Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

[Toni]

Isn't this the part where dad teaches son about respect for women and mom teaches daughter about (fill in the blank, mom). Or do we live in a fantasy world where seventeen/eighteen year old boys are expected to be in complete control of their emotions and urges regardless of the alcohol that may have been consumed (which by the way was taught to be acceptable by none other than mom and dad's regular drinking and shrine to alcohol). Because that world gets ugly fast.

Indeed the world gets ugly fast when we don’t teach kids to respect other people and to control their urges(not just sex).

For the record, the first time someone tried to rape me, I was skinny, flat chested, and wearing a brand new long sleeved turtle neck top and pants purchased so that there was room for me to grow into them. I’ve never been attacked when I was ‘dressed sexy.’ That’s simply a pretext for excusing bad behavior on the part of would be rapists.

 

[Toni]

I still don't understand how you know what's in their minds, unless you ask them and even then, I wouldn't expect a teenage girl to necessarily be honest with an adult about her sexual desires. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as they say.

Are there ever occasions where teen girls dress up to impress/attract boys (and thus sex)? If not, what methods, other than appearance, do girls that age use to get the attention of boys?

Yeah, sure. Boys can find out whether it;'s the case by looking for other signs besides clothing. If necessary, asking the girls if they want sex.
I'm talking about a high school semi formal dance, so it's not actually necessary for the boys to get laid that night, you know.

Isn’t blue balls an often fatal condition???

 

[Rhea]

I still don't understand how you know what's in their minds, unless you ask them and even then, I wouldn't expect a teenage girl to necessarily be honest with an adult about her sexual desires. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as they say.

So just to be clear that you’e gotten the message here, Beve:

ALL OF THE WOMEN ON THIS THREAD, All of us, hv said we do not dress fancy in order to troll for sex.
So are we clear that YOU are the one out of step with the intent of women dressing up?

Are there ever occasions where teen girls dress up to impress/attract boys (and thus sex)? If not, what methods, other than appearance, do girls that age use to get the attention of boys?

Dressing to impress IS NOT EQUAL TO dressing for sex, by the way.
Attracting boys IS NOT EQUAL TO asking for sex, by the way.

I hope this is more clear to you now.
None of these things is “asking for,” or “permission” or “consent”

We just wanna dress fancy, and it’s really not for you - at all.

My OP was prompted in part by the knowledge that so many men think that if a woman dresses fancy, it’s CONSENT, when it’s nothing of the kind.

We never do this to advertise consent to ANY/ALL men. That is never true. Given the number of men in a room, you can just be sure that whatever it is, it’s unlikely that it was for you. And even if it was for a guy instead of for self, it still doesn’t equal consent, even for that guy. It is much more likely to be for a date and conversation to deermine if it can grow into a relationship.

And on the ocasions when a woman is trolling for sex? She does NOT need to rely on her clothes to make this known. So just don’t ever count on the clothes as a signal of any kind. You’ll be more likely to be accurate.

 

[southernhybrid]

Rhea knows what she's talking about because she's a woman. I wore mini skirts when I got dressed up, when I was 18 because they were stylish and cute. Those of us who grew up in the 60s and enjoyed the styles of the time never dressed to please men. We dressed to please ourselves or perhaps to fit in with our girlfriends.

Women of all ages should dress however they like and should not be judged by how they dress. Men are clueless if they think that we dress to attract men. What well adjusted woman would even want to attract a man based on what she's wearing? There may be exceptions, but I have no doubt they are rare.

The only time a man threatened to rape me, was when I was wearing a long pin striped, shirt waist dress with a little white vest and flat shoes. I probably wore it to work that day. Maybe because it was late at night, I looked like an easy target, but I think it's safe to say that the asshole didn't follow me to my car and threaten to rape me because of what I was wearing.

Women, generally speaking, care about how they look, but attracting men rarely even enters our minds when we decide how to dress.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I must admit, I never went to meet a date hoping she'd show up dressed sexily.

I started all my dates hoping that she'd show up.

 

[steve_bank]

Well, to be honest. Women exist to look good and please men, am I right or am I wrong?

 

[prideandfall]

ALL OF THE WOMEN ON THIS THREAD, All of us, hv said we do not dress fancy in order to troll for sex.

true but also kind of irrelevant to the point being made.

Dressing to impress IS NOT EQUAL TO dressing for sex, by the way.

but if the only way to impress is to display sexual appeal, what exactly is the practical difference?
or, perhaps more fittingly, if the only way that women actually utilize in our society to impress is to display their sexual appeal, what exactly is the practical difference?

Attracting boys IS NOT EQUAL TO asking for sex, by the way.

true, but in an existential sense what else is the POINT of doing that?

We just wanna dress fancy, and it’s really not for you - at all.

except that it is, because at its core the desire to "dress fancy" is to cause a reaction in other people - so i'll buy that manipulating other people is definitely done for the manipulator's benefit, the style and type of dress is done for the sake of other people.

My OP was prompted in part by the knowledge that so many men think that if a woman dresses fancy, it’s CONSENT, when it’s nothing of the kind.

aside from several posters who will remain nameless who's usernames start with the letter D (and/or L and/or J) who is it here on this forum you think you're preaching to and giving new information to?

 

[sharon45]

Seeing a bunch of semi-formal pictures from various area high schools.

Many of the girls that I know to be 15-17 are shown with their huge happy smiles, feeling fancy in their dresses.

Some of the dresses are extremely short (enough that I’d be annoyed by inability to lean over), some have prodigious cleavage (enough that I’d be annoyed by inability to turn suddenly,) some are accompanied by strappy spike heels (high enough that I’d be annoyed by sore feet and instability). The girls are in bright lipstick and coiffed hair.

But what struck me as I enjoyed how happy their smiles were, was that I knew that not one of them, not a single one, was dressed this way to attract sex.

The think they are fancy. The are fancy.
They think they look more adult. And they do.
And those things are ALL that the girls are looking to be. fancy grown-ups for the evening.

This is just the thousands of years of conditioning speaking loudly.

 

[TSwizzle]

It's not like that at the high schools where I live. An awful lot of girls at high school put it about openly.

 

[Rhea]

An awful lot of girls at high school put it about openly.

What does that mean?

 

[southernhybrid]

Well, to be honest. Women exist to look good and please men, am I right or am I wrong?

You're wrong. Men exist to serve women. Get it right!

 

[TSwizzle]

It's not like that at the high schools where I live. An awful lot of girls at high school put it about openly.

I thought it was obvious but briefly, there are plenty high school girls dress as skanky ho's and act accordingly.

 

[ruby sparks]

Clothes have many more implications than simply attracting the opposite sex. Among other things they display status, maturity, and wealth. In business you often here the admonitions to “dress for success” and to “dress for the job you want, not the one you have.” Until fairly recently, if I am not mistaken, boys in England wore short pants until they reached a certain age. The right wing complains that African Americans dress like thugs, and therefore are “asking for it” vis a vis police. In older times status meant wearing clothes that were hard to put on, implying that one had plenty of leisure time and/or servants. That’s why, for men, a tux is so fussy to put on. Dress for dinner. Jacket and tie required for admission to this club, etc. None of this has to do with having sex.

Imo, women dress the way described in the OP for several reasons, which may vary from individual to individual and social context to social context.

In no particular order:

1. Status (as you mention).
2. Peer approval or group bonding.
3. Sexual display.
4. Attracting men (not necessarily for sex or even romance).
5. Fun.
6. Self-image (dressing to please themselves).

Face make-up and perhaps red lipstick especially (or cheek rouge) is a case in point, I think. It's an aphrodisiac to men and carries an underlying component of sexual display (as do exposed cleavage, exposed legs and high heels), but it is, or was, also a status thing. Wealthy women could afford the leisure time and expense of either applying make up or having it applied.

Imo, sexual display is often in there, sometimes unbeknownst to the girl or woman, as is attracting men. Neither of course means that the girl or woman wants to have sex, and certainly not with just any man who happens to be aroused or attracted. And certainly it does not mean that the girl or woman is either encouraging sexual assault or rape. As far as I understand it, such things are not positively correlated with being sexually assaulted or raped in any case.

 

[Toni]

An awful lot of girls at high school put it about openly.

What does that mean?

It means that someone needs to put a hard ban on TSwizzle being anywhere near high schools or middle schools.

 

[ruby sparks]

My objection to the term skanky ho is (a) that skanky implies smelly and (b) that ho means ho. Women or girls who are merely promiscuous should not be subject to pejoratives, and especially not inaccurate ones, any more than men or boys who are promiscuous, imo.

 

[prideandfall]

Clothes have many more implications than simply attracting the opposite sex. Among other things they display status, maturity, and wealth.

yes but here's my question:
in terms of biology and cultural evolution, what is the point of those things (status, maturity, wealth) other than to get pussy?

In business you often here the admonitions to “dress for success” and to “dress for the job you want, not the one you have.”

yes but that is clearly the fault of the industrial revolution and the inability of the proles to separate classism from cultural value.

 

[Toni]

My objection to the term skanky ho is (a) that skanky implies smelly and (b) that ho means ho. Women or girls who are merely promiscuous should not be subject to pejoratives, and especially not inaccurate ones, any more than men or boys who are promiscuous, imo.

WTF does ‘skanky ho’ have to do with this topic?

 

[Toni]

Clothes have many more implications than simply attracting the opposite sex. Among other things they display status, maturity, and wealth. In business you often here the admonitions to “dress for success” and to “dress for the job you want, not the one you have.” Until fairly recently, if I am not mistaken, boys in England wore short pants until they reached a certain age. The right wing complains that African Americans dress like thugs, and therefore are “asking for it” vis a vis police. In older times status meant wearing clothes that were hard to put on, implying that one had plenty of leisure time and/or servants. That’s why, for men, a tux is so fussy to put on. Dress for dinner. Jacket and tie required for admission to this club, etc. None of this has to do with having sex.

Imo, women dress the way described in the OP for several reasons, which may vary from individual to individual and social context to social context.

In no particular order:

1. Status (as you mention).
2. Peer approval or group bonding.
3. Sexual display.
4. Attracting men (not necessarily for sex or even romance).
5. Fun.
6. Self-image (dressing to please themselves).

Face make-up and perhaps red lipstick especially (or cheek rouge) is a case in point, I think. It's an aphrodisiac to men and carries an underlying component of sexual display (as do exposed cleavage, exposed legs and high heels), but it is, or was, also a status thing. Wealthy women could afford the leisure time and expense of either applying make up or having it applied.

Imo, sexual display is often in there, sometimes unbeknownst to the girl or woman, as is attracting men. Neither of course means that the girl or woman wants to have sex, and certainly not with just any man who happens to be aroused or attracted. And certainly it does not mean that the girl or woman is either encouraging sexual assault or rape. As far as I understand it, such things are not positively correlated with being sexually assaulted or raped in any case.

I don’t understand why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain silent about why they behave as they do. Maybe you would care to offer some insight? Is it because men feel they have greater insight into the motivations and emotional lives of women than women do? Is it because men are reluctant to talk about their own emotional lives or why they do what they do? For instance, why would any man wear white tube socks with sandals? Who, exactly is a man trying to attract with that look? Or with mutton chops? A beer belly? That eerie pale glow that comes from too much time in front of computer screens? Or is it that men cannot bear to consider that they are not at the center of any woman's every waking moment and every thought and motivation, however unconscious?

 

[sharon45]

I don’t understand why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain silent about why they behave as they do.

Who is saying that they do either besides you here?

 

[Toni]

I don’t understand why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain silent about why they behave as they do.

Who is saying that they do either besides you here?

I'll do you the courtesy of suggesting that you re-read the responses of some of the men in this thread.

And I will also ask you why you decided to call me out for asking why men feel they are such experts on why girls and women do anything yet remain pretty darn silent when men wax all poetical about how girls and women dress 'sexy' for the purpose of attracting men, contrary to the statements of the OP. Care to comment?