• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Covid-19 miscellany

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,756
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
Do you mean a second booster, a third, a fourth?

Do you think we can go on vaxxing the entire population every six months forever?

If it is being administered every six months or more regular, is it really a vaccine?
Yes, of course it is.

A vaccine is a treatment that primes the immune system to respond to a pathogen that it may encounter in the future, so that any such future encounter has a reduced probability of causing severe symptoms.

Nothing in that definition says anything whatsoever about how frequently a vaccine needs to be administered, or how long it might remain effective.

As you evidently don't know what a vaccine even is, you really don't have any chance of offering a useful opinion on the subject, and would be better reading the contributions of the competent, rather than attempting to contribute yourself. But I am sure that your demonstrated inability to say anything helpful won't stop you from doing whatever the fuck it is you are doing instead.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2000
Messages
19,543
Location
Eugene, OR
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
More Republicans have died of COVID-19. Does that mean the polls are off? - Roll Call
Doctors and demographers recently noticed another tragic example of how polarization shapes America: The pandemic has killed more people in the nation’s Republican enclaves than its Democratic strongholds. They explain the gap by pointing to Republican resistance to vaccines and the GOP’s more cavalier approach to combating the virus in general.

Those findings suggest many more Republicans — tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands — have died of COVID-19 than Democrats, leading some to wonder with some morbidity what the political impact will be. Will Democrats, facing the normal midterm election headwinds plus high inflation, do surprisingly well in 2022 for the simple, sad fact that there are fewer Republicans?

Or, to put it another way: Can we expect this partisan mortality shift to show up in the polling data?
Increasing Public Criticism, Confusion Over COVID-19 Response in U.S. | Pew Research Center - 33 percent of Republicans had not received a vaccine, compared to 10 percent of Democrats.

Two Years Into the Pandemic, Americans Inch Closer to a New Normal | Pew Research Center - a widening mask gap, with Republicans less likely than Democrats (39 percent vs. 79 percent) to say they wore masks inside stores most or all of the time.

The Growing Influence of State Governments on Population Health in the United States | Health Disparities | JAMA | JAMA Network
GOP-run states that lifted lockdowns sooner had higher excess death rates than blue states, an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed. Florida and Georgia had more than 200 deaths per 100,000, while New York had 112 per 100,000, New Jersey 73 per 100,000 and Massachusetts 50 per 100,000. “Between August and December 2021, Florida experienced more than triple the number of excess deaths (29, 252) as New York (8,786), despite both states having similar population counts (21.7 million and 19.3 million, respectively),” Steven H. Woolf wrote.

The Pew Research Center similarly found that more Americans died in counties that supported Trump than those that backed Biden. Comparing the 20 percent of Americans each living in counties that Trump or Biden took by the highest margins in 2020, Pew found the reddest places suffered nearly 70,000 more deaths from COVID-19 since the pandemic began. And overall, the COVID-19 death rate in all counties Trump won was 326 per 100,000, higher than 258 per 100,000 for Biden.
Seems like right-wingers are shooting themselves in the foot with their culture warring, even if it means killing enough of their number to throw tight elections away from their side.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,756
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
More Republicans have died of COVID-19. Does that mean the polls are off? - Roll Call
Doctors and demographers recently noticed another tragic example of how polarization shapes America: The pandemic has killed more people in the nation’s Republican enclaves than its Democratic strongholds. They explain the gap by pointing to Republican resistance to vaccines and the GOP’s more cavalier approach to combating the virus in general.

Those findings suggest many more Republicans — tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands — have died of COVID-19 than Democrats, leading some to wonder with some morbidity what the political impact will be. Will Democrats, facing the normal midterm election headwinds plus high inflation, do surprisingly well in 2022 for the simple, sad fact that there are fewer Republicans?

Or, to put it another way: Can we expect this partisan mortality shift to show up in the polling data?
Increasing Public Criticism, Confusion Over COVID-19 Response in U.S. | Pew Research Center - 33 percent of Republicans had not received a vaccine, compared to 10 percent of Democrats.

Two Years Into the Pandemic, Americans Inch Closer to a New Normal | Pew Research Center - a widening mask gap, with Republicans less likely than Democrats (39 percent vs. 79 percent) to say they wore masks inside stores most or all of the time.

The Growing Influence of State Governments on Population Health in the United States | Health Disparities | JAMA | JAMA Network
GOP-run states that lifted lockdowns sooner had higher excess death rates than blue states, an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed. Florida and Georgia had more than 200 deaths per 100,000, while New York had 112 per 100,000, New Jersey 73 per 100,000 and Massachusetts 50 per 100,000. “Between August and December 2021, Florida experienced more than triple the number of excess deaths (29, 252) as New York (8,786), despite both states having similar population counts (21.7 million and 19.3 million, respectively),” Steven H. Woolf wrote.

The Pew Research Center similarly found that more Americans died in counties that supported Trump than those that backed Biden. Comparing the 20 percent of Americans each living in counties that Trump or Biden took by the highest margins in 2020, Pew found the reddest places suffered nearly 70,000 more deaths from COVID-19 since the pandemic began. And overall, the COVID-19 death rate in all counties Trump won was 326 per 100,000, higher than 258 per 100,000 for Biden.
Seems like right-wingers are shooting themselves in the foot with their culture warring, even if it means killing enough of their number to throw tight elections away from their side.
Are many elections won by 0.068% or less of the vote?

I would imagine that this is at least an order of magnitude too small an effect to be detectable, and likely is less than the typical error due to incorrect counting of votes.

The biggest effects will occur in the most polarised counties, which are also by definition the places with the fewest close races, so the electoral impact would presumably be tiny.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
10,033
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
I just got a second booster during my yearly checkup.

Many people are still wearing masks even though the public mask mandate has gone.
 

Artemus

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2002
Messages
1,161
Location
Bible Belt, USA
Basic Beliefs
Atheist and general cynic
Are many elections won by 0.068% or less of the vote?

I would imagine that this is at least an order of magnitude too small an effect to be detectable, and likely is less than the typical error due to incorrect counting of votes.

The biggest effects will occur in the most polarised counties, which are also by definition the places with the fewest close races, so the electoral impact would presumably be tiny.

The margin for the  2000 United States presidential election in Florida that swung the overall election to Shrub was 0.009%. With our crazy system over here the effect will be small but I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few legislature seats swing over.

ETA: The same Wiki article says that New Mexico was won by 0.061% in the same election.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
37,031
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Are many elections won by 0.068% or less of the vote?

I would imagine that this is at least an order of magnitude too small an effect to be detectable, and likely is less than the typical error due to incorrect counting of votes.

The biggest effects will occur in the most polarised counties, which are also by definition the places with the fewest close races, so the electoral impact would presumably be tiny.

The margin for the  2000 United States presidential election in Florida that swung the overall election to Shrub was 0.009%. With our crazy system over here the effect will be small but I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few legislature seats swing over.
Florida was very rare. Even Georgia in 2020, which was extremely close, was won by tenths of a percent.
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
4,611
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
The margin for the
wikipedia.png
2000 United States presidential election in Florida that swung the overall election to Shrub was 0.009%. With our crazy system over here the effect will be small but I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few legislature seats swing over.
The election in Florida, in 2000, was determined by state sponsored election fraud.
One presidential candidate's brother was governor of Florida. Unsurprisingly, Jeb (the brother) did whatever he had to do to get W elected. Including break the law.

Once it became clear that Gore won the popular election, Jeb pulled out the stops finding a way to throw Florida EC votes to his brother.

In other countries, we use the word "oligarchy" to describe this unlawful behavior. Here in the USA, we call it Republicans.
Tom
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
36,712
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Do you mean a second booster, a third, a fourth?

Do you think we can go on vaxxing the entire population every six months forever?

If it is being administered every six months or more regular, is it really a vaccine?
Yes, of course it is.

A vaccine is a treatment that primes the immune system to respond to a pathogen that it may encounter in the future, so that any such future encounter has a reduced probability of causing severe symptoms.

Nothing in that definition says anything whatsoever about how frequently a vaccine needs to be administered, or how long it might remain effective.

Things seem to have changed a lot since it was last relevant but cholera used to be only good for 6 months.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,756
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
Do you mean a second booster, a third, a fourth?

Do you think we can go on vaxxing the entire population every six months forever?

If it is being administered every six months or more regular, is it really a vaccine?
Yes, of course it is.

A vaccine is a treatment that primes the immune system to respond to a pathogen that it may encounter in the future, so that any such future encounter has a reduced probability of causing severe symptoms.

Nothing in that definition says anything whatsoever about how frequently a vaccine needs to be administered, or how long it might remain effective.

Things seem to have changed a lot since it was last relevant but cholera used to be only good for 6 months.
It's still relevant. According to the WHO, every year, there are 1.3 to 4.0 million cases of cholera.
 

Artemus

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2002
Messages
1,161
Location
Bible Belt, USA
Basic Beliefs
Atheist and general cynic
The margin for the
wikipedia.png
2000 United States presidential election in Florida that swung the overall election to Shrub was 0.009%. With our crazy system over here the effect will be small but I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few legislature seats swing over.
The election in Florida, in 2000, was determined by state sponsored election fraud.
One presidential candidate's brother was governor of Florida. Unsurprisingly, Jeb (the brother) did whatever he had to do to get W elected. Including break the law.

Once it became clear that Gore won the popular election, Jeb pulled out the stops finding a way to throw Florida EC votes to his brother.

In other countries, we use the word "oligarchy" to describe this unlawful behavior. Here in the USA, we call it Republicans.
Tom

No need to rehash that. The point is that two states in one election were within 0.068%. It's not as uncommon as one might think and the disparity in Covid deaths may affect some elections, especially if another wave increases the difference even more.
 

Hermit

Cantankerous grump
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,473
Location
Ignore list
The margin for the
wikipedia.png
2000 United States presidential election in Florida that swung the overall election to Shrub was 0.009%. With our crazy system over here the effect will be small but I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few legislature seats swing over.
The election in Florida, in 2000, was determined by state sponsored election fraud.
One presidential candidate's brother was governor of Florida. Unsurprisingly, Jeb (the brother) did whatever he had to do to get W elected. Including break the law.

Once it became clear that Gore won the popular election, Jeb pulled out the stops finding a way to throw Florida EC votes to his brother.

In other countries, we use the word "oligarchy" to describe this unlawful behavior. Here in the USA, we call it Republicans.
Tom
No need to rehash that. The point is that two states in one election were within 0.068%. It's not as uncommon as one might think and the disparity in Covid deaths may affect some elections, especially if another wave increases the difference even more.
Yes, but would the differential in Covid deaths be anywhere near that fraction in those evenly poised states to result in a Dem win?
 

Metaphor

Adult human male
Warning Level 3
Warning Level 2
Warning Level 1
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
11,299
Gender
None. on/ga/njegov
Do you mean a second booster, a third, a fourth?

Do you think we can go on vaxxing the entire population every six months forever?

If it is being administered every six months or more regular, is it really a vaccine?
Yes, of course it is.

A vaccine is a treatment that primes the immune system to respond to a pathogen that it may encounter in the future, so that any such future encounter has a reduced probability of causing severe symptoms.

Nothing in that definition says anything whatsoever about how frequently a vaccine needs to be administered, or how long it might remain effective.

Things seem to have changed a lot since it was last relevant but cholera used to be only good for 6 months.
The population doesn't vaccinate for cholera every six months either.

If Pfizer or Moderna formulated a vaccine that lasted five years, I could almost envision a mass vaccination continuing indefinitely.

But the entire population every six months?

No, it isn't going to happen and it isn't happening in any country I know.
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,304
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
So it seems that Multiple Sclerosis is caused by the autoimmune side effects of an Epstein Barr virus infection. EBV is very widespread and very few people develop MS from it.

So, is there a risk of developing MS from a future EBV vaccine and could an effective vaccine be designed be that has zero chance of causing it?
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,304
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
extra effectiveness of the fourth dose disappears after ~4 weeks according to the new Israeli study. So a booster every 6 months is 6 times too few, lolololol.

Maybe it is time to just give it up.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
37,031
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
We likely need an updated vaccine. This bug has mutated several large steps up since the vaccine was developed. What'd be great is if the updated vaccine prevents infection again as the original appeared to do Covid-19 Classic and Alpha.
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
4,611
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
We likely need an updated vaccine. This bug has mutated several large steps up since the vaccine was developed. What'd be great is if the updated vaccine prevents infection again as the original appeared to do Covid-19 Classic and Alpha.

Here's what makes me so angry about this.
The many variants are primarily the result of unvaccinated people continuing to spread the C19 virus, giving it millions of opportunities to mutate.
If the vaccination program hadn't been turned into a political football we wouldn't have this kind of problem. If people had continued using low tech methods, like masking and distancing, while getting vaccinated as quickly as feasible, we could have licked the C19 disaster months ago!


But a bunch of asshats in politics and media found it personally advantageous to use it as a weapon. Use fake news as a way to benefit themselves. So they did.

And now we're all stuck with the fallout.
Tom
 
Last edited:

Artemus

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2002
Messages
1,161
Location
Bible Belt, USA
Basic Beliefs
Atheist and general cynic
extra effectiveness of the fourth dose disappears after ~4 weeks according to the new Israeli study. So a booster every 6 months is 6 times too few, lolololol.

Maybe it is time to just give it up.

Uhhh, no. From the study abstract
Bar-On et al. said:
Rates of confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and severe Covid-19 were lower after a fourth dose of BNT162b2 vaccine than after only three doses. Protection against confirmed infection appeared short-lived, whereas protection against severe illness did not wane during the study period.

It extends protection against severe illness, exactly as desired. This study confirms that, for those of us over 60 years of age, getting the fourth dose is a Good Idea(tm).
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
36,712
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Things seem to have changed a lot since it was last relevant but cholera used to be only good for 6 months.
It's still relevant. According to the WHO, every year, there are 1.3 to 4.0 million cases of cholera.
Bad wording on my part--last relevant to me. The last time I was in cholera territory was 1982. I went looking for the info on the vaccine and it's very different than back then.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
36,712
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
We likely need an updated vaccine. This bug has mutated several large steps up since the vaccine was developed. What'd be great is if the updated vaccine prevents infection again as the original appeared to do Covid-19 Classic and Alpha.

Here's what makes me so angry about this.
The many variants are primarily the result of unvaccinated people continuing to spread the C19 virus, giving it millions of opportunities to mutate.
If the vaccination program hadn't been turned into a political football we wouldn't have this kind of problem. If people had continued using low tech methods, like masking and distancing, while getting vaccinated as quickly as feasible, we could have licked the C19 disaster months ago!

Disagree--Omicron is suspected of having been living in a mouse.

Since it can infect a fair number of mammals it's almost certain we won't get rid of it and will continue to face variants.
 

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
10,033
Location
seattle
Basic Beliefs
secular-skeptic
I wear a mask when I walk through a an area with a lot of people, on public transit, and in stores.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
31,389
Location
Frozen in Michigan
Gender
Old Fart
Basic Beliefs
Democratic Socialist Atheist
Tokyo police on April 7 arrested four members of an anti-vaccine, conspiracy group on suspicion of unlawful entry at a health care clinic that has been providing shots against COVID-19.

The Metropolitan Police Department said the four suspects belong to YamatoQ, a group that reportedly calls itself the Japanese wing of U.S. conspiracy cult QAnon.

The four broke into the clinic in Tokyo’s Shibuya Ward on the morning of April 7, according to investigative sources.

YamatoQ has been waging an opposition campaign against the COVID-19 vaccine rollout, and Tokyo police said they have gathered information on the group.
Idiots.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
36,712
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist


It hasn't even been two weeks, that's not endless in my book.

There are major problems with the logistics and it's apparent that containment has failed--there's no way they can stop it at this point but the cost will be hundreds of thousands dead, perhaps even millions.
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,304
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Is China getting the hospitals and clinics loaded with fluvoxamine (Together Trial), the correct types of corticosteroids and heparin right now?

Also, are they reminding people to not take anti-fever medicine so as to not supress the healthy immune response?
 

TSwizzle

Let's Go Brandon!
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
6,694
Location
West Hollywood
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Not surprising at all;

States that imposed the harshest lockdowns had the most devastating impact on the public, the most wide-ranging study into Covid restrictions in the US to date has found. New York, California, New Jersey and Illinois were panned for their pandemic performance after bringing in draconian measures to shut their citizens in their homes. Those states' Democrat Governors' policies caused high death rates, ruined children's education and destroyed businesses due to the severe curbs on freedom, researchers found as they slapped them with an F-grade. Nine out of the ten worst responses to the pandemic were in blue states, the report said, with only Republican-run Maryland bucking that trend and coming seventh last. Meanwhile places that allowed their residents more freedom as coronavirus swept across the country appeared to fair better over the last two years.

Daily Mail
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
36,712
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Not surprising at all;

States that imposed the harshest lockdowns had the most devastating impact on the public, the most wide-ranging study into Covid restrictions in the US to date has found. New York, California, New Jersey and Illinois were panned for their pandemic performance after bringing in draconian measures to shut their citizens in their homes. Those states' Democrat Governors' policies caused high death rates, ruined children's education and destroyed businesses due to the severe curbs on freedom, researchers found as they slapped them with an F-grade. Nine out of the ten worst responses to the pandemic were in blue states, the report said, with only Republican-run Maryland bucking that trend and coming seventh last. Meanwhile places that allowed their residents more freedom as coronavirus swept across the country appeared to fair better over the last two years.

Daily Mail
That's the Daily Fail.

Note that the score is the simple average of deaths, in person-schooling and economy.

So it's equally important whether kids went to school or whether they lived? Staying home is equal to death?

And note that even the Fail shows the study is garbage:

Across the two factors, the authors - Phil Kerpen, Stephen Moore and Casey Mulligan - said: 'Hawaii and Nevada came in last by far because of the overwhelming impact the global shutdown of tourism had on them, and energy-heavy states similarly had disproportionate unemployment rises with the collapse of global demand.'

In other words, some of it is external and they didn't even try to control for that.

The actual paper: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29928/w29928.pdf

Note that it is not peer-reviewed.
 

TSwizzle

Let's Go Brandon!
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
6,694
Location
West Hollywood
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Boris Johnson in hot water about the covid rule breaking parties at Downing Street, Starmer calls for the prime minister to resign;

Boris Johnson has been fined for breaking his own Covid laws by attending a party for his birthday in No 10, but he has vowed to fight on as prime minister in defiance of furious calls for him to quit. Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, and Johnson’s wife, Carrie, were also given fixed-penalty notices for attending the gathering on 19 June 2020 in the cabinet room, with the Metropolitan police saying more than 50 have been issued. It was reported on Tuesday that all three had paid their fines. Johnson and Sunak are thought to be the first sitting prime minister and chancellor to be criminally sanctioned. Both senior politicians were also accused of misleading parliament by previously denying they had attended parties during lockdown.

Teh Gruaniad

Boris really is a buffoon.
 

TSwizzle

Let's Go Brandon!
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
6,694
Location
West Hollywood
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
If you disagree with the state party line regarding covid/health policy, they want to take your livelihood from you. In the state of California anyway;

This forced scientific groupthink—and the fear and self-censorship they produce—are bad enough. So far, though, the risk has been social and reputational. Now it could become literally career-ending. According to California Assembly Bill 2098, physicians who deviate from an authorized set of beliefs would do so at risk to their medical license. The bill, written by Assemblyman Evan Low, a Democrat in Silicon Valley, and currently making its way through the California Legislature, is motivated by the idea that practicing doctors are spreading “misinformation” about the risks of Covid, its treatment, and the Covid vaccine. It declares that physicians and surgeons who “disseminate or promote misinformation or disinformation related to COVID-19, including false or misleading information regarding the nature and risks of the virus, its prevention and treatment; and the development, safety, and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines” shall be subject to “disciplinary action,” which could result in the loss of the doctor’s medical license. The language of the bill itself is intentionally vague about what constitutes “misinformation,” which makes it even more damaging. Doctors, fearing loss of their livelihoods, will need to hew closely to the government line on Covid science and policy, even if that line does not track the scientific evidence.

bariweiss.substack

But what else will the state decree is "misinformation"? You can see where this is headed.

Assemblyman Evan Low is the dimwit that put through a bill that forced California retailers to have aisles that were "gender neutral".
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,304
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Under this proposed law can a doctor have his medical license stripped for prescribing fluvoxamine that was found to be effective, but that the NIH is dragging its heels to give its blessing to?

Benefits of fluvoxamine confirmed in new study (McGill University Health Centre)

You guys have an insult name to give to fluvoxamine? Crazy pills? That might work.

All laws should be partially weighed against the worst excesses they will bring.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
37,031
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
If you disagree with the state party line regarding covid/health policy, they want to take your livelihood from you. In the state of California anyway;

This forced scientific groupthink—and the fear and self-censorship they produce—are bad enough. So far, though, the risk has been social and reputational. Now it could become literally career-ending. According to California Assembly Bill 2098, physicians who deviate from an authorized set of beliefs would do so at risk to their medical license. The bill, written by Assemblyman Evan Low, a Democrat in Silicon Valley, and currently making its way through the California Legislature, is motivated by the idea that practicing doctors are spreading “misinformation” about the risks of Covid, its treatment, and the Covid vaccine. It declares that physicians and surgeons who “disseminate or promote misinformation or disinformation related to COVID-19, including false or misleading information regarding the nature and risks of the virus, its prevention and treatment; and the development, safety, and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines” shall be subject to “disciplinary action,” which could result in the loss of the doctor’s medical license. The language of the bill itself is intentionally vague about what constitutes “misinformation,” which makes it even more damaging. Doctors, fearing loss of their livelihoods, will need to hew closely to the government line on Covid science and policy, even if that line does not track the scientific evidence.

bariweiss.substack

But what else will the state decree is "misinformation"? You can see where this is headed.

Assemblyman Evan Low is the dimwit that put through a bill that forced California retailers to have aisles that were "gender neutral".
So you are against holding doctors responsible for malpractice. Or is this some more chicken little shit?
 

TSwizzle

Let's Go Brandon!
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
6,694
Location
West Hollywood
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
If you disagree with the state party line regarding covid/health policy, they want to take your livelihood from you. In the state of California anyway;

This forced scientific groupthink—and the fear and self-censorship they produce—are bad enough. So far, though, the risk has been social and reputational. Now it could become literally career-ending. According to California Assembly Bill 2098, physicians who deviate from an authorized set of beliefs would do so at risk to their medical license. The bill, written by Assemblyman Evan Low, a Democrat in Silicon Valley, and currently making its way through the California Legislature, is motivated by the idea that practicing doctors are spreading “misinformation” about the risks of Covid, its treatment, and the Covid vaccine. It declares that physicians and surgeons who “disseminate or promote misinformation or disinformation related to COVID-19, including false or misleading information regarding the nature and risks of the virus, its prevention and treatment; and the development, safety, and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines” shall be subject to “disciplinary action,” which could result in the loss of the doctor’s medical license. The language of the bill itself is intentionally vague about what constitutes “misinformation,” which makes it even more damaging. Doctors, fearing loss of their livelihoods, will need to hew closely to the government line on Covid science and policy, even if that line does not track the scientific evidence.

bariweiss.substack

But what else will the state decree is "misinformation"? You can see where this is headed.

Assemblyman Evan Low is the dimwit that put through a bill that forced California retailers to have aisles that were "gender neutral".
So you are against holding doctors responsible for malpractice. Or is this some more chicken little shit?

This bill is not about malpractice. Read the article and the bill before you comment.
 

Ruth Harris

Token Christian
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
451
Location
Missouri
Basic Beliefs
Christian
This bill is not about malpractice. Read the article and the bill before you comment.

I read the bill and the article. I don't see any reason to think that this is headed anywhere detrimental to physicians. The state's medical board already has the power to file "unprofessional conduct" charges against physicians who push misinformation about anything, not just COVID. If anything, this bill does give physicians the option to support their decisions regarding COVID patient care as it specifies that they can justify their recommendations based on the patient's medical history and condition.

And The Great Barrington Declaration was a sad treatise on the state of some physicians' mindset about science. The ideas of developing herd immunity via exposure and protection of only the "vulnerable" in this pandemic have both proven to be not only ineffective but dangerous in real world circumstances.

Ruth
 

TSwizzle

Let's Go Brandon!
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
6,694
Location
West Hollywood
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
This bill is not about malpractice. Read the article and the bill before you comment.

I read the bill and the article. I don't see any reason to think that this is headed anywhere detrimental to physicians. The state's medical board already has the power to file "unprofessional conduct" charges against physicians who push misinformation about anything, not just COVID.
Really, so that's not enough? And it won't stop there. It's about censorship and crushing anyone that disagrees with state diktats.


And The Great Barrington Declaration was a sad treatise on the state of some physicians' mindset about science. The ideas of developing herd immunity via exposure and protection of only the "vulnerable" in this pandemic have both proven to be not only ineffective but dangerous in real world circumstances.

The pandemic response has proven to have been entirely ineffective. California, a state that had some of the most draconian covid responses faired worse than Florida in every measurable way. Should a doctor lose their license for discussing the subject? I guess in your world, yes.
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,304
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Ruth, if a pro vaccine, pro monoclonal antibody, pro paxlovid doctor ALSO prescribed fluvoxamine for some of his covid patients with current RCT results about that drug, but no imprimatur from the NIH/FDA for what should be in his domain for sensible off label use....

Should that doctor have a sanction for that?

Not talking about crazies and dementia addled docs, but sensible ones.

Or do you not think it is sensible to prescribe fluvoxamine to any patient with covid?
 

Ruth Harris

Token Christian
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
451
Location
Missouri
Basic Beliefs
Christian
This bill is not about malpractice. Read the article and the bill before you comment.

I read the bill and the article. I don't see any reason to think that this is headed anywhere detrimental to physicians. The state's medical board already has the power to file "unprofessional conduct" charges against physicians who push misinformation about anything, not just COVID.
Really, so that's not enough? And it won't stop there. It's about censorship and crushing anyone that disagrees with state diktats.

You conveniently overlooked this sentence:
If anything, this bill does give physicians the option to support their decisions regarding COVID patient care as it specifies that they can justify their recommendations based on the patient's medical history and condition.

As far as your second part goes:
And The Great Barrington Declaration was a sad treatise on the state of some physicians' mindset about science. The ideas of developing herd immunity via exposure and protection of only the "vulnerable" in this pandemic have both proven to be not only ineffective but dangerous in real world circumstances.

The pandemic response has proven to have been entirely ineffective. California, a state that had some of the most draconian covid responses faired worse than Florida in every measurable way. Should a doctor lose their license for discussing the subject? I guess in your world, yes.

Wrong. From the CDC COVID Data Tracker, cases and deaths by state per 100,000 population since the start of the pandemic on January 21 2020:

California: 22.9k – 24.4k cases, 208.0 – 247.0 deaths per 100,000 population
Florida: 26.2k – 28.3k cases, 326.0 – 369.0 deaths per 100,000 population

So Florida not only had a higher case count per 100,000 - their death rate was much higher per 100,000 cases. That seems like a pretty decent prima facie case proving that the public health measures were effective.

Ruth
 

Ruth Harris

Token Christian
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
451
Location
Missouri
Basic Beliefs
Christian
Ruth, if a pro vaccine, pro monoclonal antibody, pro paxlovid doctor ALSO prescribed fluvoxamine for some of his covid patients with current RCT results about that drug, but no imprimatur from the NIH/FDA for what should be in his domain for sensible off label use....

Should that doctor have a sanction for that?

Not talking about crazies and dementia addled docs, but sensible ones.

Or do you not think it is sensible to prescribe fluvoxamine to any patient with covid?

I don't know. I am not a physician. Are you? These decisions should be made and reviewed by actual physicians as is specified in the California bill under discussion.

Ruth
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,304
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
If the doctor tells the patient a true fact of how well that fluvoxamine did in the randomize controlled trials and also the truth that it does not have full "blessing" of the NIH then the misinformation part of the bill is not violated. The more nebulous "standard of care" clause, who knows what will be done with that.

This is what the NIH says about fluvoxamine and covid, not updated since December 16, 2021



Recommendation​

  • There is insufficient evidence for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of fluvoxamine for the treatment of COVID-19.

More complete information in the link

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/immunomodulators/fluvoxamine/

So, with no recommendation AGAINST, a possible determination of violation of "standard of care" by the medical board seems a bit of a reach. But with no recommendation FOR, does this still put the doctor in jeopardy of losing the license? Is this fair?
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,899
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
So there’s a high probability that some unspecified reduction of risk of hospitalization for severe COVID is associated with fluvoxine.
It is also associated with violent behavior and suicidal thinking in children and teenagers. Fair trade?
Luvox was taken off the market in part due to “false or misleading” statements of product safety. But the listed side effects other than what I mentioned above, don’t sound too terrible. Of course anything that assuages the GQP-cultivated paranoia about the vaccines that have proven safe over BILLIONS of doses, will be embraced wholeheartedly by the FOXwashed right.
Prob’ly not as bad as drinking piss or Chlorox, or taking doses of ivermectin intended for a 1200 pound horse.
I’d prefer that people get vaxed, like they did for smallpox, rubella, polio etc etc etc before the right wing propaganda machine got to them. But that horse has left the barn.
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,304
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Elixir you are giving a "Sir, this is a Wendy's" response to a legitimate question.

It is only given for a couple weeks and its effect for covid induced disease (it is not antiviral) is not related to its psychiatric effects.

Should GQP people be a reason to not give a medication that is doing very well in very large RCTs?
 

Elixir

Made in America
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
20,899
Location
Mountains
Basic Beliefs
English is complicated
Should GQP people be a reason to not give a medication that is doing very well in very large RCTs?
First, “very well” is poorly (not at all) defined.
At a buck a dose it would be cheap, so if there’s a 90-something percent chance that it will help “at all” (let alone very well, as you assert without support) keeping a given COVID patient out of the hospital, then it’s worth it - at first blush.
But if its cheap availability is going to dissuade anyone from getting vaccinated, then imho it is counterproductive.
In short I don’t have enough info to give an unqualified yes or no to your question, and I don’t believe you do either.
I defer to the experts.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
31,389
Location
Frozen in Michigan
Gender
Old Fart
Basic Beliefs
Democratic Socialist Atheist
Under this proposed law can a doctor have his medical license stripped for prescribing fluvoxamine that was found to be effective, but that the NIH is dragging its heels to give its blessing to?

Benefits of fluvoxamine confirmed in new study (McGill University Health Centre)

You guys have an insult name to give to fluvoxamine? Crazy pills? That might work.

All laws should be partially weighed against the worst excesses they will bring.
Why do you think the NIH is dragging its feet? The article you linked to was posted less than a week ago.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
36,712
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
The pandemic response has proven to have been entirely ineffective. California, a state that had some of the most draconian covid responses faired worse than Florida in every measurable way. Should a doctor lose their license for discussing the subject? I guess in your world, yes.
We've already shown the research behind that Daily Fail article is horribly flawed.
 

Hermit

Cantankerous grump
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
1,473
Location
Ignore list
The pandemic response has proven to have been entirely ineffective. California, a state that had some of the most draconian covid responses faired worse than Florida in every measurable way.
How's life in the fact-free zone treating you, TSwizzle?

Let's have a look at a couple of measures: Total cases/1million of the population and total cases/1million of the population:

Cases/1M​
Deaths/1M​
California​
23,1196​
2,267​
Florida​
27,5473​
3,428​

You were saying?
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
2,898
Location
Land of Smiles
Basic Beliefs
pseudo-deism
Or, to put it another way: Can we expect this partisan mortality shift to show up in the polling data?
Some back-of-the-envelope figures.

The 2016 Presidential election was very close: Hillary led 65.9 million to 63.0 million, not enough to overcome the EC disadvantage. Removing 900,000 Trump votes, spread evenly across the Trumpist population, would have tilted the election to the D's. 800,000 votes would NOT have been enough. Eliminating 1.4% of the R vote just isn't that huge. Ted Cruz, for example, beat Beto O'Rourke in a "close" election in 2018, but still would have won (barely) if 5% of his R vote disappeared.

Assume 2 million total Covid deaths, and that half the dead are either non-voters or would have died anyway. What partisan split could we hope for among the 1 million dead voters? Almost all the Covid dead are aged 60 years or more, and most are male. (Old white men are the main Trumpist demographic; without them the D's would win every election in a landslide.) The split might be 650k vs 350k even without the unsafe masking and vaccine behavior of Trumpists, but that's only a net disappearance of 300,000 votes. Foolish behavior by younger Trumpists is unlikely to lead to death. (Covid deaths vary by race, but the VERY low death rate of Asians — who mostly vote rationally — counters the slightly higher-than-white black death rate.)

We really need a million or more QOPAnoner's to go suicidal in order to have an important impact at the polls. Perhaps we'd best hope for an on-going stream of new virulent strains. :)
 

Metaphor

Adult human male
Warning Level 3
Warning Level 2
Warning Level 1
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
11,299
Gender
None. on/ga/njegov
We really need a million or more QOPAnoner's to go suicidal in order to have an important impact at the polls. Perhaps we'd best hope for an on-going stream of new virulent strains. :)
Putting a smiley face on your fantasy of a virus strain killing a million of your political opponents doesn't make it as light-hearted as you think.
 
Top Bottom