Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

[ruby sparks]

Interview with Evolutionary biologist Heather Heying:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVyQGmD3d8[/YOUTUBE]

Listen for a few minutes from about 4:30 to 7:30.

I'm not saying I fully agree with her.

 

[bigfield]

Let's just put it very simply. Teenage girls and women don't need to dress sexy to attract men. Heterosexual men are attracted to us because we are women, not because of the way we dress. There may be a small minority of females who think they need to dress a certain way to attract men, but for the most part, it never enters our minds that we are dressing a certain way to attract men.

Several years ago, I was at a restaurant in Florida, and there was a large group of young Muslim women at a neighboring table. They were covered from head to toe, but they all looked beautiful. They wore different colors and patterns, along with their headscarves. Most of them had on makeup. I seriously doubt that pleasing or attracting men was on their minds when they put together the lovely clothing, that met the requirements of their culture. They got my attention because from a woman's perspective, they looked stunning, not sexy. Women dress to establish a style that pleases themselves. it might conform to their culture or to gain the acceptance of their female friends as well. But, I feel confident in saying that with very few exceptions, women don't dress to attract men. We usually get more attention from men that we want or need.

Of course there are times and places where women dress in order not to attract too much attention based on how they dress. A single young woman probably isn't going to wear a low cut dress and high heels if she's going to the grocery store by herself. But, when women get together with friends or want to dress up, getting the attention of men rarely enters their minds. I've participated in this thread because it's bothered me my entire life that some men think we dress to please them. Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

I agree with everything you said....but, at the same time.....women, often, do dress to appeal to men (or a particular man). There's no getting around it. The problem in many ways is men thinking that that's either the only reason (as in the video toni posted) or that they are that man or that the woman wants something she doesn't necessarily want (sex for example, or even just to be 'chatted up'). No, I am not a woman, but equally you are not other women that are not you, and I have sisters I am close to and grew up with, a wife, I had a mum, aunts, nieces, female cousins, many close females friends, plus, I can google stuff like, "do young women dress to attract men" or just google generally and read a variety of opinions.

Also, while it's true that women don't need to dress a certain way to be attractive to men, and that men's tastes will differ, heterosexual men will, by and large, be more attracted to a woman if she dresses a certain way. That said, most of us don't go just by attire and make up, or even physical looks. But initially, at first visual impression.......we almost can't help it, the sense of attraction I mean.

I can google stuff too, and get all kinds of bad answers. For example, try googling paleo diets.....Or just name a diet. You'll get scads of stuff that pretends to be scientific but is so much gobblety goop that it will put you off food altogether for a week.

It's junk, but it tells you people are doing paleo diets.

 

[Toni]

Here's the top link I got when I googled the phrase I mentioned:

16 Clothing Items Women Wear To Drive Men Wild
https://www.thetalko.com/16-clothing-items-women-wear-to-drive-men-wild/

Like I said: one needs to actually be able to evaluate the info and the source.

Do you know why that person wrote that piece? For money. Do you know why someone paid her money to write that piece (assuming someone paid her money)? Money.

It's kind of like the same reasons prostitutes have sex with men they don't know or like and are not sexually attracted to: money.

 

[Toni]

I think Louis CK nailed it. It's about as hard for men and women to have good sex with somebody they're attracted to. If a woman's standards are low enough... sure. But then she's just trying to fill the bottomless hole of her soul. Which won't work. A woman with a little self respect and standards has to work for it. And those women do. Good men are rare. As is good women. In this regard I think it's pretty gender equal. I see little value in looking at the behaviour of people who have given up, and are just settling for what they can get. I doubt we can learn much from that behaviour?



I think you're wrong. I think they dress to please or attract men. It's just that the religious requirement just means they're limited in how they do it. It must really suck for a Muslim girl who doesn't have great eyes or an ugly nose. Which explains why Muslim countries are at the top when it comes to nose jobs. I think it just sucks more to be a woman in a Muslim country. I somehow think the small benefits do not outweigh the negatives. Which is why, as soon a woman from a Muslim family, manages to extricate herself from those social pressures... they do NOT, dress in Muslim clothing. I would challenge anybody to come up with an example of it. I can't. Yes, I'm aware of my limited knowledge on this subject.

Of course there are times and places where women dress in order not to attract too much attention based on how they dress. A single young woman probably isn't going to wear a low cut dress and high heels if she's going to the grocery store by herself. But, when women get together with friends or want to dress up, getting the attention of men rarely enters their minds. I've participated in this thread because it's bothered me my entire life that some men think we dress to please them. Apparently, many of the men in this thread still don't want to accept the truth.

This is an excellent point. But I think you're leaving out a part of the puzzle. They're still dressing to impress men. It's just that they judge each other on their ability to do so. A woman who is good at dressing to attract men, while staying classy, will rise in the eyes of her peers. But they're still dressing to impress men.

It's the same with guys in the gym. Women like fit guys who are defined. They're typically not into bodybuilders. But men who work out usually body build. Who are they trying to impress? They're trying to impress their peers, who judge them on their ability to attract women. It's not a perfect analogy, because women tend to value other things in mates rather than physical appearance (more than men).

So women dress for women. And men work out for men. But the goal with both of the activities is still to attract a mate of the opposite sex.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ruby sparks]

Here's the top link I got when I googled the phrase I mentioned:

16 Clothing Items Women Wear To Drive Men Wild
https://www.thetalko.com/16-clothing-items-women-wear-to-drive-men-wild/

Like I said: one needs to actually be able to evaluate the info and the source.

Do you know why that person wrote that piece? For money. Do you know why someone paid her money to write that piece (assuming someone paid her money)? Money.

It's kind of like the same reasons prostitutes have sex with men they don't know or like and are not sexually attracted to: money.

I did also say more or less just that in the post just before.

And just to be controversial, though accurate at the same time, it isn't just prostitutes. Broadly, men in general, tend to go more for looks and women more for status (aka money for example). There are plausible social and evolutionary reasons for this, though hopefully they are waning. And it's only a statistical phenomenon, with a certain level of correlation, it should not be applied to an individual.

 

[ruby sparks]

I can google stuff too, and get all kinds of bad answers. For example, try googling paleo diets.....Or just name a diet. You'll get scads of stuff that pretends to be scientific but is so much gobblety goop that it will put you off food altogether for a week.

The internet is a wild and wooly place, not filled with facts and truth. Those can be found but one must know what they are looking for, where to look and how to evaluate the information and the information source.

That's not my point. And it's not just the wild and wooly internet. See the pov of the evolutionary biologist (Heather Heying) I cited too.

 

[TSwizzle]

Meh. I think they are. They might not understand it themselves. Their bodies are raging with confusing hormones remote controlling them towards the cock.

Teenage girls aren't passive innocent little flowers.

No they are not and some of them (a minority) are out there chasing cock like it's going to run out.

 

[ruby sparks]

It's junk, but it tells you people are doing paleo diets.

Exactly. And it's partly two-way. It isn't necessarily what the target potential consumer, male or female, wanted beforehand. See: creating a market.

- - - Updated - - -

....some of them (a minority) are out there chasing cock like it's going to run out.

If so, what's the prob with that? Maybe they are merely highly-sexed or something. Maybe they just love sex and a variety of sexual partners. It does not make them skanky hoes, except in the eyes of those who judge them pejoratively and most probably often in a sexist way.

 

[TSwizzle]

If so, what's the prob with that? Maybe they are merely highly-sexed or something. Maybe they just love sex and a variety of sexual partners. It does not make them skanky hoes, except in the eyes of those who judge them pejoratively and most probably often in a sexist way.

I'm not the one that has a problem with reality.

 

[ruby sparks]

If so, what's the prob with that? Maybe they are merely highly-sexed or something. Maybe they just love sex and a variety of sexual partners. It does not make them skanky hoes, except in the eyes of those who judge them pejoratively and most probably often in a sexist way.

I'm not the one that has a problem with reality.

So why did you use the term?

 

[sharon45]

I don’t understand why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain silent about why they behave as they do.

Who is saying that they do either besides you here?

I'll do you the courtesy of suggesting that you re-read the responses of some of the men in this thread.

My mistake then, since it looked to me that you were generally referring to men, instead of just some men.

And I will also ask you why you decided to call me out for asking why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain pretty darn silent when men wax all poetical about how girls and women dress 'sexy' for the purpose of attracting men, contrary to the statements of the OP. Care to comment?

I already said above that it is about thousands of years of conditioning, and this concerns all sexes on the whole.

 

[sharon45]

What was being stated in the OP and by myself and others is that girls don't dress 'sexy' in order to elicit a sexual response from boys or men. Girls and women 'dress sexy' primarily for themselves and to get a positive response from their (female) friends.

Which is mostly based on shameful conditioning.

 

[Toni]

I'll do you the courtesy of suggesting that you re-read the responses of some of the men in this thread.

My mistake then, since it looked to me that you were generally referring to men, instead of just some men.

And I will also ask you why you decided to call me out for asking why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain pretty darn silent when men wax all poetical about how girls and women dress 'sexy' for the purpose of attracting men, contrary to the statements of the OP. Care to comment?

I already said above that it is about thousands of years of conditioning, and this concerns all sexes on the whole.

Are you suggesting that it is thousands of years of conditioning that causes men to believe that they are experts on why women make choices?

 

[ruby sparks]

Maybe it depends on whether or not the man is worth it?












I hope no one twigged to my subliminal product placement. Order some today, without realising why, and you too can be happier about yourself than you currently are. Special discount for orders over a thousand bottles.

 

[sharon45]

My mistake then, since it looked to me that you were generally referring to men, instead of just some men.

I already said above that it is about thousands of years of conditioning, and this concerns all sexes on the whole.

Are you suggesting that it is thousands of years of conditioning that causes men to believe that they are experts on why women make choices?

No, it took thousands of years to get women to imagine that they are in control.

 

[Toni]

My mistake then, since it looked to me that you were generally referring to men, instead of just some men.

I already said above that it is about thousands of years of conditioning, and this concerns all sexes on the whole.

Are you suggesting that it is thousands of years of conditioning that causes men to believe that they are experts on why women make choices?

No, it took thousands of years to get women to imagine that they are in control.

Wow.

I would say that it is men who imagine that that they are in control. It is women who have been convinced through socialization, not biology, that it is better to allow men to be in control or to believe that they are in control.

 

[Rhea]

I don't have any answers, but I think it would be best if women understood that men are naturally sexually aggressive, and while most men are able to use basic common sense in social situations, there are a good number of men who just can't keep their shit together. We've all known them.

No. It would be good if MEN understood how they should deal with that problem they have. If they can’t handle it, THEY should wear an eye-covering burka and THEY should stay home from dances and bars.

 

[ruby sparks]

I don't have any answers, but I think it would be best if women understood that men are naturally sexually aggressive, and while most men are able to use basic common sense in social situations, there are a good number of men who just can't keep their shit together. We've all known them.

No. It would be good if MEN understood how they should deal with that problem they have. If they can’t handle it, THEY should wear an eye-covering burka and THEY should stay home from dances and bars.

I think we may (hopefully) share quite a lot of the same opinions on such issues Rhea, but mine might differ slightly from yours here.

Imo, there is nothing wrong with giving good advice to anyone as regards reasonable personal responsibility. If I had a teenage son, for example, I might give him advice about how to avoid getting into an argument or fight or a situation where he gets unwanted attention or harassment, or even, possibly, about where to go to avoid the risk of that. I might say something like, 'don't go to that bar wearing a t-shirt with an Irish Tricolour on it'. I might even say to him, 'don't go out on the town in Belfast, Northern Ireland, wearing a t-shirt with an Irish Tricolour on it'. Or I might say, 'if you do, at least be aware of the risks...etc'.

A man who harassed or assaulted him or merely gave him unwanted attention because of the t-shirt would still be in the wrong. That man should not harass or hit or even annoy people because of that. He should deal with it. It is not, for the most part, my son's problem. My son should, in theory, be allowed to wear what he wants, without getting unwanted attention, getting harassed or assaulted.

I might say something similar about , for example, going out dressed in other ways, not just ways which trigger reactions which have to do with Politics or divided cultures. Or about getting too drunk.

I am not sure if those are good analogies or if they fit. They may not. Maybe I haven't thought them through. But what I am trying to say is (a) that it would be a good thing if women (perhaps especially teenagers) understood that some men can be sexually aggressive and (b) that it is ok to bring up personal responsibility insofar as it increases the risk. A parent who would not bring these things up, with either a daughter or a son, would be remiss, imo. And this, as I see it, is separate from whether the perpetrator of something unwanted and unbenign is ultimately, and indeed legally culpable.

The problem arises, imo, when far too much emphasis, imo the wrong emphasis, is put on the victim. Which it sometimes is. I can think of well-meaning safety advice adverts regarding sexual assault of women where it is, where there's implied slut-shaming (to do with either alcohol, attire and/or behaviour). And I detest that. So I'm saying it (including what I would call 'good parenting') is a matter of emphasis, that it's not fully a binary thing, an either/or, a yes or a no.

I am aware that wearing 'revealing' attire is not positively correlated with being sexually assaulted, which is why I included unwanted attention and harassment.

Also, what Heather Heying said, in the video posted earlier. You may not agree with her. I don't think I fully do.

 

[ruby sparks]

Perhaps the best example I can think of is this:









Assuming the weather is warm (and that he had somewhere or some way of stashing money and/or personal valuables) what would I say to my teenage son if he was going out the door for a night out on the town, during which there might be times when he is alone (walking home late at night for instance, possibly drunk, through unfamiliar areas) wearing that? I might say nothing, depending on how much my son was already aware of all the risks (bear in mind that some places are more tolerant than others by the way and so in some places the risks might be fewer and lesser). So it depends on my son and I might say nothing at all. But also, if that was my son, and let's say for the sake of argument that he's also gay, at least he looks like he is physically strong enough, he's not puny, which might at least deter certain advances and unwanted attentions, and he might say to me, 'don't worry dad, I can handle myself if there's any bother' (by the way, having a daughter who had a black belt at karate would be as reassuring to me in a similar way).

And if he's not also wearing high heels, he looks like he could get away fast if necessary. And he's not a girl, so the sort of behaviours his attire might attract are not necessarily the same or as prevalent (by which I mean sexual advances). So the analogy isn't perfect. And this (below) might be a different situation in some ways, if it were my teenage daughter getting ready to go out on the town:






In both cases, a parent (mother or father) not saying (if felt necessary in the particular teenager's case) 'take care, be aware' and other advices about aspects of personal responsibility (including what sort of reactions they might get which may be unwanted) could easily be described as not doing a good job, imo. It would also depend on how the advice is given and the content of it and what it emphasises. It could easily go askew. For example, a dad who says to the daughter above 'if you go out like that, men will think you're a slut' (or worse, that 'men will think you're asking for it') runs the real risk of reinforcing problematic attitudes which his daughter may internalise, especially if he himself thinks that women dressed like that are either sluts or asking for it. And even if he doesn't.

Of course, and in anticipation of incoming anecdotes, parenting styles will vary, according to the parent or parents and according to the son or daughter and their experiences and attitudes and the situations and contexts.

Anecdotally, of our two daughters, the younger (the straight one), was more likely at times to look a bit like the pic above, as a teenager, though not that often to that extent. In her case, we both felt she was pretty mature and sorted (already a proto-feminist) so we felt that there was little we could tell her that she wasn't already aware of. Older daughter may a few times have gone to a house party dressed a little bit like that, but in that case we knew most of the attendees, boys and girls (my wife teaches at the mixed-sex school both daughters attended and there was not a huge problem with such things). Ditto for weddings and other family or friends gatherings, personal safety not being such an issue in those cases. And if you're a parent, you'll know that it's mainly about safety, and precautions and prevention, not so much 'who's to blame' (afterwards) or even who would be to blame (beforehand).

 

[thebeave]

I agree with you 100% on the above posts, but I can tell you're kind of new here. Get ready for some finger wagging action.