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Contemplating short dresses and cleavage on teens

So the other day I find myself staring at photos of young men in beach attire. As I'm looking at the pictures, I can tell by the looks on their faces...they feel exactly the same thing I do about X. It's amazing, but every photo, each group of guys, I can just tell 100% they feel exactly like I do about X. You know...SOME PEOPLE feel totally different about X.

group-of-guys-taking-selfie_rcxwxgege_thumbnail-full01.png

Anyone here willing to be my imaginary adversary that holds position X? Anyone want to debate against the 100% known feeling, motivations and opinions of these young men, whom I've spoken for? I can find 100 more photos with each guy in it willing to back my argument 100% by virtue of their smiles.

:shrug:
 
So the other day I find myself staring at photos of young men in beach attire. As I'm looking at the pictures, I can tell by the looks on their faces...they feel exactly the same thing I do about X. It's amazing, but every photo, each group of guys, I can just tell 100% they feel exactly like I do about X. You know...SOME PEOPLE feel totally different about X.

Anyone here willing to be my imaginary adversary that holds position X? Anyone want to debate against the 100% known feeling, motivations and opinions of these young men, whom I've spoken for? I can find 100 more photos with each guy in it willing to back my argument 100% by virtue of their smiles.

:shrug:

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, but if it's what I think it is, I agree with you. :)
 
Oh.. THAT paradox, the one I'm not touching with a ten-foot pole :)

Reluctance noted and understood. I might just say there's no need to brag, big boy. Lol. See how that works? I, ahem, attributed you with being sexual, so to me you were, so now I can flirt with you and maybe touch your leg. I know you want me to. :)
 
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I myself will put away my ten-inch pole though and go there.

I think it's too complicated to say whether clothing, make up etc play or don't play a part as a risk factor for sexual harassment, assault & rape. For starters, there are so many variables. They might as regards some men but not others. They might in certain situations and not others. It may even vary from country to country. They might for certain types of harassment/assault and not others.

In any case, they are only one part of a big picture, others would be related to personality, behaviour, level of alcohol consumption (if any) and of course level of conformity of the girl or woman to societal norms of beauty (separately from anything to do with clothes or make up) or her age.

And then on the male side (I'm temporarily talking about male and female heterosexuals here) there are, in addition to anything related to seeing clothing, make up etc, many other factors, such as level of prior intent (including criminal intent, if it is present), attitudes towards the opposite sex, attitudes towards themselves (including their own masculinity), degree of self-control, capacity for sexual arousal, level of alcohol consumption, psychology generally (eg inability to empathise sufficiently and/or lack of self-awareness), level of aggressiveness (including exercise of power), how much if anything the man knows of the woman beforehand, subscription to rape-myth beliefs, tendency to attribute sexual intent, and so on and so on, and I may have missed a few.

What I would venture to say is that even if clothing, make up etc are, in some situations and cases, risk factors, it surely can't be a strong correlation or a big risk (especially given the occurrence of numerous examples where it was not a factor) and/or cannot be seen in isolation anyway. Also, there simply may not be good data, not least because so many instances of harassment, assault and rape go unreported. And then there is the distinction between risk factors, issues of personal responsibility and blame, which are all not the same things.

One thing I have noticed is that if you go online, it is actually (I found) very difficult to find studies (ie more than anecdotes or examples) regarding whether clothing, make up etc are correlated to risk of the various types of harassments and assaults or not. If anyone has any citations, I'd be grateful. What is easy to find are studies on attribution, for example studies that confirm perceptions and beliefs about how clothing, make up etc affect the issue. And that is a slightly different thing.

But regarding that, one thing seems to be clear. Men generally or often get it wrong. Women too, when assessing other women. But men more so.
 
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She Dresses to Attract, He Perceives Seduction: A Gender Gap in Attribution of Intent to Women’s Revealing Style of Dress and its Relation to Blaming the Victims of Sexual Violence
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/48828467.pdf

An example of the sort of 'attributions/perceptions' study I found. Study from 2010. Lots of interesting stuff in the general preamble, and then the actual study, done in Israel using college students (321 participants). Note that the study used self-reporting to obtain data, so in that sense I think it is 'soft' data.

From the study:

Women's Self-Reported Motivation for Wearing Revealing Clothes
In the direct assessment of the motivation for wearing revealing clothes, female
participants who reported an inclination to dress in this fashion at least some of the time
(63% of the female sample) were asked about their intentions in doing so. The majority
of these women, 82.1%, identified a liking for this look as their primary motive for
adopting it. A wish to look attractive was endorsed by 72% of the women as their second
reason. Only 3.2% said they had intended to arouse men with their style of clothing, and
the percentage of those who meant to seduce was a mere 5.3%. Very few women
reported a desire to be touched or stared at as their motivation for dressing this way, 2.1%
and 2.3% respectively.


Men's self-reported attitudes towards women's body-revealing dress
In response to direct questioning regarding their perceptions of women's
sexualized appearance, men expressed a belief that temptation and seduction are the
primary intentions of women who dress that way. To the questions of whether they
assumed that women dressed in sexy clothing were trying to arouse them or elicit sexual
advances from them, 30.6% and 20.2% respectively stated that those were uniformly the
intentions, in their opinion. An additional 53.2% and 55.6% thought those were the
intentions most of the time.


Conclusions
In summing up the present findings, several major conclusions become apparent. While the myth accusing women of asking for sexual intrusions with their sexualized appearance seems to have been dispelled, evidence for an unmistakable gender-based attribution gap concerning the intentions underlying this type of wear did emerge. While this confusion appears not to relate to the actual occurrence of sexual violence, it nonetheless deserves serious attention inasmuch as it is linked to an unfortunate misunderstanding between the sexes, and a possible greater likelihood to endorse victim- blaming accusations. Thus, even though this study is limited by the use of college students as well as projective materials, its findings could, nonetheless, potentially bridge this gender gap by making men aware of their misattributions regarding the motivations for women's sexualized look, while at the same time informing women of men's misperception of their actual motivation for dressing revealingly. The clarification of these divergent stances should allow not only for improved communication between the sexes, but also for a potential reduction in the blaming of victims of sexual assault, as well as possibly even in the incidence of sexual violence itself.
 
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Swimwear and beach attire is a specific context that we have not really touched on, prior to you posting that pic. It raises two (to me) interesting aspects.

The first is that of all the situations in which people wear revealing clothing but have a reason for doing so other than sex, this is one where the odds of it being anything to do with sex are likely much lower.

The second thing is, away from swimwear, how do men, generally, dress if (if) they do want to indicate sexual intent or display? I'm thinking (and it's only my impression) that we don't, really, do that, at least not in the same way. We might dress to indicate wealth or status (we might even park the Porsche outside where it can be seen, or at least flash the car key) but..dressing to indicate that we might want sex.....? Any thoughts? Obviously we can indicate such things through behaviour, but I'm not talking about that. And again I'm temporarily talking about heterosexuality here.

Perhaps someone can find pics to illustrate than we men can and do sometimes dress for that, but would they be the norm? Furthermore, would it generally be misinterpreted as often as the reverse scenario? Probably not, imo, because (again speculating) women are by and large less often 'looking' to have sex (and may indeed not be as 'visual' in terms of decoding what they see or how it may or may not attract them anyway). Plus there may be fewer misattributions because the perceptions may more often be correct.

And if (if) there is misreading of situations, for women misreading men, it may be that that could involve (a) not realising what men are thinking, including what they are misattributing and (b) not being fully aware of how far, how badly wrong, it can go, how, in other words what a man is capable of doing or might do. And don't tell me that girls and women already know this. There is truth in that, yes (depending on the girl or woman), and it would be wrong to patronise and assume lack of knowledge, and most girls and women will know relevant stuff, but I think the way harassments, assaults and rapes play out (perhaps especially date rapes, including with boys and men the girl or woman knew or thought she knew beforehand) there is still room for caution and misattribution, and not just on the part of the woman, since men and boys themselves may not be fully self-aware regarding what they might or might not do, and this is borne out in statements made by rapists expressing surprise and remorse after the event. Some will say that it was as if 'the animal' in them took them over.

This is all very general of course. It will not necessarily apply to individuals, and there are surely overlaps in terms of the sexes sharing similarities as well as differences and everything will be on a spectrum.
 
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Quick thought, but staying on the topic of male 'cleavage' (or whatever the male equivalent is) and exposure of bodies:

Back in 'my day' there used to be a phenomenon called 'Medallion Man'. You can google it for images. These are among the first to come up on my screen:

1.jpeg

2608_bobguccione_g.jpeg

And there are modern equivalents:

christian-combs-BEN-RAYNER-04.jpg

He's even showing his panty tops and his trousers are already part the way down!

As for on the beach....

d65f3e5c6ef629c1adb9795d179ac9c9.jpg

Tattoos are an interesting one. Used to signal....lots of things. Including sex or sexuality? Or misread (perhaps by men viewing women with tattoos) as such?

Jewelry (worn by either sex) is interesting too (especially perhaps its word origins associated with 'play', 'jeu' in French). Also hairstyle.
 
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Quick thought, but staying on the topic of male 'cleavage' (or whatever the male equivalent is) and exposure of bodies:

Back in 'my day' there used to be a phenomenon called 'Medallion Man'. You can google it for images. These are among the first to come up on my screen:

View attachment 20066

View attachment 20067

And there are modern equivalents:

View attachment 20069

He's even showing his panty tops and his trousers are already part the way down!

As for on the beach....

View attachment 20068

Tattoos are an interesting one. Used to signal....lots of things. Including sex or sexuality? Or misread (perhaps by men viewing women with tattoos) as such?

Jewelry (worn by either sex) is interesting too (especially perhaps its word origins associated with 'play', 'jeu' in French). Also hairstyle.


I have been starring at those photos long enough that I realized by looking in to each of their eyes that they feel exactly like I do...that they are not dressing up with their medallions and well oiled muscular bodies so they can be deemed "sexy" by yourself of any other person. They aren't dressing this way to turn women on. They are just enjoying themselves having fun and expressing it.

I know this 100% by looking at their photos. Did you know there are SOME people out there that would look at these photos and decided these guys were looking to get laid. Hmmmpf! Pigs! And if THAT's not enough evidence for you, I have a couple of friends that also say they dress up in speedos and medallions just so they can be happy about themselves, not so women can look at them like they want sex or are to be ogled. Therefore, obviously everyone who is decent agrees with me.

What's wrong with this type of argument?
 
What's wrong with this type of argument?

Hmmm. What’s wrong seems to be you: jumping in thinking this thread is about making statements about the motivations of professional models/actors rather than high school stuents who are personally known to the commenter.

But,
You knew that.
 
What's wrong with this type of argument?

Hmmm. What’s wrong seems to be you: jumping in thinking this thread is about making statements about the motivations of professional models/actors rather than high school stuents who are personally known to the commenter.

But,
You knew that.

Let's see here...you're the one who has gone on and on in this thread about how you are a 100% mind reader based on smiles of several HS girls from several schools. You later went on to use yourself, your mind reading capabilities and the agreement of a few female members of this board to somehow mean you speak for "women". Not yourself, your handful of like minded friends. specifically for "women".

Now maybe things have really changed around here, and maybe now, saying I know what other people are thinking and they agree with me as some way of strengthening and argument or my personal feelings somehow are evidence that most or all other people in a group feel the same way. But from what I saw reading this thread, it starts off with a horrible premise, has nothing to support it and it's a great example of a horrible way to make a case.

You could take a fucking year book from any school on the planet and it doesn't matter if you've met every person in the book. You can't tell by the smile on a girls face or by what they are wearing whether they are "girls just want to have fun" or "I hope I get the shit fucked out of me tonight by (insert school crush)" because there are all types of girls just like there are all types of boys and some girls do just dress up because it makes them feel good, and some girls like to put on the fuck me pumps because they want to get fucked.

It is just as ignorant and foolish to profess that a person knows what a woman's intentions are by their dress as it is for the creeps you're eluding to looking at them and saying "I can tell by looking at them that they all want to fuck".

They do not speak for women, they speak for their stupid selves. The same goes both ways.
 
It is just as ignorant and foolish to profess that a person knows what a woman's intentions are by their dress as it is for the creeps you're eluding to looking at them and saying "I can tell by looking at them that they all want to fuck".

Nobody has said that in this thread. So please drop that.

Humans conflate human aesthetics with sexual attractiveness. We do it on a basic level. Everything we like about a persons look can be traced back to sex, or rather things that signal either availability or genetic health or whatever. This is unavoidable. It doesn't really matter what the girls think they're doing, or what they're telling eachother they're doing, we can see what they're doing from a distance. They're making themselves look sexy. You'd have to be a complete moron not to connect those dots.

We are fundamentally sexual beings. Denying that comes across as self delusion to the n'th degree.
 
I have been starring at those photos long enough that I realized by looking in to each of their eyes that they feel exactly like I do...that they are not dressing up with their medallions and well oiled muscular bodies so they can be deemed "sexy" by yourself of any other person. They aren't dressing this way to turn women on. They are just enjoying themselves having fun and expressing it.

I know this 100% by looking at their photos. Did you know there are SOME people out there that would look at these photos and decided these guys were looking to get laid. Hmmmpf! Pigs! And if THAT's not enough evidence for you, I have a couple of friends that also say they dress up in speedos and medallions just so they can be happy about themselves, not so women can look at them like they want sex or are to be ogled. Therefore, obviously everyone who is decent agrees with me.

What's wrong with this type of argument?

You do have a point, imo. Or maybe three. Yes, one or two have decried mind reading while mind reading. Yes, if the OP was only meant to be about 'girls I know' then it is of limited use for discussion of the issues. Yes saying that girls (or indeed anyone, male or female) only ever dress purely to please themselves doesn't have any legs to stand on, if you'll excuse the analogy, or is at least overstated. The phrase 'dress to impress' has common currency for a reason. This says nothing about an individual's choice in any one case of course, or their rights to cover up or reveal or appear as they choose (within legal limits, which some might say are a bit prudish regarding nudity but that's a slightly separate issue).

Yes, the point about the male pics being celebrities is largely... beside the point. Non-celebrities could have been shown as easily, and some of the relevant issues affect female celebrities anyway.

But beyond that, wider issues remain, imo. Men, generally, and indeed other women to a lesser extent, tend to misattribute the reasons why girls (and women) dress, groom, make up and otherwise modify or enhance their appearance in certain (numerous) ways. There is at least a disjoint in understanding and a miscommunication. And this can lead to problems. What sort of problems? Not necessarily rape or assault, obviously, but there's still several others. One, for example, is the victim-blaming (and sometimes slut-shaming) that goes on in the minds of many (including other women, but mostly men) if there's a problematic incident (could be staring, comments, harassment, unwanted attention or touching, physical assault or even rape). I could go on. I've already said a lot in previous posts. The issue is nuanced and complicated. I just wanted to say that I agree with your points of criticism but that there's a lot of other stuff too which is valid, imo.
 
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I was thinking. Underwear is an interesting aspect of this, because unlike what we have mostly been talking about, it's not 'public' and therefore in theory can't be a display of...anything. Except of course if it can be glimpsed, or detected (or indeed the lack of it detected) through outer clothing. But if it is actually 'private' then it would seem like a good candidate for something that people wear 'for themselves'. With the caveat that no one knows if or when it may be seen, unless they are planning or hoping for it to be seen (if they have seduction in mind) or, in case they have an accident and end up in a hospital emergency department. :)
 
I was thinking. Underwear is an interesting aspect of this, because unlike what we have mostly been talking about, it's not 'public' and therefore in theory can't be a display of...anything. Except of course if it can be glimpsed, or detected (or indeed the lack of it detected) through outer clothing. But if it is actually 'private' then it would seem like a good candidate for something that people wear 'for themselves'. With the caveat that no one knows if or when it may be seen, unless they are planning or hoping for it to be seen (if they have seduction in mind) or, in case they have an accident and end up in a hospital emergency department. :)

Doesn't disprove it. We can still dress sexy for someone imaginary. Or we can make ourselves a sexual object, to ourselves. Humans have self reflexive brains. My ex wife would many times stay home, make herself pretty, take long baths and sensually rub herself all over with fragrant oils and whatnot. It was her "me" time.

I'd argue that if we make ourselves look sexy we are doing it to an imaginary gaze of a person sexually attracted to us. And that's what we mean when we say we are doing it for ourselves. It makes no sense, specifically enhancing our sexual characteristics, if nobody (not even imaginary) can see it.
 
So, all of the little old ladies, who used to be my patients, had their hair done and dressed in their favorite clothing just because they are sexual beings? Or could it be that women dress to enhance their own self esteem or to fit in with their in-group, or to conform with the expectations of society?

We are more than simply sexual beings? That's what some of you don't seem to understand. If you only identify yourself as a sexual being, fine, just don't project that identity on the rest of us.

One more time. Generally speaking women, including young women, don't dress to please men or to attract male attention. We don't need to do that. Plus, if you lived in my town, you will see a lot of women wearing baggy sweat pants, and loose tops. Do they dress that way to attract men, or are heterosexual men simply attracted to women regardless of how we dress? I personally think it's the latter, based on my experience as a woman for my entire life. We also don't need men to tell us why we do the things we do. That's just obnoxious.
 
So, all of the little old ladies, who used to be my patients, had their hair done and dressed in their favorite clothing just because they are sexual beings? Or could it be that women dress to enhance their own self esteem or to fit in with their in-group, or to conform with the expectations of society?

We are more than simply sexual beings? That's what some of you don't seem to understand. If you only identify yourself as a sexual being, fine, just don't project that identity on the rest of us.

Then why are they enhancing sexually attractive characteristics? And why wouldn't little old ladies like to feel sexy?

Yes, we are more than sexual beings. There's plenty of things in our appearance that we can play around with that hasn't got to do with sexual attraction. A lot of people do. It's not hard to tell which are which, is it? Some parts of our dress are about looking fancy, tasteful or rich. No sex involved. Or they can do other things than fiddle with their appearance. But if a woman wears stuff to create an hourglass profile, push up her tits and/or wear shoes to tilt her pelvis back there's no question about what she's doing. Consciously or subconsciously.

BTW, we are social beings. "Conforming to social norms and expectations of society" is what we do. Humans are inherently tribal. I don't like how it's seen as something bad to conform to social norms. How about us stopping with trying to shame people for that? People who don't follow the current fashion, all that means is that they're always following the last seasons fashions. Everybody follows fashion. To their best ability. Nobody has their own unique and special taste. It's all derivative in some sense. I think fashionistas don't get enough understanding or love from the educated classes. I think they're doing a great service to mankind.

One more time. Generally speaking women, including young women, don't dress to please men or to attract male attention. We don't need to do that. Plus, if you lived in my town, you will see a lot of women wearing baggy sweat pants, and loose tops. Do they dress that way to attract men, or are heterosexual men simply attracted to women regardless of how we dress? I personally think it's the latter, based on my experience as a woman for my entire life. We also don't need men to tell us why we do the things we do. That's just obnoxious.

It depends how they're wearing it. Wearing baggy, loose fitting clothes can make you look skinnier than you are. Fashion is often ingeniously designed to hide unflattering things, while showing off the flattering things you have. Sexy fashion for overweight people is it's own universe.
 
My ex wife would many times stay home, make herself pretty, take long baths and sensually rub herself all over with fragrant oils and whatnot. It was her "me" time.

But her 'me' times was not 'for herself'. Or something.

I'm not sure how to explain myself more clearly. She can make herself look more sexually attractive to some imaginary man or men order to feel better about herself even if she's alone in the room. She's still making herself more into a desired sexual object.

It's a bit like a gun is for shooting people. It doesn't matter if you wear a gun or hang it on the wall because it's pretty. A huge part of why we like guns is because they can shoot people. There's nothing anybody can do to explain that away. Even if you drill it out, so it can't physically shoot anybody. It's aestetic value still comes from it's association. Did that metaphor clear it up?
 
Some pictures of people not doing something for themselves:

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depositphotos_6256994-stock-photo-woman-take-bubble-bath.jpg

441c03fa20f58eb70746eab976be96b9.jpeg

maxresdefault.jpg

In the last one, we see that the woman is holding something which looks a bit like a man's giant testicle. No doubt she is fantasising about Homer Simpson. We men know that size counts with the ladies. Goodness knows what she is doing with her left hand.
 
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