Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

[DrZoidberg]

But what struck me as I enjoyed how happy their smiles were, was that I knew that not one of them, not a single one, was dressed this way to attract sex.

Meh. I think they are. They might not understand it themselves. Their bodies are raging with confusing hormones remote controlling them towards the cock. That's why it's so important not to sleep with teenagers even if they consent to sex. The chance that they understand what they themselves want is pretty slim.

Teenagers are typically hyper sexualised in their expression. Ie, how they chose to present themselves. At no point later in their lives will it be as important to them how sexy/pretty they are. For teenagers, looks (and to be sexually desired) is everything. Because they don't really have anything else with which to attract mates/be popular.

Teenage girls aren't passive innocent little flowers. They're sex missiles cruising towards the nearest penis that says anything kind to them, regardless if that's what they really want. Which is why teen pregnancies skyrocket when adults try to push abstinence.

There's a reason, in our culture, we have an attitude of trying to protect teenagers from what they want. Teenage girls rushing into sex willy nilly will never end well. Which is why sex education is so important. Teenage sexual hormones is like a force of nature. If they're attractive at all they're going to get laid. All the adults can do is to help them deal with the inevitable emotional carnage.

To add to the confusion women also social punish each other for being sexualised in their expression (slut shaming). It's really not easy being a teenager. Not for anyone.

And it is certain that some people would look at the same innocent pictures and duck-lip poses and think, “they are asking for it.”

Yeah, but those people are rapists. So their opinions doesn't count.

 

[bigfield]

I re-read the thread again and realised that no-one has actually said otherwise. "Attracting men" doesn't really imply "any/all" men, and it was pointless to make the correction.

It is really about looking good in the eyes of the girl/woman and not in the eyes of the men.

OK, but why does "looking good in the eyes of the girl/woman" resemble a display of sexual fitness/availability?

There was a period of time when I never saw my daughter in anything other than a pair of dirty baggy sweatpants, her brother's galoshes and a very....unisex looking boxy and ill fitting oversize winter jacket, worn over a baggy sweatshirt worn over a t-shirt. Usually with a pretty ugly old man's winter hat with ear flaps. It was winter, sure and cold. No make up, ever. Hair not styled and not always clean. I asked her about it and she said it didn't matter. She couldn't go out with her friends even dressed like that without getting hit on by random guys. Frankly, she was always disgusted by the unwanted attention she got from guys and men. We once went on a family vacation to a beach and she hated every second of it. She couldn't go anywhere--even dressed in a long skirt and a t-shirt accompanied by her mother (me) without getting cat calls, etc. Yes, she's a pretty girl but it was ridiculous.

I understand that. Men don't just stop finding a woman attractive because she isn't made up, and men don't read anything into a woman's clothing. Men only blame a woman's clothing as a post facto rationalisation of their impulsive behaviour.

Heck, I used to get cat-calls when I was waiting for the bus to take me to work--while I was immensely pregnant. A dirty old man I worked with tried to pull me into his lap and kiss me --at work!--while I was about 8 months pregnant. Note: on my very best day ever, I am barely average looking and even immensely pregnant, I barely filled a B cup.

I'm not sure what to take away from that anecdote.

I can say definitively that girls and women sometimes dress to discourage attention from guys. And that girls and women dress in order to feel good themselves because they look pretty and sexy and fashionable in the eyes of themselves and their female friends.

Why do women dress sexy for the sake of their female friends? Why do (straight) women care how sexy their girlfriends look?

 

[ruby sparks]

OK, but why does "looking good in the eyes of the girl/woman" resemble a display of sexual fitness/availability?

Maybe because in many instances it's both?

Why do women dress sexy for the sake of their female friends? Why do (straight) women care how sexy their girlfriends look?

Probably a variety of reasons. Peer pressure might be one.

Not forgetting that they may not be dressing sexy for the sake of their female friends.

'Sexy' and 'looking good' probably overlap.

ETA: whoops, I mistakenly initially thought you were replying to me, not toni.

 

[Toni]

OK, but why does "looking good in the eyes of the girl/woman" resemble a display of sexual fitness/availability?

I'm not sure that it does. Clothing is used for a lot of purposes aside from protection from the elements. It conveys status, and purpose. As it does for men.

Most people appreciate beauty and symmetry and proportion. Health and fitness are seen as attractive in ways that are not necessarily sexual. Youth is seen as attractive.

I understand that. Men don't just stop finding a woman attractive because she isn't made up, and men don't read anything into a woman's clothing. Men only blame a woman's clothing as a post facto rationalisation of their impulsive behaviour.

I agree with the first part. The second part--I agree per my own experiences but the men in this thread are saying differently: that girls and women wearing certain clothing is done to appear sexy to men, to signal sexual availability (however unconscious--or conscious if you are TSwizzle). In fact, you pretty much say the same thing above.

Heck, I used to get cat-calls when I was waiting for the bus to take me to work--while I was immensely pregnant. A dirty old man I worked with tried to pull me into his lap and kiss me --at work!--while I was about 8 months pregnant. Note: on my very best day ever, I am barely average looking and even immensely pregnant, I barely filled a B cup.

I'm not sure what to take away from that anecdote.

It doesn't matter what a girl or woman wears or how she dresses: some men will simply use the fact that she exists in order to justify their own attempts to gain sexual access.

Why do women dress sexy for the sake of their female friends? Why do (straight) women care how sexy their girlfriends look?

As with men, women dress in accordance to the expectations of their peers, and in accordance with the occasion and needs of the occasion. Girls/women will often talk with one another to coordinate outfits, so that they 'fit in' with one another and also to help each other navigate the social expectations. A girl or woman wearing a beautifully tailored business suit to a gala or to a sporting event would be seen as being out of place, of not fitting the occasion. A woman wearing a ball gown to a track meet or the grocery store would not attract positive attention, no matter how lovely she looked. A woman wearing either a track suit or a gown with a plunging neckline would garner a great deal of disapproval at a funeral or a child's baptism, for example.

Teenage girls do not define 'sexy' the way that you are defining sexy. To a teenage girl, especially a younger teenager, 'sexy' means looking good, looking pretty. It may or may not have to do with wanting attention from boys/men, either a particular individual or boys/men in general. To a 14 or 15 year old girl, dressing in a high neck gown with long sleeves and a low hemline (singly or all together) is like dressing like her mother or grandmother: not what she wants to do. She wants to look young (as she is) but not childish or babyish.

Hemlines and necklines also convey formality. In my area, it is customary for girls to wear shorter hemlines and higher necklines to less formal fall dances; to the spring formal, almost every girl will wear a long dress, with the hemline to the ground. Winter dances are somewhere in between: most wear longer hemlines but there are more shorter dresses than in the spring time. Fabric choice as well as ornamentation also convey formality of the occasion.

Girls want to 'look sexy' but not sexual. They want to look mature and grown up--but still young and fresh. They want to fit in but still look uniquely themselves.

Please note that some actresses and celebrities who are known to be lesbian dress in very sexy gowns. Some actresses and celebrities known to be straight dress much more conservatively, much more covered up.

 

[Toni]

But what struck me as I enjoyed how happy their smiles were, was that I knew that not one of them, not a single one, was dressed this way to attract sex.

Meh. I think they are. They might not understand it themselves. Their bodies are raging with confusing hormones remote controlling them towards the cock. That's why it's so important not to sleep with teenagers even if they consent to sex. The chance that they understand what they themselves want is pretty slim.

Teenagers are typically hyper sexualised in their expression. Ie, how they chose to present themselves. At no point later in their lives will it be as important to them how sexy/pretty they are. For teenagers, looks (and to be sexually desired) is everything. Because they don't really have anything else with which to attract mates/be popular.

Teenage girls aren't passive innocent little flowers. They're sex missiles cruising towards the nearest penis that says anything kind to them, regardless if that's what they really want. Which is why teen pregnancies skyrocket when adults try to push abstinence.

There's a reason, in our culture, we have an attitude of trying to protect teenagers from what they want. Teenage girls rushing into sex willy nilly will never end well. Which is why sex education is so important. Teenage sexual hormones is like a force of nature. If they're attractive at all they're going to get laid. All the adults can do is to help them deal with the inevitable emotional carnage.

To add to the confusion women also social punish each other for being sexualised in their expression (slut shaming). It's really not easy being a teenager. Not for anyone.

And it is certain that some people would look at the same innocent pictures and duck-lip poses and think, “they are asking for it.”

Yeah, but those people are rapists. So their opinions doesn't count.

Of course you think you know what is in the hearts and minds of young girls you haven't met.

 

[ruby sparks]

Most people appreciate beauty and symmetry and proportion. Health and fitness are seen as attractive in ways that are not necessarily sexual. Youth is seen as attractive.

To butt in again...that's a good point, imo, about symmetry, proportion, health and fitness all being aesthetically pleasing and desirable for reasons that are not sexual.

I would just throw in as a side item though that psychologically (not necessarily consciously) youth (and health and physical fitness and indeed other bodily proportions) in women, are also associated, in the brains of straight males, with her being fertile and/or a potentially good mate and childbearing mother for one's mini-me, so there is a sexual/reproductive component to even that. In general terms I mean , not necessarily in an individual circumstance.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Of course you think you know what is in the hearts and minds of young girls you haven't met.

Sometimes you say things without thinking it through first.

I also know that the other side of the the sun is as warm as this side. I know that gravity works the same all over the universe. But it's not just reading studies, (it's a well studied subject). It's also anecdotal evidence. As a man I've been in relationships with women who have told me these things. Just like straight men know more about how vaginas normally look like, than straight women, because we will have a much bigger sample size. Not to mention having sex with teenage girls once upon a time. Men also talk with each other.

 

[bigfield]

OK, but why does "looking good in the eyes of the girl/woman" resemble a display of sexual fitness/availability?

I'm not sure that it does. Clothing is used for a lot of purposes aside from protection from the elements. It conveys status, and purpose. As it does for men.

Most people appreciate beauty and symmetry and proportion. Health and fitness are seen as attractive in ways that are not necessarily sexual. Youth is seen as attractive.

Beauty, symmetry, health, fitness and youth all signal reproductive fitness. That's why we are wired to find those things attractive in the first place.

But I asked you a loaded question, and since you disagree with the premise, I'll withdraw the question.

I agree with the first part. The second part--I agree per my own experiences but the men in this thread are saying differently: that girls and women wearing certain clothing is done to appear sexy to men, to signal sexual availability (however unconscious--or conscious if you are TSwizzle). In fact, you pretty much say the same thing above.

I think we're capable of analysing women's intentions from our keyboards, but men aren't rational about what they are seeing while it is actually happening. In fact, it's true for humans in general that most of our decisions are automatic responses.

Heck, I used to get cat-calls when I was waiting for the bus to take me to work--while I was immensely pregnant. A dirty old man I worked with tried to pull me into his lap and kiss me --at work!--while I was about 8 months pregnant. Note: on my very best day ever, I am barely average looking and even immensely pregnant, I barely filled a B cup.

I'm not sure what to take away from that anecdote.

It doesn't matter what a girl or woman wears or how she dresses: some men will simply use the fact that she exists in order to justify their own attempts to gain sexual access.

Thanks for explaining. That's getting too far off topic for my interest, though.

Why do women dress sexy for the sake of their female friends? Why do (straight) women care how sexy their girlfriends look?

As with men, women dress in accordance to the expectations of their peers, and in accordance with the occasion and needs of the occasion. Girls/women will often talk with one another to coordinate outfits, so that they 'fit in' with one another and also to help each other navigate the social expectations.

Where does the social expectation to be sexy come from? The obvious guess is that men set the expectation, but you already said that women don't dress to look good in men's eyes.

Teenage girls do not define 'sexy' the way that you are defining sexy. To a teenage girl, especially a younger teenager, 'sexy' means looking good, looking pretty. It may or may not have to do with wanting attention from boys/men, either a particular individual or boys/men in general. To a 14 or 15 year old girl, dressing in a high neck gown with long sleeves and a low hemline (singly or all together) is like dressing like her mother or grandmother: not what she wants to do. She wants to look young (as she is) but not childish or babyish.

Hemlines and necklines also convey formality. In my area, it is customary for girls to wear shorter hemlines and higher necklines to less formal fall dances; to the spring formal, almost every girl will wear a long dress, with the hemline to the ground. Winter dances are somewhere in between: most wear longer hemlines but there are more shorter dresses than in the spring time. Fabric choice as well as ornamentation also convey formality of the occasion.

Girls want to 'look sexy' but not sexual. They want to look mature and grown up--but still young and fresh. They want to fit in but still look uniquely themselves.

Please note that some actresses and celebrities who are known to be lesbian dress in very sexy gowns. Some actresses and celebrities known to be straight dress much more conservatively, much more covered up.

I was asking about women, not teenage girls. Could you give the explanation for adult women?

 

[southernhybrid]

Let's just put it very simply. Teenage girls and women don't need to dress sexy to attract men. Heterosexual men are attracted to us because we are women, not because of the way we dress. There may be a small minority of females who think they need to dress a certain way to attract men, but for the most part, it never enters our minds that we are dressing a certain way to attract men.

Several years ago, I was at a restaurant in Florida, and there was a large group of young Muslim women at a neighboring table. They were covered from head to toe, but they all looked beautiful. They wore different colors and patterns, along with their headscarves. Most of them had on makeup. I seriously doubt that pleasing or attracting men was on their minds when they put together the lovely clothing, that met the requirements of their culture. They got my attention because from a woman's perspective, they looked stunning, not sexy. Women dress to establish a style that pleases themselves. it might conform to their culture or to gain the acceptance of their female friends as well. But, I feel confident in saying that with very few exceptions, women don't dress to attract men. We usually get more attention from men that we want or need.

Of course there are times and places where women dress in order not to attract too much attention based on how they dress. A single young woman probably isn't going to wear a low cut dress and high heels if she's going to the grocery store by herself. But, when women get together with friends or want to dress up, getting the attention of men rarely enters their minds. I've participated in this thread because it's bothered me my entire life that some men think we dress to please them. Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

 

[JohnG]

I think I have an average male libido - a pretty intense one when I was a teenager. An attractive girl is like a trigger in my brain, something happens. I am (embarrassingly) attracted to most of (not all) the typical things men are sexually attracted to in a women. My reasoning, aware brain is distracted by some other more primal part.

That being said, I learned at an early age to respect women (respect everyone) and that to be a slave to my libido would be a detriment to mine and others lives. I learned early to be the "master of my domain" so to speak.

But I know this - there are men of varying degrees of libido and men of varying degrees of self-control.

I don't have any answers, but I think it would be best if women understood that men are naturally sexually aggressive, and while most men are able to use basic common sense in social situations, there are a good number of men who just can't keep their shit together. We've all known them.

I do think culture, magazines, patriarchy, all play a role.

I don't really have a point, but I want to be more progressive on this issue because I think it's a problem and people (women) get hurt.

And no, I don't think a burka is the answer. Women should be able to express them selves however they want.

That is all about MEN and boys. It's not at all about how girls and women think or feel.

And nice of you to not advocate for burkas.

Yes, there are men who can't keep their shit together. Those men also can' keep their shit together if the girl is wearing a baggy turtleneck. A lot of boys/men not being able to keep their shit together really has to do with impressing other boys/men. Boys/men need to learn to step up and shut down those guys who behave so inappropriately.

Yes, I am speaking from a male point of view. My burka comment was to avoid a smart ass comment to my statement. What I am saying is that it is up to male culture to sort this out. As you say - step up and shut down inappropriate behaviour.

 

[ruby sparks]

Let's just put it very simply. Teenage girls and women don't need to dress sexy to attract men. Heterosexual men are attracted to us because we are women, not because of the way we dress. There may be a small minority of females who think they need to dress a certain way to attract men, but for the most part, it never enters our minds that we are dressing a certain way to attract men.

Several years ago, I was at a restaurant in Florida, and there was a large group of young Muslim women at a neighboring table. They were covered from head to toe, but they all looked beautiful. They wore different colors and patterns, along with their headscarves. Most of them had on makeup. I seriously doubt that pleasing or attracting men was on their minds when they put together the lovely clothing, that met the requirements of their culture. They got my attention because from a woman's perspective, they looked stunning, not sexy. Women dress to establish a style that pleases themselves. it might conform to their culture or to gain the acceptance of their female friends as well. But, I feel confident in saying that with very few exceptions, women don't dress to attract men. We usually get more attention from men that we want or need.

Of course there are times and places where women dress in order not to attract too much attention based on how they dress. A single young woman probably isn't going to wear a low cut dress and high heels if she's going to the grocery store by herself. But, when women get together with friends or want to dress up, getting the attention of men rarely enters their minds. I've participated in this thread because it's bothered me my entire life that some men think we dress to please them. Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

I agree with everything you said....but, at the same time.....women, often, do dress to appeal to men (or a particular man). There's no getting around it. The problem in many ways is men thinking that that's either the only reason (as in the video toni posted) or that they are that man or that the woman wants something she doesn't necessarily want (sex for example, or even just to be 'chatted up'). No, I am not a woman, but equally you are not other women that are not you, and I have sisters I am close to and grew up with, I've had girlfriends, I have a wife, I had a mum, aunts, nieces, female cousins, many close females friends, plus, I can google stuff like, "do young women dress to attract men" or just google generally and read a variety of opinions.

Also, while it's true that women don't need to dress a certain way to be attractive to men, and that men's tastes will differ, heterosexual men will, by and large, be more attracted to a woman if she dresses a certain way. That said, most of us don't go just by attire and make up, or even physical looks. But initially, at first visual impression.......we almost can't help it, the sense of attraction I mean.

 

[bigfield]

Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

I can't accept it until it makes sense to me.

 

[ruby sparks]

Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

I can't accept it until it makes sense to me.

By saying, "some men think we dress to please them" southerhybrid may have meant that some (hetero) men think that is the only or main reason. Which imo is fair enough. Because it often, possibly/probably mostly, isn't.

 

[thebeave]

Let's just put it very simply. Teenage girls and women don't need to dress sexy to attract men. Heterosexual men are attracted to us because we are women, not because of the way we dress. There may be a small minority of females who think they need to dress a certain way to attract men, but for the most part, it never enters our minds that we are dressing a certain way to attract men.

Several years ago, I was at a restaurant in Florida, and there was a large group of young Muslim women at a neighboring table. They were covered from head to toe, but they all looked beautiful. They wore different colors and patterns, along with their headscarves. Most of them had on makeup. I seriously doubt that pleasing or attracting men was on their minds when they put together the lovely clothing, that met the requirements of their culture. They got my attention because from a woman's perspective, they looked stunning, not sexy. Women dress to establish a style that pleases themselves. it might conform to their culture or to gain the acceptance of their female friends as well. But, I feel confident in saying that with very few exceptions, women don't dress to attract men. We usually get more attention from men that we want or need.

Of course there are times and places where women dress in order not to attract too much attention based on how they dress. A single young woman probably isn't going to wear a low cut dress and high heels if she's going to the grocery store by herself. But, when women get together with friends or want to dress up, getting the attention of men rarely enters their minds. I've participated in this thread because it's bothered me my entire life that some men think we dress to please them. Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

I agree with everything you said....but, at the same time.....women, often, do dress to appeal to men (or a particular man). There's no getting around it. The problem in many ways is men thinking that that's either the only reason (as in the video toni posted) or that they are that man or that the woman wants something she doesn't necessarily want (sex for example, or even just to be 'chatted up'). No, I am not a woman, but equally you are not other women that are not you, and I have sisters I am close to and grew up with, a wife, I had a mum, aunts, nieces, female cousins, many close females friends, plus, I can google stuff like, "do young women dress to attract men".

Also, while it's true that women don't need to dress a certain way to be attractive to men, and that men's tastes will differ, heterosexual men will, by and large, be more attracted to a woman is she dresses a certain way. We almost can't help it.

Found this article that says women dress more sexy when they're at the peak of their fertility cycle. This seems to suggest that, in some cases anyway, it is done for sexual mating purposes, but that its subtle and subconscious, and perhaps women are not fully aware that they are doing it or why. Hence, why we see a lot of denial here about it.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167208323103

The authors tested the prediction that women prefer clothing that is more revealing and sexy when fertility is highest within the ovulatory cycle. Eighty-eight women reported to the lab twice: once on a low-fertility day of the cycle and once on a high-fertility day (confirmed using hormone tests). In each session, participants posed for full-body photographs in the clothing they wore to the lab, and they drew illustrations to indicate an outfit they would wear to a social event that evening. Although each data source supported the prediction, the authors found the most dramatic changes in clothing choice in the illustrations. Ovulatory shifts in clothing choice were moderated by sociosexuality, attractiveness, relationship status, and relationship satisfaction. Sexually unrestricted women, for example, showed greater shifts in preference for revealing clothing worn to the laboratory near ovulation. The authors suggest that clothing preference shifts could reflect an increase in female—female competition near ovulation.

I'd be interested to read the full study, but its behind a paywall.

 

[bigfield]

I can google stuff like, "do young women dress to attract men" and read a variety of opinions.

Good point. If women don't dress to attract men then why are women writing advice on how to dress to attract men?

 

[ruby sparks]

Found this article that says women dress more sexy when they're at the peak of their fertility cycle. This seems to suggest that, in some cases anyway, it is done for sexual mating purposes, but that its subtle and subconscious, and perhaps women are not fully aware that they are doing it or why. Hence, why we see a lot of denial here about it.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167208323103

The authors tested the prediction that women prefer clothing that is more revealing and sexy when fertility is highest within the ovulatory cycle. Eighty-eight women reported to the lab twice: once on a low-fertility day of the cycle and once on a high-fertility day (confirmed using hormone tests). In each session, participants posed for full-body photographs in the clothing they wore to the lab, and they drew illustrations to indicate an outfit they would wear to a social event that evening. Although each data source supported the prediction, the authors found the most dramatic changes in clothing choice in the illustrations. Ovulatory shifts in clothing choice were moderated by sociosexuality, attractiveness, relationship status, and relationship satisfaction. Sexually unrestricted women, for example, showed greater shifts in preference for revealing clothing worn to the laboratory near ovulation. The authors suggest that clothing preference shifts could reflect an increase in female—female competition near ovulation.

I'd be interested to read the full study, but its behind a paywall.

I have read stuff like that, including papers, yes. I think it's valid and correct, as far as it applies.

Personally, I'm not so much seeing denial of that, I'm more seeing something else, countering the idea that women normally dress a certain way for only or mainly that reason.

- - - Updated - - -

If women don't dress to attract men then why are women writing advice on how to dress to attract men?

Because some of them sometimes do.

Plus the commercial/consumerist angle. Don't forget that there is a consumerist 'machine' out there that tries to get us all, men and women, to buy stuff, to arguably imo, not be happy with ourselves as we are without the stuff. This wasn't nearly so bad, even though it was there, 'back in my day'. Nowadays it's gone into overdrive, imo. Also, most online articles are paid for by ads, and I'd be unsurprised if in some cases the attire recommended is product placement.

 

[Toni]

Of course you think you know what is in the hearts and minds of young girls you haven't met.

Sometimes you say things without thinking it through first.

I also know that the other side of the the sun is as warm as this side. I know that gravity works the same all over the universe. But it's not just reading studies, (it's a well studied subject). It's also anecdotal evidence. As a man I've been in relationships with women who have told me these things. Just like straight men know more about how vaginas normally look like, than straight women, because we will have a much bigger sample size. Not to mention having sex with teenage girls once upon a time. Men also talk with each other.

Wow. Men are mindreaders. Who knew? One would think they'd quit doing things to piss their wives and girlfriends off then....Since you say you know what women and girls do a half a world away, ones you've never met than I will take it on faith that you know exactly what I am thinking now.

First of all, very few men outside of the world of gynecology actually do know what a vagina looks like. You probably think that the pudendum and labia major and labia minor are the vagina. They are not.

I'm pretty well acquainted with what dicks look like, though.

 

[ruby sparks]

Here's the top link I got when I googled the phrase I mentioned:

16 Clothing Items Women Wear To Drive Men Wild
https://www.thetalko.com/16-clothing-items-women-wear-to-drive-men-wild/

 

[DrZoidberg]

Let's just put it very simply. Teenage girls and women don't need to dress sexy to attract men. Heterosexual men are attracted to us because we are women, not because of the way we dress. There may be a small minority of females who think they need to dress a certain way to attract men, but for the most part, it never enters our minds that we are dressing a certain way to attract men.

I think Louis CK nailed it. It's about as hard for men and women to have good sex with somebody they're attracted to. If a woman's standards are low enough... sure. But then she's just trying to fill the bottomless hole of her soul. Which won't work. A woman with a little self respect and standards has to work for it. And those women do. Good men are rare. As is good women. In this regard I think it's pretty gender equal. I see little value in looking at the behaviour of people who have given up, and are just settling for what they can get. I doubt we can learn much from that behaviour?

Several years ago, I was at a restaurant in Florida, and there was a large group of young Muslim women at a neighboring table. They were covered from head to toe, but they all looked beautiful. They wore different colors and patterns, along with their headscarves. Most of them had on makeup. I seriously doubt that pleasing or attracting men was on their minds when they put together the lovely clothing, that met the requirements of their culture. They got my attention because from a woman's perspective, they looked stunning, not sexy. Women dress to establish a style that pleases themselves. it might conform to their culture or to gain the acceptance of their female friends as well. But, I feel confident in saying that with very few exceptions, women don't dress to attract men. We usually get more attention from men that we want or need.

I think you're wrong. I think they dress to please or attract men. It's just that the religious requirement just means they're limited in how they do it. It must really suck for a Muslim girl who doesn't have great eyes or an ugly nose. Which explains why Muslim countries are at the top when it comes to nose jobs. I think it just sucks more to be a woman in a Muslim country. I somehow think the small benefits do not outweigh the negatives. Which is why, as soon a woman from a Muslim family, manages to extricate herself from those social pressures... they do NOT, dress in Muslim clothing. I would challenge anybody to come up with an example of it. I can't. Yes, I'm aware of my limited knowledge on this subject.

Of course there are times and places where women dress in order not to attract too much attention based on how they dress. A single young woman probably isn't going to wear a low cut dress and high heels if she's going to the grocery store by herself. But, when women get together with friends or want to dress up, getting the attention of men rarely enters their minds. I've participated in this thread because it's bothered me my entire life that some men think we dress to please them. Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

This is an excellent point. But I think you're leaving out a part of the puzzle. They're still dressing to impress men. It's just that they judge each other on their ability to do so. A woman who is good at dressing to attract men, while staying classy, will rise in the eyes of her peers. But they're still dressing to impress men.

It's the same with guys in the gym. Women like fit guys who are defined. They're typically not into bodybuilders. But men who work out usually body build. Who are they trying to impress? They're trying to impress their peers, who judge them on their ability to attract women. It's not a perfect analogy, because women tend to value other things in mates rather than physical appearance (more than men).

So women dress for women. And men work out for men. But the goal with both of the activities is still to attract a mate of the opposite sex.

 

[Toni]

Let's just put it very simply. Teenage girls and women don't need to dress sexy to attract men. Heterosexual men are attracted to us because we are women, not because of the way we dress. There may be a small minority of females who think they need to dress a certain way to attract men, but for the most part, it never enters our minds that we are dressing a certain way to attract men.

Several years ago, I was at a restaurant in Florida, and there was a large group of young Muslim women at a neighboring table. They were covered from head to toe, but they all looked beautiful. They wore different colors and patterns, along with their headscarves. Most of them had on makeup. I seriously doubt that pleasing or attracting men was on their minds when they put together the lovely clothing, that met the requirements of their culture. They got my attention because from a woman's perspective, they looked stunning, not sexy. Women dress to establish a style that pleases themselves. it might conform to their culture or to gain the acceptance of their female friends as well. But, I feel confident in saying that with very few exceptions, women don't dress to attract men. We usually get more attention from men that we want or need.

Of course there are times and places where women dress in order not to attract too much attention based on how they dress. A single young woman probably isn't going to wear a low cut dress and high heels if she's going to the grocery store by herself. But, when women get together with friends or want to dress up, getting the attention of men rarely enters their minds. I've participated in this thread because it's bothered me my entire life that some men think we dress to please them. Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

I agree with everything you said....but, at the same time.....women, often, do dress to appeal to men (or a particular man). There's no getting around it. The problem in many ways is men thinking that that's either the only reason (as in the video toni posted) or that they are that man or that the woman wants something she doesn't necessarily want (sex for example, or even just to be 'chatted up'). No, I am not a woman, but equally you are not other women that are not you, and I have sisters I am close to and grew up with, a wife, I had a mum, aunts, nieces, female cousins, many close females friends, plus, I can google stuff like, "do young women dress to attract men" or just google generally and read a variety of opinions.

Also, while it's true that women don't need to dress a certain way to be attractive to men, and that men's tastes will differ, heterosexual men will, by and large, be more attracted to a woman if she dresses a certain way. That said, most of us don't go just by attire and make up, or even physical looks. But initially, at first visual impression.......we almost can't help it, the sense of attraction I mean.

I can google stuff too, and get all kinds of bad answers. For example, try googling paleo diets.....Or just name a diet. You'll get scads of stuff that pretends to be scientific but is so much gobblety goop that it will put you off food altogether for a week.

The internet is a wild and wooly place, not filled with facts and truth. Those can be found but one must know what they are looking for, where to look and how to evaluate the information and the information source.