• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Covid-19 miscellany

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,548
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Are you seriously still on this bullshit. It appears Delta is as transmissible as the Measles and the vaccinated can contract it as well. Your argument was bullshit to start with, and we are seeing exactly why people should have immediately been vaccinated to prevent this from occurring. At this point, it appears everyone in the US will now get Covid-19.

Again, so what? Delta isn't going to kill anybody vaccinated. It's spread is so great by now there's no lockdowns that can stop it. If we can't stop it, then why bother slowing it down? Why not let it rip? At this point, what's the benefit to anybody if we manage to slow it down? What's your end goal here?

You seem to be engaging in a false dichotomy. Sweden, I guess, is a small place relatively. Same with Denmark. The US has 50 states. Between the extremes of "letting it rip" and lockdowns are actually letting it rip in places like Vermont and other states where vaccination rates are high. And that is what the CDC recommendation is, sort of, when they are not advocating for mask wearing of vaccinated in those regions. Now, other states, such as Arkansas have made laws to stop localities from implementing mask-wearing at all. The CDC is recommending in low vaccinated areas like Arkansas that vaccinated people ought to wear masks inside. They haven't said anything about a full-blown lockdown. It's to stop the spread and rise of deaths, new variants, and full hospitals. Who does this save potentially?
  • Random people who just get it by coincidence but no longer have a spot in a hospital (or ICU);
  • Yes, people who are not vaccinated because they are dumbasses;
  • Children who are less than 13 who cannot be vaccinated yet;
  • People with immune problems who were vaccinated but get the virus anyway;
  • EVERYONE on the planet who could suffer from a newly created variant that is even more resistant to the vaccine than Delta is because you want to eliminate giant petri dishes of virus mutation.

But you are mixing apples and oranges. Letting Covid rip among unvaccinated is a problem. Letting it rip among vaccinated isn't.

At this point I know loads of vaccinated who have had the delta variant. They barely get any symptoms. If any. No long term symptoms.
 

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
6,414
Location
Washington
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Because ALL PEOPLE can spread it to everyone else. Unvaccinated have a higher probability of getting and passing it, but in areas of low vaccination rates, many people spreading it will be vaccinated. In areas of high vaccination rates, it will be spread less and the severity will be less when it is spread. Besides all this, the uncomfortable truth is that people who are vaccinated are going to be more likely to listen to CDC recommendations to mask up while people who are not vaccinated will be more likely to disregard rules, recommendations, and take advantage of not masking up when public places say it is optional. The fakers cannot take advantage of rules if everyone has to mask up indoors.

So what? So what if they spread it to everyone else? Everyone else is either vaccinated or an anti-vaxxer. People who are immunocompromised have to take precautions with or without a Covid pandemic.

People from the west who travel to the developing world need to get tested before they go.

Masks solve a non-problem. I still think it's a good idea to wear a mask on public transportation. But we do not need any regulation for it anymore IMHO.

I really don't care about unvaccinated adults. They get what they sow. But you do understand that children under 12 can't get vaccinated in the US yet?
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,548
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Because ALL PEOPLE can spread it to everyone else. Unvaccinated have a higher probability of getting and passing it, but in areas of low vaccination rates, many people spreading it will be vaccinated. In areas of high vaccination rates, it will be spread less and the severity will be less when it is spread. Besides all this, the uncomfortable truth is that people who are vaccinated are going to be more likely to listen to CDC recommendations to mask up while people who are not vaccinated will be more likely to disregard rules, recommendations, and take advantage of not masking up when public places say it is optional. The fakers cannot take advantage of rules if everyone has to mask up indoors.

So what? So what if they spread it to everyone else? Everyone else is either vaccinated or an anti-vaxxer. People who are immunocompromised have to take precautions with or without a Covid pandemic.

People from the west who travel to the developing world need to get tested before they go.

Masks solve a non-problem. I still think it's a good idea to wear a mask on public transportation. But we do not need any regulation for it anymore IMHO.

I really don't care about unvaccinated adults. They get what they sow. But you do understand that children under 12 can't get vaccinated in the US yet?

Yes, but they're also the least at risk group. At some point we need to weigh pros and cons and decide what cost is worth paying for limited returns.

Every child that dies is a tragedy. Locking down and killing the economy also kills children. How many more children do you think dies from that?

I think it's important to acknowledge that the western lockdown crowd are about as crazy as the anti-vaxxers. It's people so caught up with supporting their side, vilifying the other side, that they fail to understand this isn't a black-and-white question. It never was.
 

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
6,414
Location
Washington
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I really don't care about unvaccinated adults. They get what they sow. But you do understand that children under 12 can't get vaccinated in the US yet?

Yes, but they're also the least at risk group. At some point we need to weigh pros and cons and decide what cost is worth paying for limited returns.

Every child that dies is a tragedy. Locking down and killing the economy also kills children. How many more children do you think dies from that?

I think it's important to acknowledge that the western lockdown crowd are about as crazy as the anti-vaxxers. It's people so caught up with supporting their side, vilifying the other side, that they fail to understand this isn't a black-and-white question. It never was.

I'm with you in not wanting to lock up the economy again. But how does wearing a mask hurt the economy?
 

DrZoidberg

Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
10,548
Location
Copenhagen
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I really don't care about unvaccinated adults. They get what they sow. But you do understand that children under 12 can't get vaccinated in the US yet?

Yes, but they're also the least at risk group. At some point we need to weigh pros and cons and decide what cost is worth paying for limited returns.

Every child that dies is a tragedy. Locking down and killing the economy also kills children. How many more children do you think dies from that?

I think it's important to acknowledge that the western lockdown crowd are about as crazy as the anti-vaxxers. It's people so caught up with supporting their side, vilifying the other side, that they fail to understand this isn't a black-and-white question. It never was.

I'm with you in not wanting to lock up the economy again. But how does wearing a mask hurt the economy?

I was talking about lockdowns. Not masks. But even with masks it's not straight forward.

We need to separate...

1) ...a mask law.
2) ...mask recommendations

Anything that is law has to be enforced. This diverts resources away from enforcing other crime. You also make life complicated. If you forgot your mask at home, because you are in a hurry, you will now miss your meeting. It's also impacts those at the extreme margins, like homeless people, in ways that the mainstream might not appreciate.

Mask recommendations is a different matter entirely than mask enforcement. There's zero cost to a government or the citizens to issue mask recommendations.

Me personally, I wear a mask on public transport no matter if it's recommended or not, as long as Covid is still in the news. It's such an easy thing to do that, and a mask takes no space in the pocket. I think we should wear masks. I think it's stupid not to. But that's my opinion. I want people to be free to make up their own mind on this. And I don't think the danger of not wearing masks is serious enough to warrant legal force. So I'm against making it a legal requirement.
 

untermensche

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
24,504
Location
Here
Basic Beliefs
magic mood ring
Anything that is law has to be enforced. This diverts resources away from enforcing other crime.

It gives people a job and something useful to do in an insane society filled with those that don't give a crap about others.

Why give speeders a ticket?
 

Angry Floof

Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
14,629
Location
Sector 001
Basic Beliefs
Humanist

Yeah, that's totally how medicine works. ;)

This just shows how easy it is to apply backward religious moralizing to an issue where education and reason are required if you want a safe and humane solution. But "safe and humane solution" is not something right wing heads actually care about. They care about latching onto bullshit memes to feel like they've gotten one over on the enemy, not about actual right or wrong or solving actual problems.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
39,250
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Gotta love repoman's continual passive-aggressive anti-vaxxer postings.... oh but they vaccinated... they just love sowing doubt.

Why is it approved for a pregnant woman and not a child? Possibly because a fetus isn't a child and the biological systems are quite different? Because biology isn't black and white?
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,790
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Fetuses and newborns don't have functioning immune system. They rely on the mother.
It takes some time to start immune system after being born,
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
5,469
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
Fetuses and newborns don't have functioning immune system. They rely on the mother.
It takes some time to start immune system after being born,

Google "thalidomide" for an object lesson on why treating fetuses with medicine tested on adults is a dangerous idea.
Tom
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
16,723
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
Fetuses and newborns don't have functioning immune system. They rely on the mother.
It takes some time to start immune system after being born,

Google "thalidomide" for an object lesson on why treating fetuses with medicine tested on adults is a dangerous idea.
Tom

Women are not forbidden to get routine vaccinations during pregnancy and in fact, are strongly encouraged to receive the flu vaccine during pregnancy and also the tdap vaccine, especially between 27 and 36 weeks of pregnancy, to help prevent pertussis in their newborn. Pertussis, or whooping cough, can be very dangerous to newborns. Apparently, I nearly died at 8 months when I contracted pertussis. One of the first questions I was asked at my first prenatal visit was about my vaccination status and which childhood diseases I had had (all of them).

Because of thalidomide and the birth defects and newborn deaths it caused, there is much greater regulation and monitoring of drugs today, Women are strongly steered away from taking many medications while pregnant but some are routinely prescribed and are considered safe. Including vaccinations.
 

TomC

Celestial Highness
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
5,469
Location
Midwestern USA
Gender
Faggot
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic deist
Women are not forbidden to get routine vaccinations during pregnancy and in fact, are strongly encouraged to receive the flu vaccine during pregnancy

OK.

My experience with pregnant women in the last year has been nearly zero. And I haven't asked personal questions, like, " Does your pediatrician recommend C19 vaccination while pregnant?"

What I do know is that fetal children are dependent and developing humans at a crucial stage in life. Medical treatments that carry minor risks, if any, to fully developed humans can have vastly different effects on humans who aren't fully developed.

I see very good reasons for putting the young, including the unborn, into a different category from adults.
Tom
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
16,723
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
Women are not forbidden to get routine vaccinations during pregnancy and in fact, are strongly encouraged to receive the flu vaccine during pregnancy

OK.

My experience with pregnant women in the last year has been nearly zero. And I haven't asked personal questions, like, " Does your pediatrician recommend C19 vaccination while pregnant?"

What I do know is that fetal children are dependent and developing humans at a crucial stage in life. Medical treatments that carry minor risks, if any, to fully developed humans can have vastly different effects on humans who aren't fully developed.

I see very good reasons for putting the young, including the unborn, into a different category from adults.
Tom

I do, as well. However, one must also consider that fetuses stand very poor chances of survival if their mother becomes extremely ill, such as with COVID19. This is the reason that women are encouraged to be vaccinated against influenza while pregnant (to protect them, and through them, their unborn child) and pertussis (so that their unborn child will be protected until old enough for its first vaccinations).

We also know that rubella can have devastating consequences for a developing fetus. Chicken pox can be fatal to both fetus and mother. Women are urged to be up to date on all routine vaccinations while pregnant and to get the flu vaccine. It protects them and it protects their child.

We know that antibodies pass through the placenta and protect unborn children. Those antibodies persist for months after birth-- longer, if the child is largely or exclusively fed breast milk. These antibodies protect infants until they are able to acquire their own antibodies through vaccination or through exposure (normal colds, etc.).

It is prudent to be concerned about the long term effects of medications and chemicals on the development and health of fetuses and of children. It is also prudent to be concerned about the long term effect of various viruses on fetuses and young children. We have some evidence that COVID19 has negative impacts on some people's cognitive function, among other long term effects some seem to experience as a result of infection. We need to do our utmost to protect the very young from such infection that may have lasting negative impacts on them for the rest of their lives.
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,790
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Fetuses and newborns don't have functioning immune system. They rely on the mother.
It takes some time to start immune system after being born,

Google "thalidomide" for an object lesson on why treating fetuses with medicine tested on adults is a dangerous idea.
Tom
Medicine and vaccines are not exactly the same thing. Plus Covid vaccine was tested on pregnant women.
 

marc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
2,073
Location
always on the move
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, skeptic, nerd
Top Bottom