"Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

[barbos]

It appears effective vaccines against Covid-19 are easy to develop.

Everything appears easy when you let large numbers of highly motivated experts do all the work.

Are you saying HIV vaccine researchers were not motivated?
We have 3 vaccines with more than 90% efficiency already.

 

[bilby]

It appears effective vaccines against Covid-19 are easy to develop.

Everything appears easy when you let large numbers of highly motivated experts do all the work.

Are you saying HIV vaccine researchers were not motivated?
We have 3 vaccines with more than 90% efficiency already.

HIV vaccine research never came close to having the priority for funding that was given to COVID vaccine research.

And of course, different problems will likely have different times to resolution ceteris paribus. It's reasonable to expect that a vaccine against a virus that directly targets the immune system might be particularly difficult to develop.

I wouldn't bet against developing three HIV vaccines in a year, if the mechanism of transmission of HIV were similar to that of COVID. The fatality figures for AIDS in that scenario would be terrifying though. (As indeed the fatality figures for COVID are).

 

[barbos]

HIV vaccine took orders of magnitude more funding than C19. It's just all attempts to make HIV vaccine have failed.
Here we have a number of of attempts and ALL of them not only succeeded but succeeded spectacularly. >90% efficiency is remarkable.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/15/health/Covid-doctors-nurses-quitting.html

Two years ago, Dr. Kelly McGregory opened her own pediatric practice just outside Minneapolis, where she could spend as much time as she wanted with patients and parents could get all of their questions answered.

But just as her practice was beginning to thrive, the coronavirus hit the United States and began spreading across the country.

“As an independent practice with no real connection to a big health system, it was awful,” Dr. McGregory said. At one point, she had only three surgical masks left and worried that she could no longer safely treat patients.

Families were also staying away, concerned about catching the virus. “I did some telemedicine, but it wasn’t enough volume to really replace what I was doing in the clinic,” she said.
After her husband found a new job in a different state, Dr. McGregory, 49, made the difficult decision to close her practice in August. “It was devastating,” she said. “That was my baby.”

Many other doctors are also calling it quits. Thousands of medical practices have closed during the pandemic, according to a July survey of 3,500 doctors by the Physicians Foundation, a nonprofit group. About 8 percent of the doctors reported closing their offices in recent months, which the foundation estimated could equal some 16,000 practices. Another 4 percent said they planned to shutter within the next year.

Other doctors and nurses are retiring early or leaving their jobs. Some worry about their own health because of age or a medical condition that puts them at high risk. Others stopped practicing during the worst of the outbreaks and don’t have the energy to start again. Some simply need a break from the toll that the pandemic has taken among their ranks and their patients.

I can't imagine how nurses who work in hospitals or nursing homes are coping during this pandemic. The same goes for doctors. If fucking people would practice the guidelines, wear masks, social distance, stay away from churches and other large gatherings, the numbers would likely be much lower. I heard a nurse on MSNBC say earlier today that some of her patients who died of the virus were still calling it a hoax on their death beds. WTF! Trump and his cronies have really done a great job of getting people to think that this horrible disease is a Democratic hoax. There was already a nursing shortage but after this, good luck trying to get adequate care if you get seriously ill.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/15/health/Covid-doctors-nurses-quitting.html

Two years ago, Dr. Kelly McGregory opened her own pediatric practice just outside Minneapolis, where she could spend as much time as she wanted with patients and parents could get all of their questions answered.

But just as her practice was beginning to thrive, the coronavirus hit the United States and began spreading across the country.

“As an independent practice with no real connection to a big health system, it was awful,” Dr. McGregory said. At one point, she had only three surgical masks left and worried that she could no longer safely treat patients.

Families were also staying away, concerned about catching the virus. “I did some telemedicine, but it wasn’t enough volume to really replace what I was doing in the clinic,” she said.
After her husband found a new job in a different state, Dr. McGregory, 49, made the difficult decision to close her practice in August. “It was devastating,” she said. “That was my baby.”

Many other doctors are also calling it quits. Thousands of medical practices have closed during the pandemic, according to a July survey of 3,500 doctors by the Physicians Foundation, a nonprofit group. About 8 percent of the doctors reported closing their offices in recent months, which the foundation estimated could equal some 16,000 practices. Another 4 percent said they planned to shutter within the next year.

Other doctors and nurses are retiring early or leaving their jobs. Some worry about their own health because of age or a medical condition that puts them at high risk. Others stopped practicing during the worst of the outbreaks and don’t have the energy to start again. Some simply need a break from the toll that the pandemic has taken among their ranks and their patients.

I can't imagine how nurses who work in hospitals or nursing homes are coping during this pandemic. The same goes for doctors. If fucking people would practice the guidelines, wear masks, social distance, stay away from churches and other large gatherings, the numbers would likely be much lower. I heard a nurse on MSNBC say earlier today that some of her patients who died of the virus were still calling it a hoax on their death beds. WTF! Trump and his cronies have really done a great job of getting people to think that this horrible disease is a Democratic hoax. There was already a nursing shortage but after this, good luck trying to get adequate care if you get seriously ill.

Don't blame Trumpo for the fact that there are millions and millions and millions of superstitious idiots out there who live for the next conspiracy theory. They are intellectual and scientific illiterates. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! Trumpo is just one of those millions.

If those millions upon millions of scientific illiterates out there were not scientifically illiterate, Trumpo would have had about as much luck finding the White House as finding a herd of flying pigs on a submarine. Sure, Trumpo is a scientific illiterate, but without all the other illiterates he's just a punk selling houses.

 

[repoman]

Let me be clear, I am not trying to be a kooky Qanoner with this question. Getting a handle on the debunking of this fear if it is misplaced would be good be have at the ready.

Is there a Reader's Digest level allaying of fear that I have about mRNA vaccine technology having even a remote chance of causing cancer?

Doesn't the mRNA going haywire cause cancer? HPV causes cancer somehow, could an mRNA HPV vaccine accidentally do the same thing? Yes this is not an HPV vaccine, I know.

This is a good EU government article from, April:

https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccines.html

 

[bilby]

Let me be clear, I am not trying to be a kooky Qanoner with this question. Getting a handle on the debunking of this fear if it is misplaced would be good be have at the ready.

Is there a Reader's Digest level allaying of fear that I have about mRNA vaccine technology having even a remote chance of causing cancer?

Doesn't the mRNA going haywire cause cancer? HPV causes cancer somehow, could an mRNA HPV vaccine accidentally do the same thing? Yes this is not an HPV vaccine, I know.

This is a good EU government article from, April:

https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccines.html

mRNA is present in almost all of your cells, almost all of the time. The "m" stands for "messenger"; It's a communications system.

Your concern is analogous to saying:

"Blueprints are used to make nuclear weapons; Should I be worried that the guys building my house are using blueprints? What if they accidentally built a nuclear bomb instead of a house?".

Or perhaps "Telephones are used to send launch orders to missile silos. What if I phone to make a doctor's appointment, and accidentally start World War III?".

 

[repoman]

Ok, then to a non biology professional, how does HPV cause cancer by screwing up our genetic material?

from Quest Diagnostics:

http://education.questdiagnostics.com/faq/FAQ129v1

Question 1. Why order the HPV mRNA E6/E7 test instead of a high-risk HPV DNA test?

The HPV mRNA E6/E7 test uses the Aptima® HPV mRNA method, which is shown to be more specific than an HPV DNA test.1,2 This can lead to fewer false-positive results and unnecessary invasive procedures such as, colposcopy and biopsy.

The mRNA test determines the presence of E6/E7 mRNA from 14 high-risk HPV genotypes. HPV E6/E7 oncoproteins mediate the development of cervical cancer. Their overexpression, which can be measured as E6/E7 messenger RNA (mRNA) transcripts, is associated with a significantly increased risk of CIN and cervical cancer.3,4

 

[bilby]

Ok, then to a non biology professional, how does HPV cause cancer? By screwing up our genetic material.

FTFY.

You answered your own question.

Viruses work by using our cells to do what the virus codes for, rather than what our own genome codes for. A large part of what any successful virus codes for is manufacturing of more virus; But many also do stuff that improves their success rate by modifying other cellular functions. Causing cells to multiply in an uncontrolled manner is one strategy that can lead to the making of more virus, but uncontrolled multiplying of cells isn't good for the long term health of the host (we refer to such runaway cell replication as 'cancer'). It's not a common strategy amongst viruses. HPV is one human virus that has evolved that strategy.

It's got nothing to do with RNA as such, just as the plot of Harry Potter doesn't have anything to do with ink and paper. Ink and paper are needed to make a book, but there's no risk that your copy of War and Peace might turn into a copy of The Deathly Hallows - even though they share ink and paper in common.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ok, then to a non biology professional, how does HPV cause cancer by screwing up our genetic material?

from Quest Diagnostics:

http://education.questdiagnostics.com/faq/FAQ129v1

Question 1. Why order the HPV mRNA E6/E7 test instead of a high-risk HPV DNA test?

The HPV mRNA E6/E7 test uses the Aptima® HPV mRNA method, which is shown to be more specific than an HPV DNA test.1,2 This can lead to fewer false-positive results and unnecessary invasive procedures such as, colposcopy and biopsy.

The mRNA test determines the presence of E6/E7 mRNA from 14 high-risk HPV genotypes. HPV E6/E7 oncoproteins mediate the development of cervical cancer. Their overexpression, which can be measured as E6/E7 messenger RNA (mRNA) transcripts, is associated with a significantly increased risk of CIN and cervical cancer.3,4

DNA is the pen, mRNA is what it wrote. Think of the wanted lists that used to be at post offices. An ordinary vaccine is like that, give the body practice at recognizing the disease so it's stomped on immediately when it shows up. A mRNA vaccine is directions on how to draw a picture rather than an actual picture. Our cells pick up the mRNA, execute it, make the fake bad guys and let the body practice against them. Once the body is done with the order it's discarded like any other such order. Only the DNA is permanent.

 

[repoman]

Ok, then to a non biology professional, how does HPV cause cancer by screwing up our genetic material?

from Quest Diagnostics:

http://education.questdiagnostics.com/faq/FAQ129v1

Question 1. Why order the HPV mRNA E6/E7 test instead of a high-risk HPV DNA test?

The HPV mRNA E6/E7 test uses the Aptima® HPV mRNA method, which is shown to be more specific than an HPV DNA test.1,2 This can lead to fewer false-positive results and unnecessary invasive procedures such as, colposcopy and biopsy.

The mRNA test determines the presence of E6/E7 mRNA from 14 high-risk HPV genotypes. HPV E6/E7 oncoproteins mediate the development of cervical cancer. Their overexpression, which can be measured as E6/E7 messenger RNA (mRNA) transcripts, is associated with a significantly increased risk of CIN and cervical cancer.3,4

DNA is the pen, mRNA is what it wrote. Think of the wanted lists that used to be at post offices. An ordinary vaccine is like that, give the body practice at recognizing the disease so it's stomped on immediately when it shows up. A mRNA vaccine is directions on how to draw a picture rather than an actual picture. Our cells pick up the mRNA, execute it, make the fake bad guys and let the body practice against them. Once the body is done with the order it's discarded like any other such order. Only the DNA is permanent.

So, you are saying the changes that HPV made to the cell DNA (HDD) are written out by the mRNA (RAM)? I guess this test is focusing on the mRNA because it if more accurate/specific for THIS exact situation.

So, just normal cell activity will flush out even cancer causing mRNA fairly quickly with new orders from the DNA?

These dumb ass questions I am asking are what the general public will have as well.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

DNA is the pen, mRNA is what it wrote. Think of the wanted lists that used to be at post offices. An ordinary vaccine is like that, give the body practice at recognizing the disease so it's stomped on immediately when it shows up. A mRNA vaccine is directions on how to draw a picture rather than an actual picture. Our cells pick up the mRNA, execute it, make the fake bad guys and let the body practice against them. Once the body is done with the order it's discarded like any other such order. Only the DNA is permanent.

So, you are saying the changes that HPV made to the cell DNA (HDD) are written out by the mRNA (RAM)? I guess this test is focusing on the mRNA because it if more accurate/specific for THIS exact situation.

Yes. DNA is the master program, mRNA is how it issues orders.

So, just normal cell activity will flush out even cancer causing mRNA fairly quickly with new orders from the DNA?

These dumb ass questions I am asking are what the general public will have as well.

Cancer-causing mRNA doesn't make sense as it won't get reproduced at cell division. Even if it told the cell to do become cancer the tumor couldn't grow because the new cells it produced would not be cancerous.

Note that HPV is a DNA virus. It's possible for bits to get into a cell's DNA. (Quite a bit of our DNA is actually from infections. Usually bad, once in a blue moon it's good.)

 

[Treedbear]

I'm wondering how much of a role CRISPR played in the vaccine development. Is Cas9 involved?

 

[repoman]

In the theme of "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own"...

Seems like the people who need the vaccine most are the people who it will work least on.

Not just restricted to Covid-19 but for all vaccines, what about people have weak/slow immune responses to the virus and I assume a weak/slow responses to the vaccine? For the mass herd of people getting vaccinated it seems like the strong and average responders will be helping to protect the weak by helping to push R well below 1. But they are still in a fair amount, barely reduced level of danger if they get infected at all, right?

What is the timeline for the immunocompromised to have an acceptable risk after the mass vaccination, and what is that risk level numerically?

However for medium responders, yeah this vaccine should be great and make the difference between severe sickness or death and shaking it off before getting very sick.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

In the theme of "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own"...

Seems like the people who need the vaccine most are the people who it will work least on.

Not just restricted to Covid-19 but for all vaccines, what about people have weak/slow immune responses to the virus and I assume a weak/slow responses to the vaccine? For the mass herd of people getting vaccinated it seems like the strong and average responders will be helping to protect the weak by helping to push R well below 1. But they are still in a fair amount, barely reduced level of danger if they get infected at all, right?

What is the timeline for the immunocompromised to have an acceptable risk after the mass vaccination, and what is that risk level numerically?

However for medium responders, yeah this vaccine should be great and make the difference between severe sickness or death and shaking it off before getting very sick.

It depends. One of the key questions which I believe is still unanswered is how much the vaccine stops you from getting the virus as opposed to the virus not affecting you, basically remaining in an asymptomatic state. If there's a bunch of the latter, then a bunch of vaccinated people going around breathing maskless will still kill off the immunocompromised.

 

[blastula]

In the theme of "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own"...

Seems like the people who need the vaccine most are the people who it will work least on.

Not just restricted to Covid-19 but for all vaccines, what about people have weak/slow immune responses to the virus and I assume a weak/slow responses to the vaccine? For the mass herd of people getting vaccinated it seems like the strong and average responders will be helping to protect the weak by helping to push R well below 1. But they are still in a fair amount, barely reduced level of danger if they get infected at all, right?

What is the timeline for the immunocompromised to have an acceptable risk after the mass vaccination, and what is that risk level numerically?

However for medium responders, yeah this vaccine should be great and make the difference between severe sickness or death and shaking it off before getting very sick.

The immunocompromised can still benefit from monoclonals, and should be near front of line for getting it when available. Assuming that therapy is for real.

 

[barbos]

In the theme of "God Bless the Child That's Got His Own"...

Seems like the people who need the vaccine most are the people who it will work least on.

Not just restricted to Covid-19 but for all vaccines, what about people have weak/slow immune responses to the virus and I assume a weak/slow responses to the vaccine? For the mass herd of people getting vaccinated it seems like the strong and average responders will be helping to protect the weak by helping to push R well below 1. But they are still in a fair amount, barely reduced level of danger if they get infected at all, right?

What is the timeline for the immunocompromised to have an acceptable risk after the mass vaccination, and what is that risk level numerically?

However for medium responders, yeah this vaccine should be great and make the difference between severe sickness or death and shaking it off before getting very sick.

It depends. One of the key questions which I believe is still unanswered is how much the vaccine stops you from getting the virus as opposed to the virus not affecting you, basically remaining in an asymptomatic state. If there's a bunch of the latter, then a bunch of vaccinated people going around breathing maskless will still kill off the immunocompromised.

Usually, vaccine would prevent you from getting (very) infectious. But with this virus, you just don't know what to expect.
People with light symptoms or even no symptoms have much higher viral load and then still have massive different organ damage.
it could be that in long term no light symptoms is as bad or maybe worse than heavy symptoms.

 

[repoman]

How can they tease out organ damage from asymptomatic Covid-19 versus damage from just living in our industrial disease society (life sucks) via long term hypertension, (pre)-diabetes and so on?

 

[blastula]

A potential problem for Pfizer/Moderna vaccine compliance is the unpleasant side effects, which may discourage recipients from getting the second dose.

Covid vaccine: CDC should warn people the side effects from shots won't be 'walk in the park'

Participants in Moderna and Pfizer’s coronavirus vaccine trials told CNBC in September that they were experiencing high fever, body aches, bad headaches, daylong exhaustion and other symptoms after receiving the shots. While the symptoms were uncomfortable, and at times intense, the participants said they often went away after a day, sometimes sooner, and that it was better than getting Covid-19.

Both companies acknowledged that their vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with mild Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache.

One North Carolina woman in the Moderna study who is in her 50s said she didn’t experience a fever but suffered a bad migraine that left her drained for a day and unable to focus. She said she woke up the next day feeling better after taking Excedrin but added that Moderna may need to tell people to take a day off after a second dose.

“If this proves to work, people are going to have to toughen up,” she said. “The first dose is no big deal. And then the second dose will definitely put you down for the day for sure. ... You will need to take a day off after the second dose.”

Johnson & Johnson's vaccine is a single dose and could be ready for approval in January.

 

[barbos]

How can they tease out organ damage from asymptomatic Covid-19 versus damage from just living in our industrial disease society (life sucks) via long term hypertension, (pre)-diabetes and so on?

People tend to have medical histories to compare to. And then there is statistics where people simply unlikely to have such damage at their age.