby sparks]

It would appear, from all the vidence available so far in this thread, that the odds are very high that you are completely wrong and don’t know what you’re talking about.

I am not using "evidence" in this thread, you are the one in the wrong, I do know what I am talking about.

What is it that you know though? Are those girls smelly, and literally prostitutes? If not, then why skanky ho?

 

[ruby sparks]

Good video which illustrates some of your points well.