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Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

Even if they do dress sexy in order to attract men for mating purposes, that doesn’t mean that they want to mate with EVERY man. If you’re not one of the ones she’s thinking of and you misconstrue the mating signals she’s directing at others to be directed at you, you’re still the one in the wrong, not her.

She can dress however she wants for whatever reasons she wants and if those reasons don’t involve you then ... you’re not involved, no matter how much you’d like to be.

I think the guys who misconstrue those signals are doing it on purpose. Because our culture has chosen to accept it as an excuse. If we didn't, that bullshit excuse would stop being said. So it's great that so many are challenging that idea today.

It's just madonna/whore bullshit, slut shaming. It's nonsense conservatives have told themselves in all ages. Just to give themselves a free pass to mistreat some women.

Whilst I think some guys do it on purpose, some probably don't. To the latter I'd say, look out nonetheless. If it's unwanted, or unless you've got good reasons to think it's wanted, be careful and don't assume.

Though that can be tricky. Some women, apparently, want the man to make the first move. But 'just don't be an arse' is generally good advice, imo, and if rebuffed or you don't get a favourable response after the first foray, seriously consider laying off. Then I suppose you get the confident guys, the ones who think 'she just doesn't know me yet, I'll keep going'. And after that you get the really dangerous ones, the ones who don't much care what the woman thinks, now or later, so long as he gets his Ivor the Engine into the tunnel.

By the same token, some men do it on purpose, and as you say the madonna/whore thing can be a part of that, and not imo a good part. It's a terrible dichotomy, imo. Obviously.
 
Isn't it ironic that men are cast in the role of 'protector' but the thing that they need to protect women from is...men?

I guess so? Does it matter?

There's a recurring message that comes out of these discussions: women are angry about the fact that they have to protect themselves from men. But float the idea that other men should step in, and that also makes you angry?

Men are stepping in.....by telling women what they can and cannot do, what they can and cannot wear and what WOMEN mean when they wear certain clothing. This is distinctly different than men telling women what the men want women to mean and how it makes men feel.

Men do not seem interested at all in controlling their own behavior, teaching their sons better or standing up to other men behaving badly. See below.

Maybe men could just start acting better and cut out all that middle fighting/chest thumping part?

LOL. I hope you chance upon a magic lamp.
 
Seeing a bunch of semi-formal pictures from various area high schools.

Many of the girls that I know to be 15-17 are shown with their huge happy smiles, feeling fancy in their dresses.

Some of the dresses are extremely short (enough that I’d be annoyed by inability to lean over), some have prodigious cleavage (enough that I’d be annoyed by inability to turn suddenly,) some are accompanied by strappy spike heels (high enough that I’d be annoyed by sore feet and instability). The girls are in bright lipstick and coiffed hair.

But what struck me as I enjoyed how happy their smiles were, was that I knew that not one of them, not a single one, was dressed this way to attract sex.

The think they are fancy. The are fancy.
They think they look more adult. And they do.
And those things are ALL that the girls are looking to be. :joy: fancy grown-ups for the evening.

And it is certain that some people would look at the same innocent pictures and duck-lip poses and think, “they are asking for it.” :glare:

You apparently don't remember being 15. They can't help it. But aside from the accidental advertising of their nascent sexuality, it is not our job as olds to tell them what it is going to be like when they get old. Kids often wear revealing clothes. Fact. Kids are living kids' lives. Fact. Educate but don't preach. It's obvious and they don't care.

I think Rhea does remember being 15. I sure do.

But you are right: Kids often wear revealing clothes. Kids are living kids' lives. Kids have kids' dreams, expectations, experiences, emotions. In an ideal world, those do not need to include expecting to be harassed or assaulted for existing.
 
What a woman wears or does not wear is not the reason men who make passes or unpleasant remarks or sexually assault women do such things.

I totally agree. I think it's a red herring.

Sorry to be a pedant, but the only study cited so far suggests otherwise for the 1st one (passes). As to unpleasant remarks, I don't know. I suspect (fwiw) that what a woman wears or doesn't wear may affect that, though perhaps her behaviour would have to be added in and it may not be the clothes themselves. Sexual assault, yes, what a woman wears is not correlated to that, according to the two studies I've heard of. As far as I am aware, other recent studies seem to confirm this. As to touching, I don't know. I mean just touching, not groping or pinching. Touching can be said to be a form of sexual assault, if it's unwanted, of course, particularly touching exposed skin, and perhaps even more so for certain parts of a body (back of hand versus inner thigh?) but imo it'd be a comparatively mild example. And we might even distinguish briefly touching from both 'keeping your hand there' and also from stroking.

As for rubbing yourself up against the person standing next to you on a crowded underground train, which is apparently very common and has happened to several women I know, I would suspect that does not depend on the clothes.

As has been pointed out, an attractive woman provocatively dressed can be intimidating to at least some would-be male approachers and perhaps many if not most would-be assaulters, because it implies confidence, so in some ways, wearing sexually provocative clothes may be a deterrent. Though not in terms of getting unwanted looks or stares, perhaps.

Consuming alcohol. That, apparently, is a risk factor. For both potential victim and potential perpetrator of...whatever they perpetrate (going all the way from looking.....up to rape, and everything in between).

I think you are confusing correlation with causation.
 
What a woman wears or does not wear is not the reason men who make passes or unpleasant remarks or sexually assault women do such things.

I totally agree. I think it's a red herring.

Sorry to be a pedant, but the only study cited so far suggests otherwise for the 1st one (passes). As to unpleasant remarks, I don't know. I suspect (fwiw) that what a woman wears or doesn't wear may affect that, though perhaps her behaviour would have to be added in and it may not be the clothes themselves. Sexual assault, yes, what a woman wears is not correlated to that, according to the two studies I've heard of. As far as I am aware, other recent studies seem to confirm this. As to touching, I don't know. I mean just touching, not groping or pinching. Touching can be said to be a form of sexual assault, if it's unwanted, of course, particularly touching exposed skin, and perhaps even more so for certain parts of a body (back of hand versus inner thigh?) but imo it'd be a comparatively mild example. And we might even distinguish briefly touching from both 'keeping your hand there' and also from stroking.

As for rubbing yourself up against the person standing next to you on a crowded underground train, which is apparently very common and has happened to several women I know, I would suspect that does not depend on the clothes.

Now we've swerved into territory that is a problem when discussing these things. We're using the same words to mean different things. Unwanted touchers in subways exploit that it is crowded and sometimes we bump into each other. Super damn hard to evaluate whether or not it's predatory. I've certainly bumped into my share of boobs and buts, in spite of trying really hard not to.

As for unwanted comments... Men who are flirting almost never say straight out what they want. It's all hints and innuendos. You can tell a woman she's pretty and depending on how you say it, it can mean a whole range of different things. How would such a study even look like? What would we measure? How the hell do you study tone of voice? That's not factoring in women who are hyper sensitive, and men who lack social skills.

I was at a party last month and there was a guy that I know superficially, who was all over a woman (who I didn't know at the time, but now I know). The man is pretty aspie and clueless when it comes to reading body language. The woman is super submissive and completely lacked skills in communicating disinterest clearly. I intervened and told the guy that he was making her uncomfortable. They were both very grateful that I intervened. The take away from this is that they were both at fault. Yet, if this would have been a #Metoo, he would have gotten all the blame.

Communication around flirting is hard, and difficult to get right. Also, different rules apply. An attractive/hot guy is expected to be much more sexually aggressive than a less hot guy. A hot guy who isn't extremely sexually aggressive will get zero action. Because women are typically just too shy around them to show any interest. Which means that when hot guys fuck this up, the damage is greater. But when it comes to #Metoo, we don't care. We treat these kinds of men the same.

As has been pointed out, an attractive woman provocatively dressed can be intimidating to at least some would-be male approachers and perhaps many if not most would-be assaulters, because it implies confidence, so in some ways, wearing sexually provocative clothes may be a deterrent. Though not in terms of getting unwanted looks or stares, perhaps.

I think being provocatively dressed as a woman acts as a filter to filter out less confident men. And that's all it is. Confident men will be more sexually aggressive. Because they always are, if they're interested. That's what confidence does to people.

Consuming alcohol. That, apparently, is a risk factor. For both potential victim and potential perpetrator of...whatever they perpetrate (going all the way from looking.....up to rape, and everything in between).

Which is another interesting factor. We drink in order to inhibit our ability to make judgements. When we're around people who drink, we want their judgement to be worse. Drinking will increase all human behaviours, unwanted and wanted. I'm not saying that a woman who drinks deserves what happens. But it does put her in the line of fire.

Camille Paglia said something interesting on this. She said that when they fought for women's right in the 60'ies one issue was being allowed to leave the dormitories at night. Because it was known that men are something sexually violent and predatory women weren't allowed out at night. What they objected to was being treated like children. They were all aware that sometimes men are sexually violent and predatory, but they wanted to be the ones who decided what risks were worth taking. She's criticised later generations of feminists for living in a fantasy world and making unreasonable demands. Or as she has put it, they want to be treated like children again.

Some men will always be sexually violent and predatory. I think it's in our genetics. I'm not saying that therefore men should be free to rape. Or that we shouldn't do our best to stop it. But if women insist on going out and having fun, and want to be able to freely chose which men they spend their time with, this is part of the risk calculation. It doesn't really matter how angry we are about it or how much we think it shouldn't be like this. Or how much we use caps lock. It is like this, and is most likely unfixable. Unless we want to have a police state. These violent men are typically in and out of prisons. Unless we just shoot them in the head immediately upon first infringement we're stuck with them, and stuck with having to figure out a way to have fun anyway.

And loads of women find these violent men exciting. They'll be sad if these men disappear. I think the psychological mechanics of this is exceedingly complex and are typically not taken into account at all when we discuss this.

It also brings to mind something else. Afghanistan refugees in Sweden are over represented in sexual assault statistics, and this is causing people to freak out about the rape culture of Afghanistan. And Sweden wants to have re-education camps for Afghanis. Completely ignoring that sexual assault for any group of men is exceedingly rare. Almost all men, Afghanis and ethnic Swedes don't rape anybody ever. When discussing the prevalence of rare events we constantly forget that these are rare events. We constantly forget that nearly all men have clearly never been part of any kind of rape culture.

The number of men responsible for all sexual assaults is a very small group of men.

Either way... I think how they're dressed is neither here nor there.
 
Even if they do dress sexy in order to attract men for mating purposes, that doesn’t mean that they want to mate with EVERY man. If you’re not one of the ones she’s thinking of and you misconstrue the mating signals she’s directing at others to be directed at you, you’re still the one in the wrong, not her.

She can dress however she wants for whatever reasons she wants and if those reasons don’t involve you then ... you’re not involved, no matter how much you’d like to be.

I think the guys who misconstrue those signals are doing it on purpose. Because our culture has chosen to accept it as an excuse. If we didn't, that bullshit excuse would stop being said. So it's great that so many are challenging that idea today.

It's just madonna/whore bullshit, slut shaming. It's nonsense conservatives have told themselves in all ages. Just to give themselves a free pass to mistreat some women.

Whilst I think some guys do it on purpose, some probably don't. To the latter I'd say, look out nonetheless. If it's unwanted, or unless you've got good reasons to think it's wanted, be careful and don't assume.

Though that can be tricky. Some women, apparently, want the man to make the first move. But 'just don't be an arse' is generally good advice, imo, and if rebuffed or you don't get a favourable response after the first foray, seriously consider laying off. Then I suppose you get the confident guys, the ones who think 'she just doesn't know me yet, I'll keep going'. And after that you get the really dangerous ones, the ones who don't much care what the woman thinks, now or later, so long as he gets his Ivor the Engine into the tunnel.

By the same token, some men do it on purpose, and as you say the madonna/whore thing can be a part of that, and not imo a good part. It's a terrible dichotomy, imo. Obviously.

There's also women and women. Most women are fine with somebody making an unwanted pass at them, and crashing and burning. That's usually what happens when men flirt with women. At least when I do it. While some women go absolutely apeshit at any unwanted comment. As a man, you can't really win. When a woman gets upset about me flirting with her, I just don't care. I just move on. I'm not saying it's wrong or right. It's just what I do. Flirting is always a crap shoot. I don't think badly of women like that, or judge her negatively for becoming angry. I just assume she had a bad day and I'm the twentieth idiot to come up to her that night, and I just happened to be that last one making her lose it.

But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about getting a negative signal but persisting anyway. I've seen it happen in many nightclubs. Especially by people on coke. I know loads of women who have let guys nag them to sex. Which IMHO is a form of sexual assault. It's of course psychological manipulation rather than physical violence. But we seem to be fine with that.

Which brings me to my next interesting point. A lot of women like being around men who are high on cocaine. That's pretty much every downtown nightclub. Cocaine makes men extremely sexually aggressive and socially transgressive. It's basically psychopathy in a can. If women aren't cool with men who are sexually aggressive, then why are so many of them there? And these are the most attractive women. All the glamour models and such. Since most men want to sleep with them, if being sexually aggressive didn't work, the men would all lay off the coke. But they don't, because being sexually aggressive works and the women clearly like it. Or they wouldn't be coming back.
 
Which brings me to my next interesting point. A lot of women like being around men who are high on cocaine. That's pretty much every downtown nightclub. Cocaine makes men extremely sexually aggressive and socially transgressive. It's basically psychopathy in a can. If women aren't cool with men who are sexually aggressive, then why are so many of them there? And these are the most attractive women. All the glamour models and such. Since most men want to sleep with them, if being sexually aggressive didn't work, the men would all lay off the coke. But they don't, because being sexually aggressive works and the women clearly like it. Or they wouldn't be coming back.

Yes, there is a set of women whom it works on. So what? There's also a set of women who like to be slapped around. That's not an excuse to go around smacking women in the face until one of them asks you to do it again. There's a set of men who would find the self-confidence and pro-activeness sexy in a woman who came up to them, pulled their wallet out of their pocket, took some cash and said "You're buying me a drink". However, if it's the fifth man she tries this on who finds her sexy, she still just robbed four people and her excuse of "Hey, I was just trying to find somebody who liked it" doesn't make her less of a thief.

If men get a negative signal and persist anyways with a woman who doesn't want them to, they are in the wrong. The fact that there is a percentage of time where they would get a positive result from this doesn't excuse their behaviour the other percentage of the time.
 
I guess so? Does it matter?

There's a recurring message that comes out of these discussions: women are angry about the fact that they have to protect themselves from men. But float the idea that other men should step in, and that also makes you angry?

Men are stepping in.....by telling women what they can and cannot do, what they can and cannot wear and what WOMEN mean when they wear certain clothing. This is distinctly different than men telling women what the men want women to mean and how it makes men feel.

Men do not seem interested at all in controlling their own behavior, teaching their sons better or standing up to other men behaving badly. See below.

Maybe men could just start acting better and cut out all that middle fighting/chest thumping part?

LOL. I hope you chance upon a magic lamp.

You've misconstrued what I said, but I have no stake in proving to you that I'm good or bad, so I'll just boil it down to this:

Do you want men to protect women by standing up to other men behaving badly?
 
Men are stepping in.....by telling women what they can and cannot do, what they can and cannot wear and what WOMEN mean when they wear certain clothing. This is distinctly different than men telling women what the men want women to mean and how it makes men feel.

Men do not seem interested at all in controlling their own behavior, teaching their sons better or standing up to other men behaving badly. See below.

Maybe men could just start acting better and cut out all that middle fighting/chest thumping part?

LOL. I hope you chance upon a magic lamp.

You've misconstrued what I said, but I have no stake in proving to you that I'm good or bad, so I'll just boil it down to this:

Do you want men to protect women by standing up to other men behaving badly?

Perhaps I have misconstrued what you said.

1. I want men to quit behaving badly.

2. When men are behaving badly, I want men to step up and tell them to knock it off. Many men do but too many are silent or worse: cheer them on.

3. I want women to step up and tell men to knock it off. Many women do and I want all women to feel empowered to stand up to abuse no matter the source.
 
Perhaps I have misconstrued what you said.

1. I want men to quit behaving badly.

2. When men are behaving badly, I want men to step up and tell them to knock it off. Many men do but too many are silent or worse: cheer them on.

3. I want women to step up and tell men to knock it off. Many women do and I want all women to feel empowered to stand up to abuse no matter the source.

#2 is all I was after.
 
You apparently don't remember being 15. They can't help it.

I’m not sure, but I think you just told me that me remembering my teen years is less accurate than you imagining my teen years.

That’s remarkable.
 
Which brings me to my next interesting point. A lot of women like being around men who are high on cocaine. That's pretty much every downtown nightclub. Cocaine makes men extremely sexually aggressive and socially transgressive. It's basically psychopathy in a can. If women aren't cool with men who are sexually aggressive, then why are so many of them there? And these are the most attractive women. All the glamour models and such. Since most men want to sleep with them, if being sexually aggressive didn't work, the men would all lay off the coke. But they don't, because being sexually aggressive works and the women clearly like it. Or they wouldn't be coming back.

Yes, there is a set of women whom it works on. So what? There's also a set of women who like to be slapped around. That's not an excuse to go around smacking women in the face until one of them asks you to do it again. There's a set of men who would find the self-confidence and pro-activeness sexy in a woman who came up to them, pulled their wallet out of their pocket, took some cash and said "You're buying me a drink". However, if it's the fifth man she tries this on who finds her sexy, she still just robbed four people and her excuse of "Hey, I was just trying to find somebody who liked it" doesn't make her less of a thief.

If men get a negative signal and persist anyways with a woman who doesn't want them to, they are in the wrong. The fact that there is a percentage of time where they would get a positive result from this doesn't excuse their behaviour the other percentage of the time.

I see you failed to read the first part of my message. The short version, women are different and want different things. Some demand high levels of sexual aggression in a man, so if a guy wants those women he just has to go for it and pay attention to her response. For young men who haven't figured all this out it's a crap shoot.

I personally doubt it's possible for a man to fully figure out how women work. We are similar, but still different enough to make it hard. As several have pointed out in this thread, men couldn't possibly know what women are thinking. So a crap shoot.

But still, your post was a misread of what I write before. An explanation isn't an excuse. It doesn't matter how much some women like sexual aggression. It's still wrong to cross boundaries on those who don't.
 
You apparently don't remember being 15. They can't help it.

I’m not sure, but I think you just told me that me remembering my teen years is less accurate than you imagining my teen years.

That’s remarkable.

Lol. you win. But my point is, Kids these days with their slutty clothes and the boom be de boom music. Get off my lawn!
 
Now we've swerved into territory that is a problem when discussing these things. We're using the same words to mean different things. Unwanted touchers in subways exploit that it is crowded and sometimes we bump into each other. Super damn hard to evaluate whether or not it's predatory. I've certainly bumped into my share of boobs and buts, in spite of trying really hard not to.

Accidental touching is another matter, obviously, and there can be issues around misinterpretation. But in relation to subways, I was talking about someone intentionally rubbing themselves up against someone (and apparently secretly ejaculating, in the case of the experience of one female friend of mine).

Away from that and in general, and sorry if I'm not replying to all your points (I do read them all) I agree with much of what you say, and even when I don't agree I think you often have interesting insights, but there are things you say that also sometimes make my brow furrow slightly. That doesn't mean I think you're toxic. :)

To try to offer an example:

I was at a party last month and there was a guy that I know superficially, who was all over a woman (who I didn't know at the time, but now I know). The man is pretty aspie and clueless when it comes to reading body language. The woman is super submissive and completely lacked skills in communicating disinterest clearly. I intervened and told the guy that he was making her uncomfortable. They were both very grateful that I intervened. The take away from this is that they were both at fault. Yet, if this would have been a #Metoo, he would have gotten all the blame.

And the anecdote about how you walk away, move on, if a woman gets angry at you for as she sees it flirting too much when she's not interested. I've never had that happen, so I suppose I'm wondering....how does it tend to come about, more than once?
 
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Now we've swerved into territory that is a problem when discussing these things. We're using the same words to mean different things. Unwanted touchers in subways exploit that it is crowded and sometimes we bump into each other. Super damn hard to evaluate whether or not it's predatory. I've certainly bumped into my share of boobs and buts, in spite of trying really hard not to.

Accidental touching is another matter, obviously, and there can be issues around misinterpretation. But in relation to subways, I was talking about someone intentionally rubbing themselves up against someone (and apparently secretly ejaculating, in the case of the experience of one female friend of mine).

But that's the whole thing. The predatory subway touchers are exploiting that there is some insecurity about what it on purpose and what isn't. And like all of these compulsive behaviours I'm sure it starts small and then they keep testing the waters to see how far they can go before getting called out on it. And we all know that these guys defence will always be "I'm sorry, it wasn't on purpose". It makes it very hard for the rest of society, (or other men in the subway carriage) to know whose side to defend. I'm sure anybody whose been in a subway also has come across crazy women doing crazy shit. So a woman losing it and yelling at some guy, doesn't have to mean she's a victim.

Away from that and in general, and sorry if I'm not replying to all your points (I do read them all) I agree with much of what you say, and even when I don't agree I think you often have interesting insights, but there are things you say that also sometimes make my brow furrow slightly. That doesn't mean I think you're toxic. :)

You don't have to apologise. Being answered is a not a right. It's a reward :)

And the anecdote about how you walk away, move on, if a woman gets angry at you for as she sees it flirting too much when she's not interested. I've never had that happen, so I suppose I'm wondering....how does it tend to come about, more than once?

Then maybe you're just a chill person? Most women are. A lot of women are extremely uptight. And there's also the thing about mutual attraction. If a woman is into you, as a man, you can't really fail. But if she's not. Then she can be a mine ready to go off if you talk to her. If a less attractive man comes up to a woman with a high view of herself she can take it as an insult, and will get angry. Many women have extremely strong opinions what a man should or shouldn't do and can go apeshit if a man violates these rules (in her head). Between women these can be contradictory. Which can make it problematic for a man who wants to get laid.

I once had a woman I was seeing for two years. We didn't do much talking. We mostly fucked. At some point she asked my opinion on politics. Up to that point she'd been doing all the talking and I'd just been a good listener. She was extremely politically interested and had strong views. Anyhoo... our politics were diametrically opposed. I was fine with that. But she wasn't. In her mind having sex with somebody with other political views than you is an extreme violation of trust. I don't really care about politics that much. So for me it was no biggie. She became extremely angry and felt violated. It was as if I'd lied to her and manipulated her into sex. She screamed at me and ran off into the night and never wanted to hear from me again. Bottom line... women are strange. All men know this. And we do our best to just roll with it.

I don't believe in toxic masculinity any longer. I think it's become a trendy thing to say that has always lacked meaning
 
I don't believe in toxic masculinity any longer. I think it's become a trendy thing to say that has always lacked meaning

You did it again!

I was mostly right with you...all the way through, and then you said that.

I strongly disagree. There is such a thing as toxic masculinity and always has been (at least for thousands of years, and almost certainly more) and it's still very much alive, and it's a problem and one well worth trying to address. Yes, the definitions can be a bit fuzzy, but not imo so fuzzy that the concept lacks meaning.
 
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[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkHQJc248TU[/YOUTUBE]

Example of a safety advice advert. Just the 1st one I came across, I'm not saying it's fab or that it's not.

It's aimed at women, on campuses, and is specifically about what they can do to reduce risk. It's not aimed at men. And it doesn't mention dress. I think the '1 in 4' stat at the end is understood to be a bit controversial.

By contrast (in being aimed at men) here's the recent, famous/infamous (depending on your pov, I'm pretty good with it, all things considered) Gillette one:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0[/YOUTUBE]

and another about date rape aimed at women:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_H4hM68ARY[/YOUTUBE]

And another aimed at male teenagers

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gEftWCG5Ow[/YOUTUBE]

Nothing about dress in any of them, or at least nothing overtly suggesting it increased risk, I think. If some think these videos are going off-topic, I can understand.

The exception in some ways is the Gillette one, since it's essentially commercial which may raise other issues that are not necessarily to do with the overt, anti-toxic masculinity message.
 
Perhaps I have misconstrued what you said.

1. I want men to quit behaving badly.

2. When men are behaving badly, I want men to step up and tell them to knock it off. Many men do but too many are silent or worse: cheer them on.

3. I want women to step up and tell men to knock it off. Many women do and I want all women to feel empowered to stand up to abuse no matter the source.

#2 is all I was after.

And now I have a question for you. :)

Do you have any sort of issue with that (#2)? See also: Gillette ad, above.
 
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkHQJc248TU[/YOUTUBE]

Example of a safety advice advert. Just the 1st one I came across, I'm not saying it's fab or that it's not.

It's aimed at women, on campuses, and is specifically about what they can do to reduce risk. It's not aimed at men. And it doesn't mention dress. I think the '1 in 4' stat at the end is understood to be a bit controversial.

By contrast (in being aimed at men) here's the recent, famous/infamous (depending on your pov, I'm pretty good with it, all things considered) Gillette one:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0[/YOUTUBE]

and another about date rape aimed at women:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_H4hM68ARY[/YOUTUBE]

And another aimed at male teenagers

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gEftWCG5Ow[/YOUTUBE]

Nothing about dress in any of them, or at least nothing overtly suggesting it increased risk, I think. If some think these videos are going off-topic, I can understand.

The exception in some ways is the Gillette one, since it's essentially commercial which may raise other issues that are not necessarily to do with the overt, anti-toxic masculinity message.

But what does it mean? Can you give an example of a toxic masculine behaviour and it's non-toxic counterpart?

Victim blaming isn't toxic masculinity because both men and women victim blame. It's a wider social problem. Calling it toxic masculinity makes it sound like it's only a problem for men to fix. It isn't.
 
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