Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

[Toni]

No. Dress and appearance have nothing to do with unwanted attention.

Are you sure that's the case?

Here's a study that says men are more likely to approach a woman who is provocatively dressed, and they were also more inclined to believe that she would have sex with them:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0059/f8321af0651a0c9070202d6568902b3b5f73.pdf

Women in burkas are attacked.

Girls in baggy long sleeved turtleneck sweaters and slacks are attacked.

Young women walking down a street with their mothers are catcalled.

80 year old women's homes are broken into and raped by strangers--and their granddaughters are still blamed for the attack because they exist.

I'm fucking sure the cause of attacks on girls and women are men.

 

[ruby sparks]

No. Dress and appearance have nothing to do with unwanted attention.

Are you sure that's the case?

Here's a study that says men are more likely to approach a woman who is provocatively dressed, and they were also more inclined to believe that she would have sex with them:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0059/f8321af0651a0c9070202d6568902b3b5f73.pdf

Women in burkas are attacked.

Girls in baggy long sleeved turtleneck sweaters and slacks are attacked.

Young women walking down a street with their mothers are catcalled.

80 year old women's homes are broken into and raped by strangers--and their granddaughters are still blamed for the attack because they exist.

I'm fucking sure the cause of attacks on girls and women are men.

I think you're missing my point on that. You said dress and appearance had nothing to do with unwanted attention.

 

[ruby sparks]

Sometimes the boy's track team from the local high school, or sometimes the men's college football team or sometimes a group of fairly buff adult men, up to and including men from their 20's to their sixties take a run around my neighborhood or on popular walking paths and where a lot of people drive past on their way to work or errands or whatever. Sometimes, they are alone. Do you know what those sluts do? Sometimes they run right past me with no shirts on and short pants! Even worse, sometimes, men--in groups or ALONE! ride past around in those tight little bicycle shirts with those tight shirts and sexy sexy helmets.

Do you know what has never occurred to me--or them--one single time????

That they might be targets for unwanted attention, sexual harassment or rape.

Do you know why that is?

Because women do not generally sexually assault men, for one thing. Mostly, they don't sexually harass them either. Probably not give them unwanted attention as often either, I'd guess.

 

[Toni]

Sometimes the boy's track team from the local high school, or sometimes the men's college football team or sometimes a group of fairly buff adult men, up to and including men from their 20's to their sixties take a run around my neighborhood or on popular walking paths and where a lot of people drive past on their way to work or errands or whatever. Sometimes, they are alone. Do you know what those sluts do? Sometimes they run right past me with no shirts on and short pants! Even worse, sometimes, men--in groups or ALONE! ride past around in those tight little bicycle shirts with those tight shirts and sexy sexy helmets.

Do you know what has never occurred to me--or them--one single time????

That they might be targets for unwanted attention, sexual harassment or rape.

Do you know why that is?

Because women do not generally sexually assault men, for one thing.

Bingo!


Now, explain to me why men sexually assault women.

 

[Toni]

Women in burkas are attacked.

Girls in baggy long sleeved turtleneck sweaters and slacks are attacked.

Young women walking down a street with their mothers are catcalled.

80 year old women's homes are broken into and raped by strangers--and their granddaughters are still blamed for the attack because they exist.

I'm fucking sure the cause of attacks on girls and women are men.

I think you're missing my point on that. You said dress and appearance had nothing to do with unwanted attention.

You are confused.

I did say that dress and appearance had nothing to do with unwanted attention. Because they don't.

 

[ruby sparks]

I did say that dress and appearance had nothing to do with unwanted attention. Because they don't.

How do you know? That study suggests otherwise for starters.

 

[ruby sparks]

On a slightly separate tack:

"...some women say they use dress to communicate their sexual desire to men and attract sexual attention from men (Grammer et al. 2004; Montemurro and Gillen 2013; Smolak et al. 2014)."

And, in terms of the perceptions of others:


"Koukounas and Letch (2001) reported both men and women thought that women used sexy dress to indicate sexual interest."

however..

"...men perceived more sexual intent than women."

and (again in terms of the perceptions of others)..

"Women indicated [their percepton that] the woman dressed that way to gain affection. "

And on their own behalf...

"Over half the women shared that they sometimes dressed in body revealing clothing; of those, nearly three-fourths indicated that they did so to look attractive, not to indicate their sexual intent."

(my bold)

Dress and Sex: A Review of Empirical Research Involving Human Participants and Published in Refereed Journals
https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1185&context=ny_pubs

 

[ruby sparks]

And from the same review, something I briefly mentioned earlier, objectification:

"Researchers who study twentieth century media using content analysis have documented that over time women and girls have increasingly been depicted as sex objects therein (e.g., Frith et al. 2004; Graf et al. 2013; Krassas et al. 2001; Millard and Grant 2006) and noted it was their clothing that has often been found to be objectifying (Aubrey and Frisby 2011; Goodin et al. 2011). Subsequently, researchers have shown interest in documenting the detrimental consequences for women to repeated exposure to these depictions. To explain some of the consequences, Fredrickson and Roberts (1997) developed objectifcation theory. Te theory proposes that exposure to depictions of women and girls as sex objects as well as exposure to messages about the importance of appearance encourages women to be self-conscious about their appearance and to objectify their bodies. As objectifcation theory was developed primarily with women in mind, most of the extant research investigating relationships between dress, sex, and objectifcation focused on women........research is presented that documents wearing sexy dress contributes to self-objectifcation."

 

[ruby sparks]

And again from the same review:

Only two of the studies reviewed in this section directly investigated wearing sexy dress and actual violence and in both of those studies, no relationship was found. This finding contrasts with results indicating that sexy dress is linked to likelihood of sexual assault or harassment as well as to attributions of responsibility for sexual assault or harassment. Specifically, at least one group of professionals (psychiatrists) and several groups of undergraduates attributed sexual violence to women’s sexy dress. Future researchers may wish to investigate this apparent difference.

Which supports both (a) the idea that clothing does not correlate with likelihood of violent assault and (b) that it is still nonetheless commonly believed that it does.

 

[ruby sparks]

Because women do not generally sexually assault men, for one thing.

Bingo!

I already had that view!

Now, explain to me why men sexually assault women.

Broadly speaking, because men generally are more 'demonic'*, aggressive and violent, including sexually. Which 'demonism', aggression and violent tendencies are why they attack other men too, and indeed start wars.

It's not just men, obviously, but it generally is, much more often, and certainly more violently when it does happen.

* No supernatural implications.

 

[Toni]

I already had that view!

Now, explain to me why men sexually assault women.

Broadly speaking, because men generally are more 'demonic*', aggressive and violent, including sexually. Which 'demonism', aggression and violent tendencies are why they attack other men too, and indeed start wars.

* No supernatural implications.

So it has nothing to do with women wearing short skirts?

 

[ruby sparks]

So it has nothing to do with women wearing short skirts?

As regards rape and assault likelihood, it does not have anything to do with short skirts. I have a little trouble believing that (as, apparently do a lot of people, including women) but that's what the studies say.

And why I have trouble believing it may be because (a) it seems counter-intuitive in some ways (though I can understand why it shouldn't be and is correct) and (b) when I see a young girl, I imagine that she could be my daughter, in a way (she's certainly somebody's) so maybe I'm over-cautious. And boys are somebody's sons. And if I'd had sons, I might be as cautious, in different ways, for different reasons. No son of mine would have grown up to have the sort of attitudes that relate to toxic masculinity, if I could have had anything to do with it.

And imo, rape and assault are not the only issues of concern. They are the worst outcomes, though at the same time also thankfully rare. Other, lesser problems may be more routine and prevalent.

And quite apart from anything unbenign that another person, male or female, might do or say to her or think of her, a girl sexually objecting herself is not a good thing either.

In any case, dress is irrelevant when it comes to the law on guilt over rape and assault, as it should be.

 

[Toni]

So it has nothing to do with women wearing short skirts?

As regards rape and assault likelihood, it does not have anything to do with short skirts. I have a little trouble believing that (as, apparently do a lot of people, including women) but that's what the studies say.

And why I have trouble believing it may be because (a) it seems counter-intuitive in some ways (though I can understand why it shouldn't be and is correct) and (b) when I see a young girl, I imagine that she could be my daughter, in a way (she's certainly somebody's) so maybe I'm over-cautious. And boys are somebody's sons. And if I'd had sons, I might be as cautious, in different ways, for different reasons.

And imo, rape and assault are not the only issues of concern. They are the worst outcomes, though at the same time also thankfully rare. Other, lesser problems may be more routine and prevalent.

And quite apart from anything unbenign that another person, male or female, might do or say to her or think of her, a girl sexually objecting herself is not a good thing either.

What do you consider a girl sexually objectifying herself to encompass?

A number of women have already explained to you, rather exhaustively, that girls dress fancy to please themselves, not to be sexually provocative.

None of the men who run around shirtless or in tight little bicycle outfits are trying to be sexually provocative: They are dressing for their own comfort, performance, and because they like it. No one disputes that or suggests that these full grown men are trying to elicit any sexual interest from females or gay men.

One would think that they might be more cautious given that it seems that men have a problem believing that teenage girls don’t dress to elicit sexual responses in men or boys.

It’s almost as though men have trouble taking responsibility for their own feelings and actions.

 

[ruby sparks]

What do you consider a girl sexually objectifying herself to encompass?

That's quite a big topic in itself. I'm not sure I have time to get into it fully now. I don't think it's a good thing. It's not the girl's fault, it's not something she freely chooses. It has to do, at source, with the objectification of girls and women by others, including in large part, the media.

A number of women have already explained to you, rather exhaustively, that girls dress fancy to please themselves, not to be sexually provocative.

And that is apparently not always the case, so it doesn't matter how exhaustively you or they explain it, and it doesn't matter whether the person explaining it is a woman, a man or a talking gnu. They would seem to be simply wrong.

 

[Toni]

What do you consider a girl sexually objectifying herself to encompass?

That's quite a big topic in itself. I'm not sure I have time to get into it fully now. I don't think it's a good thing. It's not the girl's fault, it's not something she freely chooses. It has to do, at source, with the objectification of girls and women by others, including in large part, the media.

A number of women have already explained to you, rather exhaustively, that girls dress fancy to please themselves, not to be sexually provocative.

And that is clearly not always the case, so it doesn't matter how exhaustively you or they explain it, and it doesn't matter whether the person explaining it is a woman, a man or a talking gnu. It simply is not always the case.

Bullshit.

 

[ruby sparks]

Oh...whatever. Whatever you say. Apparent facts, including what women, sometimes members of the public, sometimes those participating in studies and sometimes experts, themselves say about why they (and other women) wear what they wear, don't enter into that obviously.

 

[TSwizzle]

None of the men who run around shirtless or in tight little bicycle outfits are trying to be sexually provocative: They are dressing for their own comfort, performance, and because they like it. No one disputes that or suggests that these full grown men are trying to elicit any sexual interest from females or gay men.

Bullshit.

 

[Toni]

None of the men who run around shirtless or in tight little bicycle outfits are trying to be sexually provocative: They are dressing for their own comfort, performance, and because they like it. No one disputes that or suggests that these full grown men are trying to elicit any sexual interest from females or gay men.

Bullshit.

You mean: they want me to hit on them?

 

[TSwizzle]

None of the men who run around shirtless or in tight little bicycle outfits are trying to be sexually provocative: They are dressing for their own comfort, performance, and because they like it. No one disputes that or suggests that these full grown men are trying to elicit any sexual interest from females or gay men.

Bullshit.

You mean: they want me to hit on them?

I mean: Bullshit.

 

[Toni]

You mean: they want me to hit on them?

I mean: Bullshit.

Which part?
That they are dressing for their own comfort, performance and because they like it?

Or that they aren't trying to be sexually provocative?

Or that people don't assume their intent is to be sexually provocative?