Covid-19 miscellany

[TomC]

I think you are misinterpreting TomC's comment that he doesn't know that much about it yet as some kind of approval.

Note here the comment the data that finds that 4% of kids getting long haul Covid. His comment is that it's "Really really bad". I don't see anything close to thinking it's OK to use kids as guinea pigs

Long-lasting Covid-19 symptoms rare in children https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58071898

This study is positive for children. 1700ish children, only 1 in 25 had symptoms for a long haul.

4% strikes me as really bad.

Me too. Really really bad.
But I'm not sure what "long term symptoms" means either.

I have long term symptoms of my conservative Christian upbringing. Waddya do?
Tom

Very much this.

I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me.

We have decades of experience with other immunizations, like polio and rubella and tetanus and such. That's just not true of this one. I'm fine with CDC recommendations on the subject.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I think you are misinterpreting TomC's comment that he doesn't know that much about it yet as some kind of approval.

Note here the comment the data that finds that 4% of kids getting long haul Covid. His comment is that it's "Really really bad". I don't see anything close to thinking it's OK to use kids as guinea pigs

4% strikes me as really bad.

Me too. Really really bad.
But I'm not sure what "long term symptoms" means either.

I have long term symptoms of my conservative Christian upbringing. Waddya do?
Tom

Very much this.

I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me.

We have decades of experience with other immunizations, like polio and rubella and tetanus and such. That's just not true of this one. I'm fine with CDC recommendations on the subject.
Tom

So you don’t believe in most routine childhood vaccinations?

Personally I was thrilled that my kids did not have to suffer through measles, mumps, rubella as I did or nearly die of pertussis as I nearly did. I’m forever grateful that my generation was vaccinated against smallpox and my kids did not have to be ( except for the one who joined the army) and don’t have to worry about polio.

I honestly do not mean to throw in your face that you don’t seem to understand what vaccinations actually are or how they work. Or maybe the term mRNA is what is throwing you. Let me know and I can direct you to some resources that would help you understand vaccines better.

In a nutshell, vaccines work by causing your body to make antibodies against the disabled pathogen just as your body would do, only you don’t actually get sick, which is a huge advantage.

 

[Playball40]

Meanwhile......

Former Florida talk show host Dick Farrel passed away from COVID last week and he’s getting bashed online because of his views against the vaccine. He was hospitalized with the virus three weeks ago. Farrel was 65.



A close friend of Farrel’s, who provided us this picture of the conservative talker, told Radio Ink Farrel was one of her best friends and he was the reason she took the COVID-19 vaccination shot. Amy Leigh Heir says Farrel texted her and told her to get the shot and that the virus was no joke. He also told her he wished he had gotten the shot himself.

One social media post states that Farrel called Dr. Anthony Fauci a “power-tripping lying freak” and urged people not to get vaccinated as recently as June. Yahoo! Entertainment’s headline on Farrel’s death called him an “Anti-Vax Radio Host.”

https://radioink.com/2021/08/09/con...=P7I9rt2U98IBBMctRAX1AvyzkQZ8MNkJAydSGK1+FOw=

 

[Playball40]

Sidney Powell- Walk Out!

Sidney Powell is promoting for all who are forced to decide to choose a jab or their job to Walk Out on Wednesday, August 11th at 12:00 noon!

Dear Patriots

NO ONE should be forced to get jabbed with an untested vaccine against their will or through threat of job loss or education opportunities.

Millions of people have researched the vaccine and have legitimate concerns about the vaccine’s safety and effectiveness.

Defending the Republic is asking you to take a stand and join us for Walk Out Wednesday, August 11 at Noon.

Peacefully walk out of your place of employment or school if you are being forced to get vaccinated.

Buh bye, fuckheads.

I agree with the sentiment. I also don't think anybody should be forced to get vaccinated. I'm extremly pro-vaccines. I'm just against forcing it on anyone. Liberalism is about fighting for freedom. The moment liberals stop fighting for freedom they've stopped being liberals IMHO

NO ONE is being FORCED to get the vaccine. Mandating vaccines as a condition of employment is not forcing ANYONE to get the vaccine. They can always choose to work elsewhere, remember?

 

[Playball40]

Yeah, that's the problem with freedom. People who are free might not do what you think they should be doing with their freedom. Tough titties.

Your argument is so hollow. This "liberty" or "freedom" is imposing on other people's liberty. I can't blast the speakers in my house in my neighborhood and make a public nuisance. And that isn't leading to anyone's death!

Another person's freedom and liberty stops well short of a second party's coffin.

We've discussed this before. I think you're a fucking fascist. Sorry to be blunt. But there it is. Your idea of liberalism isn't liberalism at all IMHO.

Your stance isn't very 'liberal' either.

 

[Playball40]

I think you are misinterpreting TomC's comment that he doesn't know that much about it yet as some kind of approval.

Note here the comment the data that finds that 4% of kids getting long haul Covid. His comment is that it's "Really really bad". I don't see anything close to thinking it's OK to use kids as guinea pigs

Me too. Really really bad.
But I'm not sure what "long term symptoms" means either.

I have long term symptoms of my conservative Christian upbringing. Waddya do?
Tom

Very much this.

I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me.

We have decades of experience with other immunizations, like polio and rubella and tetanus and such. That's just not true of this one. I'm fine with CDC recommendations on the subject.
Tom

So you don’t believe in most routine childhood vaccinations?

Personally I was thrilled that my kids did not have to suffer through measles, mumps, rubella as I did or nearly die of pertussis as I nearly did. I’m forever grateful that my generation was vaccinated against smallpox and my kids did not have to be ( except for the one who joined the army) and don’t have to worry about polio.

I honestly do not mean to throw in your face that you don’t seem to understand what vaccinations actually are or how they work. Or maybe the term mRNA is what is throwing you. Let me know and I can direct you to some resources that would help you understand vaccines better.

In a nutshell, vaccines work by causing your body to make antibodies against the disabled pathogen just as your body would do, only you don’t actually get sick, which is a huge advantage.

Agree. And my kids also had the Chicken Pox vaccines and Meningitis vaccines (as well as the Gardasil). I'm grateful.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think you are misinterpreting TomC's comment that he doesn't know that much about it yet as some kind of approval.

Note here the comment the data that finds that 4% of kids getting long haul Covid. His comment is that it's "Really really bad". I don't see anything close to thinking it's OK to use kids as guinea pigs

Very much this.

I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me.

We have decades of experience with other immunizations, like polio and rubella and tetanus and such. That's just not true of this one. I'm fine with CDC recommendations on the subject.
Tom

So you don’t believe in most routine childhood vaccinations?

Personally I was thrilled that my kids did not have to suffer through measles, mumps, rubella as I did or nearly die of pertussis as I nearly did. I’m forever grateful that my generation was vaccinated against smallpox and my kids did not have to be ( except for the one who joined the army) and don’t have to worry about polio.

I honestly do not mean to throw in your face that you don’t seem to understand what vaccinations actually are or how they work. Or maybe the term mRNA is what is throwing you. Let me know and I can direct you to some resources that would help you understand vaccines better.

In a nutshell, vaccines work by causing your body to make antibodies against the disabled pathogen just as your body would do, only you don’t actually get sick, which is a huge advantage.

Agree. And my kids also had the Chicken Pox vaccines and Meningitis vaccines (as well as the Gardasil). I'm grateful.

And, didn't we get those decades of data because we were doing it for decades before we had the data?

I get some need to do testing, but the pearl clutching can stop.

 

[TomC]

So you don’t believe in most routine childhood vaccinations?

I find your clutching at straws to build your strawman irritating.
I said no such thing and you know it.
Tom

 

[Keith&Co.]

We've discussed this before. I think you're a fucking fascist. Sorry to be blunt. But there it is. Your idea of liberalism isn't liberalism at all IMHO.

Your stance isn't very 'liberal' either.

But the point of liberalism is NOT that there should be no consequences to freely chosen actions.
If you're free to join NAMBLA, you're not necessarily free to have a job as a teacher in elementary school, where children are or might be threatened by your presence.
If you're free to reject a vaccine, you're not necessarily free to have a job in a school or meat packing facility, where people are or might be threatened by your presence.
If you're free to do intoxicants, you're not necessarily free to drive a city bus, where passengers, motorists, pedestrians, buildings are threatened by your impaired judgement.

The anti-vaxxers i have met are demanding that they can choose not to get a shot AND that they suffer no inconveniences for this self-inflicted vulnerability o being a plague rat. Shopping, dining, work, school, visiting the elderly, international travel, all while breathing with gay abandon. Why would the rest of us tolerate this threat to the herd?

 

[Learner]

Ok, if that's what it seemed to you. I was trying to say the 'vaccinated' who burnt their passports, did not agree with this passport idea, in the thought that this idea would be potentially be 'unfair and discriminative' to those who were not vaccinated, causing division.

So a few people didn't agree. You should have stated your claim better then by stating an allegedly unknown, but likely small, number of vaccinated people allegedly burned cards related to their vaccination in support of people that didn't get vaccinated.

How many was the few in your estimation? The claim as you put it, was quite simply, my agreed perspective to what Doc Zoidberg highlighted. People being forced. You see my mentioning of the Italian division and implication (you didn't get), implies that the unvaccinated will be forced i.e., "no jab no job" etc..

Additionally, causing division? What happened to personal responsibility? It is a Tenet of so many people, except when it comes to spreading a disease that has killed millions. Then it isn't personal responsibility, it becomes a loss of freedom and causing division.

Yes, to the underlined. Well for example: have you ever seen or heard those irresponsible promotional ads ... "snitches get riches?" It's that type of language that causes mistrust with one's own family and neihbours.

 

[Ruth Harris]

TomC, Playball40, Jarhyn and Toni: All of you have good points.

Yes, all of the standard childhood vaccines did not originally have all of the long term data we now know. But they were mandated anyway because of the seriousness of the diseases they control.

Yes, we should think carefully before exposing children to a new vaccine. But given the seriousness of this COVID pandemic, I think that eventually it will come down to the side of mandating it just like all of the other vaccines.

On a personal note, my son was diagnosed with moderate to severe asthma at the age of 3. He was on regular medication and inhalation treatments from that point on until he was an adult, when he was able to drop to just treatment as needed for flareups. Had this pandemic happened when he was little, I would have been pounding at the governments door to get him a vaccine knowing what I know now. Something like COVID could have killed him very easily.

Ruth

 

[repoman]

Oh, NOW some medical professionals want more clarification of PCR cycle threshholds for what is a case...

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-iceland-vaccines/fact-check-covid-19-cases-in-iceland-are-not-proof-that-vaccines-are-ineffective-idUSL1N2P918F

“The fact that many vaccinated people are testing positive after the vaccine with the delta does not mean the vaccine doesn’t work,” Prof Monica Gandhi, Professor of Medicine and Associate Division Chief of the Division of HIV, Infectious Diseases, and Global Medicine at the University of California San Francisco, told Reuters.

“Many asymptomatic people are tested after vaccination and, without incorporating cycle threshold assessment in the PCR test or using antigen-based testing, we don’t know if that test is really a “case” or a low viral load result from the vaccine fighting the virus in your nose ( here ),” Gandhi said.

“Moreover, we are seeing more mild symptomatic breakthrough infections with the delta variant although protection of the vaccines against severe disease seems very high and enduring. Vaccinated people are more likely to seek testing with symptoms than the unvaccinated so the cases may be overrepresented more in the vaccinated,” she added.

But agree that vaccinated people will maybe get more tests. Not sure how to tease that effect out of the data.

Would these vaccines and maybe the inherent life cycle of the virus maybe all possible vaccines be considered "leaky"?

If so, what is the best way to deal with this fact?

I am not all negative though. If the original vaccines (or infection from a year ago) helps people fight the newer versions as descends down into the lungs that is great. Then the body can also treat the new infection as a natural vaccination.

But the question is will most people make new tailored antibodies etc... to delta or only use what was originally made? The former would be great, the latter a cause for concern.

 

[TomC]

The anti-vaxxers i have met are demanding that they can choose not to get a shot AND that they suffer no inconveniences for this self-inflicted vulnerability o being a plague rat.

Exactly this. Every adult, who doesn't have a bonafide medical contra-indication, should get vaccinated. But I don't want to give the government the power to force people.

Not getting vaccinated should remain a legal choice, but the rest of us shouldn't be forced to tolerate your presence. Whether it's my home, a local bodega, or a cruise ship operator. If we don't want you there because of your choice we should be free to prevent you from being there.
Somehow, lots of politicians like Desantis have managed to sacrifice freedom for political points and convinced their followers that forcing and outlawing is "freedom".

Tom

 

[Toni]

So you don’t believe in most routine childhood vaccinations?

I find your clutching at straws to build your strawman irritating.
I said no such thing and you know it.
Tom

No, I'm honestly confused by your statements. Did I make an error (in which case I sincerely apologize) or did you not write this:

I do see young people as different from adults. Artificially tweaking their developing bodies isn't the same as doing so to a fully developed adult. They have so much life ahead of them. Using extra care before giving them such a shot makes very good sense to me.

Are you thinking that the current COVID19 vaccines were just whipped up in labs a year or so ago? Because that's not really true. Nor is it true that we are not using extra care before giving young children a shot. In fact, we've delayed vaccinating children up to the point where more of them are becoming critically ill and dying.

Here are a couple of articles:
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...eases/coronavirus/is-the-covid19-vaccine-safe

How was the COVID-19 vaccine developed so quickly?
In the past, vaccines have taken many years to develop. However, the relatively quick development of this vaccine does not mean safety measures were skipped. There are several reasons why the COVID-19 vaccines were developed faster than other vaccines:

The technologies used to develop the COVID-19 vaccines have been years in development to prepare for outbreaks of infectious viruses. The manufacturing processes were ready very early in the pandemic.
Countries shared genetic information about the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus when it was available, which gave vaccine developers an early start at finding a vaccine.
The testing processes for the vaccines didn’t skip any steps, but the vaccine developers conducted some stages of the process simultaneously to gather as much data as quickly as possible.
Governments gave money to vaccine developers in advance, so the companies had resources they needed.
Some types of COVID-19 vaccines were created using messenger RNA (mRNA), a new technology that allows a faster approach than the traditional way vaccines are made.
Social media enabled companies to reach out to and enroll study volunteers, and plenty of people wanted to help, so there were enough research participants to test the COVID-19 vaccines.
Because the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus is so contagious and widespread, many volunteers who got the vaccine were exposed to the virus, and with so many exposures, the trials took a shorter time to see if the vaccine worked.
Companies began manufacturing vaccines ahead of their authorization or approval so some supplies would be ready if authorization occurred.

https://www.biospace.com/article/a-timeline-of-covid-19-vaccine-development/

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/how-were-researchers-able-develop-covid-19-vaccines-so-quickly

I absolutely share concern about using children (or anyone) as guinea pigs. We honestly do not know yet what risks might arise months or years from now in people who have had COVID19. Some viral infections, such as chickenpox can remain dormant inside the body and re-emerge in a different form many years later. This is why we have a shingles vaccine. People who have been vaccinated against chickenpox cannot get shingles. But people like me, and I strongly suspect, you, can get shingles in our middle and later years because the virus still resides in our body.

Will this happen with COVID19? We don't know. We do know that some adults and now, apparently, some children have serious long term effects from COVID19--effects that affec the heart and respiratory system. My kids are all adults. I was thrilled when they could be vaccinated. And if I had children under 12, I'd be chomping at the bit, waiting until they could also be vaccinated.

 

[ZiprHead]

I agree with the sentiment. I also don't think anybody should be forced to get vaccinated. I'm extremly pro-vaccines. I'm just against forcing it on anyone. Liberalism is about fighting for freedom. The moment liberals stop fighting for freedom they've stopped being liberals IMHO

I got vaccinated, now we (the vaccinated) need to wear masks again because the unvaccinated spread the fucking disease instead of getting vaccinated. But fuck our liberty, right?

You said it much better than I could.

 

[ZiprHead]

We've discussed this before. I think you're a fucking fascist. Sorry to be blunt. But there it is. Your idea of liberalism isn't liberalism at all IMHO.

Your stance isn't very 'liberal' either.

But the point of liberalism is NOT that there should be no consequences to freely chosen actions.
If you're free to join NAMBLA, you're not necessarily free to have a job as a teacher in elementary school, where children are or might be threatened by your presence.
If you're free to reject a vaccine, you're not necessarily free to have a job in a school or meat packing facility, where people are or might be threatened by your presence.
If you're free to do intoxicants, you're not necessarily free to drive a city bus, where passengers, motorists, pedestrians, buildings are threatened by your impaired judgement.

The anti-vaxxers i have met are demanding that they can choose not to get a shot AND that they suffer no inconveniences for this self-inflicted vulnerability o being a plague rat. Shopping, dining, work, school, visiting the elderly, international travel, all while breathing with gay abandon. Why would the rest of us tolerate this threat to the herd?

^^Truth^^

 

[crazyfingers]

US Secretary of Defense will mandate Covid vaccination in a few weeks - presumably when the FDA finally give it full approval.

Good.

As the letter mention, the millitary requires other vaccinations. This should be no different.

Read the letter.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/09/politics/read-milley-military-covid-19-memo/index.html

 

[repoman]

The anti-vaxxers i have met are demanding that they can choose not to get a shot AND that they suffer no inconveniences for this self-inflicted vulnerability o being a plague rat.

Exactly this. Every adult, who doesn't have a bonafide medical contra-indication, should get vaccinated. But I don't want to give the government the power to force people.

Not getting vaccinated should remain a legal choice, but the rest of us shouldn't be forced to tolerate your presence. Whether it's my home, a local bodega, or a cruise ship operator. If we don't want you there because of your choice we should be free to prevent you from being there.
Somehow, lots of politicians like Desantis have managed to sacrifice freedom for political points and convinced their followers that forcing and outlawing is "freedom".

Tom

What should be the result of someone who has a medical contraindication or who has a quick, strong and highly probable reaction to the FIRST dose. Not a hypochondriac level reaction, but something requiring at least a emergency room visit and with clear blood work evidence.

There must be a way forward for these people to be able to go about their lives. They aren't malingerers or selfish.

 

[TomC]

The anti-vaxxers i have met are demanding that they can choose not to get a shot AND that they suffer no inconveniences for this self-inflicted vulnerability o being a plague rat.

Exactly this. Every adult, who doesn't have a bonafide medical contra-indication, should get vaccinated. But I don't want to give the government the power to force people.

Not getting vaccinated should remain a legal choice, but the rest of us shouldn't be forced to tolerate your presence. Whether it's my home, a local bodega, or a cruise ship operator. If we don't want you there because of your choice we should be free to prevent you from being there.
Somehow, lots of politicians like Desantis have managed to sacrifice freedom for political points and convinced their followers that forcing and outlawing is "freedom".

Tom

What should be the result of someone who has a medical contraindication or who has a quick, strong and highly probable reaction to the FIRST dose. Not a hypochondriac level reaction, but something requiring at least a emergency room visit and with clear blood work evidence.

There must be a way forward for these people to be able to go about their lives. They aren't malingerers or selfish.

I do see this as a thorny problem without easy answers. I've got a relative with health issues who really wants a vaccination. But her doctor strongly recommended against it, due to ugly reactions to previous vaccinations. I don't understand the details. It happens.

I don't know what to do.
Except this. If all the people who should get it did we'd lick this fast and she wouldn't be in such danger. Makes me very testy with people who can and should, but just won't.
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

Good. Norwegian Cruise line wins court battle to be able to require passengers and employees to be vaccinated.

Norwegian Cruise Line can require proof of Covid-19 vaccination for passengers and crew members, a federal judge ruled Sunday, after the cruise line operator had challenged Florida’s ban on vaccine passports.

US District Judge Kathleen Williams granted Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings’ request for a preliminary injunction to Florida's law that prohibits companies from requiring customers and employees to provide documentation of Covid-19 vaccination status.

I thought that Republicans used to argue that businesses should be able to hire, fire or refuse service to anyone. Of course unless it goes along with Trumpist delusions.


https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/co...s-08-09-21/h_3c51c0db39af4825ff88eb59e0ded430