Covid-19 miscellany

[TSwizzle]

The risk is negligible. Even the CDC has acknowledged that.

Evidence?

Google it. Even the CDC can’t support wearing masks outside.

As long as people are close to each other (and they are when there is high population density, or in gatherings outdoors), the virus gets passed on.

There is zero evidence that supports that the virus is spread significantly outside.

Frankly, I would be more concerned about this;

How do you explain the pressure on health care systems, the collapse in some places (e.g., India), etc.?

India is a third world shithole with third world health care.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Google it. Even the CDC can’t support wearing masks outside.

Okay, I Googled it. Here is what I found:

For example:
https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...safe-for-vaccinated-people-to-unmask-outdoors

New guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says it is safe for people who have been fully vaccinated against COVID-19 to be outside without a mask, but only in small groups.

They're talking about fully vaccinated people. Take a look:

https://static01.nyt.com/images/202...oors-cdc2-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

As you can see, the recommendation is that people who are unvaccinated wear masks in any event, except with members of their own household and small outdoor gatherings with only with fully vaccinated people.

There is zero evidence that supports that the virus is spread significantly outside.

That is false. Purely for example:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/superspreading-events/

But it is important to recognize that being outdoors is not a panacea. Often I hear people say that they can relax their mask-wearing and social distancing because they are outdoors. The White House superspreader event was outdoors, just giving one example of why this is not true. Being outdoors limits aerosolized spread, but does not limit large droplet spread, which is the main vector of spread anyway. If you are talking to someone a few feet away without a mask, you are showering them in droplets from your mouth, and if those droplets are teeming with SARS-CoV-2 they will likely catch it, whether or not you are outdoors.

Now, you can argue that it's not been established conclusively that the superspreading happened outdoors. But even assuming there is no conclusive evidence in any specific case (let us say), there is plenty of evidence that makes it probable in plenty of cases (not just in America). Further, the well-known fact that you "If you are talking to someone a few feet away without a mask, you are showering them in droplets from your mouth" and the fact that those droplets contain significant amounts of the virus is good evidence, in the sense one should care about: it increases the rational epistemic probabilistic assessment of transmission, in a significant manner, with respect to the assessment before you factor that in.

India is a third world shithole with third world health care.

Even assuming that India is a third world shithole with third world health care, the point is that the system is collapsing. It does not do that just on its own, without covid.

The system is on the brink of collapse in some parts of Argentina. You can say that is also a third world shithole, but even assuming it is (whatever that qualifies for you), in normal times the health care system nowhere near collapse. It's mediocre, but there is an ocean between mediocre and near collapse.

Also, it's improbable that transmission in significant numbers is only due to indoor transmission, given observed behaviors, when it how numbers went up, and given what we know about the virus. It is true that indoor transmission is the most important factor; it's not clear by how much, but probably by a significant factor. But even so, outdoors transmission is very probably significant for the reasons given (no, not if you are alone hiking in the mountains, obviously).

 

[zorq]

Google it. Even the CDC can’t support wearing masks outside.

As long as people are close to each other (and they are when there is high population density, or in gatherings outdoors), the virus gets passed on.

There is zero evidence that supports that the virus is spread significantly outside.

I don't think you actually read the CDC recommendations. CDC says you should still wear a mask outside if you aren't vaccinated or are going to be around other people in groups.

Personally, I avoid all unnecessary behavior that might lead to accidentally killing someone else. Even things that carry insignificant risks.

IMO, reckless assholes fire their guns in the air and refuse to wear a mask around strangers.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Even if the virus were spreading insignificantly everywhere, there's still a collective effect to consider. Spreading it without vaccinations across land over time creates opportunity for new strains that beat the vaccine.

This is Nature vs Technology. Technology would be kicking ass, but idiots decided to ally with the virus and endanger everyone else. Now we'll have to get booster shots every year.

Thanks idiots.

 

[bilby]

DRUG LOBBY ASKS BIDEN TO PUNISH FOREIGN COUNTRIES PUSHING FOR LOW-COST VACCINES
Big Pharma is fighting for tight control over Covid-19 vaccine production, limiting availability worldwide while reaping billions.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN’S administration is being asked to punish Hungary, Colombia, Chile, and other countries for seeking to ramp up the production of Covid-19 vaccines and therapeutics without express permission from pharmaceutical companies.

The sanctions are being urged by the drug industry, which has filed hundreds of pages of documents to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative outlining the alleged threat posed by any effort to challenge “basic intellectual property protections” in the response to the coronavirus pandemic.

The drug industry has sharply criticized any attempt to share vaccine patents or the technological knowledge needed to manufacture them, despite global need. According to one estimate, wealthy countries representing just 16 percent of the world’s population have already secured more than half of all Covid-19 vaccine contracts. And current projections show that much of the middle-income and developing world will not achieve widespread vaccinations for years. Some projections predict that low-income countries such as Mali, South Sudan, and Zimbabwe may not achieve significant levels of vaccination until early 2024.

On the plus side, perhaps Southern California Edison could hook Jonas Salk's grave up to a generator, and power thousands of homes.

 

[ZiprHead]

DRUG LOBBY ASKS BIDEN TO PUNISH FOREIGN COUNTRIES PUSHING FOR LOW-COST VACCINES
Big Pharma is fighting for tight control over Covid-19 vaccine production, limiting availability worldwide while reaping billions.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN’S administration is being asked to punish Hungary, Colombia, Chile, and other countries for seeking to ramp up the production of Covid-19 vaccines and therapeutics without express permission from pharmaceutical companies.

The sanctions are being urged by the drug industry, which has filed hundreds of pages of documents to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative outlining the alleged threat posed by any effort to challenge “basic intellectual property protections” in the response to the coronavirus pandemic.

The drug industry has sharply criticized any attempt to share vaccine patents or the technological knowledge needed to manufacture them, despite global need. According to one estimate, wealthy countries representing just 16 percent of the world’s population have already secured more than half of all Covid-19 vaccine contracts. And current projections show that much of the middle-income and developing world will not achieve widespread vaccinations for years. Some projections predict that low-income countries such as Mali, South Sudan, and Zimbabwe may not achieve significant levels of vaccination until early 2024.

On the plus side, perhaps Southern California Edison could hook Jonas Salk's grave up to a generator, and power thousands of homes.

My first thought was of Salk too.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

DRUG LOBBY ASKS BIDEN TO PUNISH FOREIGN COUNTRIES PUSHING FOR LOW-COST VACCINES
Big Pharma is fighting for tight control over Covid-19 vaccine production, limiting availability worldwide while reaping billions.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN’S administration is being asked to punish Hungary, Colombia, Chile, and other countries for seeking to ramp up the production of Covid-19 vaccines and therapeutics without express permission from pharmaceutical companies.

The sanctions are being urged by the drug industry, which has filed hundreds of pages of documents to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative outlining the alleged threat posed by any effort to challenge “basic intellectual property protections” in the response to the coronavirus pandemic.

The drug industry has sharply criticized any attempt to share vaccine patents or the technological knowledge needed to manufacture them, despite global need. According to one estimate, wealthy countries representing just 16 percent of the world’s population have already secured more than half of all Covid-19 vaccine contracts. And current projections show that much of the middle-income and developing world will not achieve widespread vaccinations for years. Some projections predict that low-income countries such as Mali, South Sudan, and Zimbabwe may not achieve significant levels of vaccination until early 2024.

On the plus side, perhaps Southern California Edison could hook Jonas Salk's grave up to a generator, and power thousands of homes.

I'm pretty certain he'd just burst into flames.

Immunizing the US, which apparently might not ever happen because of the freedumb movement, is part 1 of the multi-part solution to the global pandemic. We have to get Asia and Africa immunized too. And South America and Europe... everyone but the penguins in Antarctica. The pharmaceutical companies have been given a lot of money... and we will likely need boosters for a while, especially thanks to the freedumb movement. Biden can get cross, and I hope he gets cross on a phone call with these CEOs and tells them to shut the fuck up.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Even if the virus were spreading insignificantly everywhere, there's still a collective effect to consider. Spreading it without vaccinations across land over time creates opportunity for new strains that beat the vaccine.

This is Nature vs Technology. Technology would be kicking ass, but idiots decided to ally with the virus and endanger everyone else. Now we'll have to get booster shots every year.

Thanks idiots.

It is incredible that after enduring this for a year, losing close to 3/4's of a million in excess deaths... people are still underselling the virus. I wish we could just get to the part where only the idiots were dying, but Darwin's Law just isn't in effect for this disease.

 

[TSwizzle]

Okay, I Googled it. Here is what I found:

What you didn't find was any evidence that the virus is spread in any significant way outdoors.

There is zero evidence that supports that the virus is spread significantly outside.

That is false. Purely for example:

Still not evidence and you know it. All the headlines about "super spreader events" was politically motivated and flat out fearmongering. LA County banned outdoor dining based on zero evidence and were taken to court and told by the court to present evidence that showed outdoor dining was risky. They couldn't do it. They didn't even believe their own bullshit anyway. Governor Newsom exposed when he was caught dining with his pals at a restaurant.

So if you are trying to get me to change my behavior you have failed. I will not wear a mask outdoors until you show actual proof or evidence that the risk of catching/spreading the virus is significant. And since you can't, I guess we are done here.

 

[TSwizzle]

Personally, I avoid all unnecessary behavior that might lead to accidentally killing someone else. Even things that carry insignificant risks.

Really, still trotting this bullshit out ?

IMO, reckless assholes fire their guns in the air and refuse to wear a mask around strangers.

People wearing masks outside just advertise their stupidity but I'm polite enough to ignore it.

 

[repoman]

Even if the virus were spreading insignificantly everywhere, there's still a collective effect to consider. Spreading it without vaccinations across land over time creates opportunity for new strains that beat the vaccine.

This is Nature vs Technology. Technology would be kicking ass, but idiots decided to ally with the virus and endanger everyone else. Now we'll have to get booster shots every year.

Thanks idiots.

So, is there anyone here who can get even an amateur handle on this paper? (Which is so out of my league as to be calculus for a preschooler)

SARS-CoV-2-derived peptides define heterologous and COVID-19-induced T cell recognition

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-020-00808-x.pdf


It seems to be saying that previous infections of non covid-19 viruses are already giving T-cell reactions in many people to covid-19. How many parts of the virus other than the spike protein do people make antibodies to?

Will a previously infected person with the original covid-19 have a better immunity to variants than a vaccinated person who never had covid-19? Is the vaccine a one trick pony in regards to the immune response compared to the virus or the old types of vaccines from attenuated viruses that more closely resembled a live virus?

If these mRNA vaccines are lost opportunity costs for not having many more useful stable across variant segments (epitopes?) of the virus to train the immune system, we should know now.

For one real virus like Covid-19 how many different types of antibodies or other distinct reactions/memories happen with the immune system compared to just the spike proteins from these new vaccines?

 

[Gun Nut]

That last statement is true. And the main vaccination problem in the US is not vaccine availability, it's vaccine hesitancy.

And even a few Covid recovereds saying that the vaccine was way worse than Covid is adding to this hesitancy.

And? Is anybody who's had both even saying that?

I've had both, the disease was much worse.

Me too... and same... insofar as the disease did next to nothing to me besides long term loss of smell, and the vaccination did exactly nothing at all to me (except a bruised arm for 1 day)

 

[repoman]

And? Is anybody who's had both even saying that?

I've had both, the disease was much worse.

Me too... and same... insofar as the disease did next to nothing to me besides long term loss of smell, and the vaccination did exactly nothing at all to me (except a bruised arm for 1 day)

Still having smell loss? Have you looked into any treatment for it?

Does anyone know if there were clinical trials on giving vaccinations to people who had verified covid?


I have gone to a couple youtube videos with large view counts about vaccine side effects and scrolled down the comments. It seems like not a lot of strong negative reactions, less than 10% and maybe less than 5%. But have a few that involve dizziness and vision problems. These people need to be studied with the best equipment possible.

 

[bilby]

Even if the virus were spreading insignificantly everywhere, there's still a collective effect to consider. Spreading it without vaccinations across land over time creates opportunity for new strains that beat the vaccine.

This is Nature vs Technology. Technology would be kicking ass, but idiots decided to ally with the virus and endanger everyone else. Now we'll have to get booster shots every year.

Thanks idiots.

So, is there anyone here who can get even an amateur handle on this paper? (Which is so out of my league as to be calculus for a preschooler)

SARS-CoV-2-derived peptides define heterologous and COVID-19-induced T cell recognition

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-020-00808-x.pdf


It seems to be saying that previous infections of non covid-19 viruses are already giving T-cell reactions in many people to covid-19. How many parts of the virus other than the spike protein do people make antibodies to?

Will a previously infected person with the original covid-19 have a better immunity to variants than a vaccinated person who never had covid-19? Is the vaccine a one trick pony in regards to the immune response compared to the virus or the old types of vaccines from attenuated viruses that more closely resembled a live virus?

If these mRNA vaccines are lost opportunity costs for not having many more useful stable across variant segments (epitopes?) of the virus to train the immune system, we should know now.

For one real virus like Covid-19 how many different types of antibodies or other distinct reactions/memories happen with the immune system compared to just the spike proteins from these new vaccines?

You are asking questions on an Internet Discussion Board that require a three to five year full time biochemistry and immunology course from a reputable university to answer.

The probability that any answer you get could be both accurate and sufficient to enable you to understand it without many years of further questions, in this medium, is nil.

They're good questions. But you need an expert who probably isn't here (do we have any currently active immunologists, virologists, or even biochemists here with a specialisation relevant to this topic?) to answer the questions, and a level of background knowledge you don't appear to have yet in order to understand their answers.

This stuff is hideously complex, and on the bleeding edge of modern science. It's like going to the Moon. Technologically possible, but you can't do it without a shitload of engineering and technical background that you cannot possibly expect to get from asking strangers on the Internet.

And you certainly ain't going to get the answers from YouTube, which is a stinking cesspit of nonsense, where even if you do find information that's not total bollocks, it is necessarily so shallow that you can waste hours obtaining the amount of information you would find on the back cover of a textbook - and you would never find any of the information from inside that textbook in a lifetime of video consumption.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Man, asking a person why they don't want to get a shot is a lot like asking them why they support Trump. They have virtually no argument beyond 'you can't live in fear'. Yet, they seem to be the ones afraid of a vaccine. We're doomed. Stupidity needs to become a national export, because the US seems to be leading the world in it.

 

[bilby]

Man, asking a person why they don't want to get a shot is a lot like asking them why they support Trump. They have virtually no argument beyond 'you can't live in fear'. Yet, they seem to be the ones afraid of a vaccine. We're doomed. Stupidity needs to become a national export, because the US seems to be leading the world in it.

It's cute that you don't realise how much of it you're already exporting.

 

[TSwizzle]

Man, asking a person why they don't want to get a shot is a lot like asking them why they support Trump. They have virtually no argument beyond 'you can't live in fear'. Yet, they seem to be the ones afraid of a vaccine. {snip}

One of my colleagues, a Hispanic male in his mid 40s is not getting the vaccine. I asked him why and he said his kid (who I assume to be about 20) had "done all the research" and said he didn't need it because he was a youngish fit person and his own immune system would be sufficient. So he's taking his kid's advice. I don't think he is a Trump supporter. A colleague of my wife and her whole family is not getting it because they believe the government are "up to something" and don't think it's safe. Definitely not Trump supporters. But in both cases, they have an argument for not taking it.

 

[TomC]

Man, asking a person why they don't want to get a shot is a lot like asking them why they support Trump. They have virtually no argument beyond 'you can't live in fear'. Yet, they seem to be the ones afraid of a vaccine. {snip}

One of my colleagues, a Hispanic male in his mid 40s is not getting the vaccine. I asked him why and he said his kid (who I assume to be about 20) had "done all the research" and said he didn't need it because he was a youngish fit person and his own immune system would be sufficient. So he's taking his kid's advice. I don't think he is a Trump supporter. A colleague of my wife and her whole family is not getting it because they believe the government are "up to something" and don't think it's safe. Definitely not Trump supporters. But in both cases, they have an argument for not taking it.

What are these arguments? You didn't actually say.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Man, asking a person why they don't want to get a shot is a lot like asking them why they support Trump. They have virtually no argument beyond 'you can't live in fear'. Yet, they seem to be the ones afraid of a vaccine. {snip}

One of my colleagues, a Hispanic male in his mid 40s is not getting the vaccine. I asked him why and he said his kid (who I assume to be about 20) had "done all the research" and said he didn't need it because he was a youngish fit person and his own immune system would be sufficient. So he's taking his kid's advice. I don't think he is a Trump supporter. A colleague of my wife and her whole family is not getting it because they believe the government are "up to something" and don't think it's safe. Definitely not Trump supporters. But in both cases, they have an argument for not taking it.

What are these arguments? You didn't actually say.
Tom

It's an argument by identity politics.

 

[repoman]

Man, asking a person why they don't want to get a shot is a lot like asking them why they support Trump. They have virtually no argument beyond 'you can't live in fear'. Yet, they seem to be the ones afraid of a vaccine. {snip}

One of my colleagues, a Hispanic male in his mid 40s is not getting the vaccine. I asked him why and he said his kid (who I assume to be about 20) had "done all the research" and said he didn't need it because he was a youngish fit person and his own immune system would be sufficient. So he's taking his kid's advice. I don't think he is a Trump supporter. A colleague of my wife and her whole family is not getting it because they believe the government are "up to something" and don't think it's safe. Definitely not Trump supporters. But in both cases, they have an argument for not taking it.

I have gotten the first shot of Pfizer 11 days ago and will get the second in 10 days. It is obvious that it gives very good coverage for the original version, but lesser for the Brazil variant.

The question I have is would an older type of vaccine have been expected to have better more well rounded coverage.