Jimmy Higgins
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Current vaccine at 2 doses is 80%. It is trending the wrong way, but that is still effective (in a country not filled with blithering morons).
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Don2 (Don1 Revised)
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But 1 dose is 33%. Opening up a state or city with significant no dosers and 1-dosers is like training the delta variant to beat the vaccine. For NY, it's like running a marathon and for the last 30 feet, deciding to walk while yelling "I won!" Could they still win? Maybe. But why risk it? For states and counties with significant Trump voters, the odds of fucking this up by creating a new strain are far worse. And to be open, why we are even bothering at this point has crossed my mind. These Trump places are most likely going to create the next variant that beats the vaccine anyway. I should just scream the pandemic is over like everyone else and then get my annual booster because it's here to stay.
Jimmy Higgins
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1 Dose is 50% against alpha. It was always 2 doses to be fully immunized.
Sure, I was commenting on Loren's statement that the vaccine was ineffective with delta.
Yes, we are pretty much irrelevant at this point, but we've been irrelevant since last spring, because all opinions carry the same weight, regardless how awfully wrong they are. Masks are stupid, children are incapable of transmitting viruses, it is time to move on.
TSwizzle
I am unburdened by what has been.
I was at Costco yesterday evening. There was a sign on the door saying if you are vaccinated no mask required. So I went in maskless. The majority of people were wearing masks but there were still plenty maskless people but no high fives. A few Costco employees were not wearing their masks properly, i.e. they had them dangling from their ear. All the checkout staff appeared to be wearing masks. I'm not sure what to make of that. Are vaccinated people still wearing masks or were the masked people just not vaccinated ? My wife was with me and she wore her mask even although she is fully vaccinated.
I would hope not. It's either stupidity, ignorance or irrational fear. Yesterday morning I saw a girl riding a moped down La Brea wearing a mask.
Our office building put out a notice pretty much saying it's up to the individual whether they wear masks or not. I think Newsom signed an executive order about the masks but I didn't catch what it was about.
Angels had their first game at Angel Stadium with no restrictions last night. Crowd was reported as 40k+. On a Thursday night against Detroit, that's impressive. Most people in the crowd not wearing masks. Most of the teams were not wearing masks either. Angels won, Taylor Ward got his first career grand slam !
Jimmy Higgins
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Like nothing has changed. Well, we aren’t at herd immunity levels yet. So that hasn’t changed. Children aren’t vaccinated, so that hasn’t changed.
Sure those that are vaccinated don’t need to wear masks, at least until the mutation that kills vaccination benefits, but some feel they need to wear one if their children wear one or if the people working at the stores wear one. I’m sorry that offends you. It must feel terrible.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
Your wife seems like an intelligent person.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
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Someone said people didn't get the memo. I have posted the memo here after circling the fine print.
ETA: So I think the assessment of how safe something may be has built-in assumptions. For example...in a crowded area with unvaccinated people not wearing masks, that is not assumed in any cases...but even if it were, the severity of covid for a vaccinated person becoming infected is supposed to be low. Moreover, the "memo" applies to individual short-term safety--it does not apply to efforts to not spread virus around as much....if you want to be very cautious about not spreading it around because you live in a high risk city or you are surrounded by unvaccinated, maskless people, then it might make sense to mask up.
ETA: So I think the assessment of how safe something may be has built-in assumptions. For example...in a crowded area with unvaccinated people not wearing masks, that is not assumed in any cases...but even if it were, the severity of covid for a vaccinated person becoming infected is supposed to be low. Moreover, the "memo" applies to individual short-term safety--it does not apply to efforts to not spread virus around as much....if you want to be very cautious about not spreading it around because you live in a high risk city or you are surrounded by unvaccinated, maskless people, then it might make sense to mask up.
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Herd immunity requires 100 * (1- 1/R0)% immune.
A minimum value of the R0 of Delta is 5. 100 * (1 - 1/5) = 80%, just barely enough if everyone is vaccinated. They're not.
In a country not filled with blithering morons, the immunocompromised or those who can't be vaccinated for whatever reason.
Jimmy Higgins
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That’d led to localized outbreaks though, not fullout repandemic.
A couple more variants though, and we have officially wasted billions in spending and a year of precaution, at leSt those who aren’t assholes that led to the spread that killed a quarter million in winter.
A couple more variants though, and we have officially wasted billions in spending and a year of precaution, at leSt those who aren’t assholes that led to the spread that killed a quarter million in winter.
untermensche
Contributor
Where do you get the minimum value of R0 for the Delta variant?
And that 5 is only for non-immunized people.
It is less for immunized people.
thebeave
Contributor
I appreciate your helpful input and concern for my being offended and my feelings of terribleness.
thebeave
Contributor
I was at Costco yesterday evening. There was a sign on the door saying if you are vaccinated no mask required. So I went in maskless. The majority of people were wearing masks but there were still plenty maskless people but no high fives. A few Costco employees were not wearing their masks properly, i.e. they had them dangling from their ear. All the checkout staff appeared to be wearing masks. I'm not sure what to make of that. Are vaccinated people still wearing masks or were the masked people just not vaccinated ? My wife was with me and she wore her mask even although she is fully vaccinated.
I would hope not. It's either stupidity, ignorance or irrational fear. Yesterday morning I saw a girl riding a moped down La Brea wearing a mask.
Our office building put out a notice pretty much saying it's up to the individual whether they wear masks or not. I think Newsom signed an executive order about the masks but I didn't catch what it was about.
Angels had their first game at Angel Stadium with no restrictions last night. Crowd was reported as 40k+. On a Thursday night against Detroit, that's impressive. Most people in the crowd not wearing masks. Most of the teams were not wearing masks either. Angels won, Taylor Ward got his first career grand slam !
Here's "the memo" on the June 15 reopening of California from the insufferable prick:
https://covid19.ca.gov/safely-reopening/
Regarding masks, specifically:
Masks
California’s Department of Public Health has updated statewide masking guidance to match the CDC’s guidance, lifting California’s mask requirements for vaccinated individuals starting on June 15. Vaccinated people are able to come together without masks in most circumstances.
People who are unvaccinated must continue to wear a mask indoors in public settings to protect themselves and others. Also, there are some settings where masking is still required for everyone, such as:
Public transit
Hospitals
Long-term care facilities
Homeless shelters
Indoors in K-12 schools, childcare, and other youth settings
See CDPH’s Guidance for the Use of Face Coverings to learn where masks are recommended or may be required.
We have a pretty high vaccination rate in my area, so it is a bit of a mystery why pretty much 100% of people I saw in the stores were wearing masks. People still driving around by themselves in their car wearing masks as well.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
Businesses want to appeal to consumers. If they have a policy to remove masks, then that creates a problem for some customers since customers do not know the vaccination statuses of the employees. If they have a policy to wear masks, then that does not cause customers to leave. It is also more responsible to stop the spread. Therefore, it is a more sound business decision.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
I was at Costco yesterday evening. There was a sign on the door saying if you are vaccinated no mask required. So I went in maskless. The majority of people were wearing masks but there were still plenty maskless people but no high fives. A few Costco employees were not wearing their masks properly, i.e. they had them dangling from their ear. All the checkout staff appeared to be wearing masks. I'm not sure what to make of that. Are vaccinated people still wearing masks or were the masked people just not vaccinated ? My wife was with me and she wore her mask even although she is fully vaccinated.
I would hope not. It's either stupidity, ignorance or irrational fear. Yesterday morning I saw a girl riding a moped down La Brea wearing a mask.
Our office building put out a notice pretty much saying it's up to the individual whether they wear masks or not. I think Newsom signed an executive order about the masks but I didn't catch what it was about.
Angels had their first game at Angel Stadium with no restrictions last night. Crowd was reported as 40k+. On a Thursday night against Detroit, that's impressive. Most people in the crowd not wearing masks. Most of the teams were not wearing masks either. Angels won, Taylor Ward got his first career grand slam !
Here's "the memo" on the June 15 reopening of California from the insufferable prick:
https://covid19.ca.gov/safely-reopening/
Regarding masks, specifically:
Masks
California’s Department of Public Health has updated statewide masking guidance to match the CDC’s guidance, lifting California’s mask requirements for vaccinated individuals starting on June 15. Vaccinated people are able to come together without masks in most circumstances.
People who are unvaccinated must continue to wear a mask indoors in public settings to protect themselves and others. Also, there are some settings where masking is still required for everyone, such as:
Public transit
Hospitals
Long-term care facilities
Homeless shelters
Indoors in K-12 schools, childcare, and other youth settings
See CDPH’s Guidance for the Use of Face Coverings to learn where masks are recommended or may be required.
We have a pretty high vaccination rate in my area, so it is a bit of a mystery why pretty much 100% of people I saw in the stores were wearing masks. People still driving around by themselves in their car wearing masks as well.
I really can't understand why so many people get so upset about wearing a mask? I understand getting mad about paying taxes or getting a permit to build a gazebo. What is the great cost in wearing a mask? I don't get it. Half the time I forget that I have one one (that could explain some people driving in a car with one on).
thebeave
Contributor
I was at Costco yesterday evening. There was a sign on the door saying if you are vaccinated no mask required. So I went in maskless. The majority of people were wearing masks but there were still plenty maskless people but no high fives. A few Costco employees were not wearing their masks properly, i.e. they had them dangling from their ear. All the checkout staff appeared to be wearing masks. I'm not sure what to make of that. Are vaccinated people still wearing masks or were the masked people just not vaccinated ? My wife was with me and she wore her mask even although she is fully vaccinated.
I would hope not. It's either stupidity, ignorance or irrational fear. Yesterday morning I saw a girl riding a moped down La Brea wearing a mask.
Our office building put out a notice pretty much saying it's up to the individual whether they wear masks or not. I think Newsom signed an executive order about the masks but I didn't catch what it was about.
Angels had their first game at Angel Stadium with no restrictions last night. Crowd was reported as 40k+. On a Thursday night against Detroit, that's impressive. Most people in the crowd not wearing masks. Most of the teams were not wearing masks either. Angels won, Taylor Ward got his first career grand slam !
Here's "the memo" on the June 15 reopening of California from the insufferable prick:
https://covid19.ca.gov/safely-reopening/
Regarding masks, specifically:
Masks
California’s Department of Public Health has updated statewide masking guidance to match the CDC’s guidance, lifting California’s mask requirements for vaccinated individuals starting on June 15. Vaccinated people are able to come together without masks in most circumstances.
People who are unvaccinated must continue to wear a mask indoors in public settings to protect themselves and others. Also, there are some settings where masking is still required for everyone, such as:
Public transit
Hospitals
Long-term care facilities
Homeless shelters
Indoors in K-12 schools, childcare, and other youth settings
See CDPH’s Guidance for the Use of Face Coverings to learn where masks are recommended or may be required.
We have a pretty high vaccination rate in my area, so it is a bit of a mystery why pretty much 100% of people I saw in the stores were wearing masks. People still driving around by themselves in their car wearing masks as well.
I really can't understand why so many people get so upset about wearing a mask? I understand getting mad about paying taxes or getting a permit to build a gazebo. What is the great cost in wearing a mask? I don't get it. Half the time I forget that I have one one (that could explain some people driving in a car with one on).
I'm not upset, just trying to figure out the contradiction between what our state government is telling us, and the subsequent reaction I'm seeing. We are told by our government that covid decisions are based on science, so assuming this latest decision is science based, why are people ignoring the science? I agreed about the need to wear a mask during the deadly days of the pandemic, and I did so without complaint (well, mostly anyway
). But at some point, when things have slowed to a (more or less) trickle don't we ditch the masks (even if there is still a tiny bit of risk to some people)? That dividing line between mask and no mask is obviously a bit subjective, but are we going to wait until there is only death per day in the whole state? There are some annoyances about wearing a mask. One of my big ones is parking in a store parking lot, walking to the entrance (sometimes a long way), then forgetting that I didn't put on the mask or forgot to bring it. So, I got to make the long trudge back to my truck to get my mask. That has probably happened to me a few dozen times, though less often these last few months as it gets ingrained in my head. The other thing for me personally is that I'm 60 years old now, and I have a job where I'm on my feet all day long, doing physically demanding work at times. It gets hard to breathe sometimes (especially when its 100 deg outside) and it fogs up your reading glasses.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
I'm not upset, just trying to figure out the contradiction between what our state government is telling us, and the subsequent reaction I'm seeing. We are told by our government that covid decisions are based on science, so assuming this latest decision is science based, why are people ignoring the science? I agreed about the need to wear a mask during the deadly days of the pandemic, and I did so without complaint (well, mostly anyway
There are some annoyances about wearing a mask. One of my big ones is parking in a store parking lot, walking to the entrance (sometimes a long way), then forgetting that I didn't put on the mask or forgot to bring it. So, I got to make the long trudge back to my truck to get my mask. That has probably happened to me a few dozen times, though less often these last few months as it gets ingrained in my head. The other thing for me personally is that I'm 60 years old now, and I have a job where I'm on my feet all day long, doing physically demanding work at times. It gets hard to breathe sometimes (especially when its 100 deg outside) and it fogs up your reading glasses.
Well yea, wearing the mask isn't ideal. I definitely am not going to wear it out while working out. So I work out at home! I just feel that wearing a mask in general is such a small inconvenience for the price of opening up our economy again. That's the issue. If we don't get a handle on covid, our economy will be toast. I am now very confident in the direction where we are going. However, I can tell you that I personally know three people (one who is a close friend) who lie when asked if they've been vaccinated, and who refuse to wear a mask. These are the people who should be condemned because they threaten us achieving herd immunity. But yea, I get what you're saying. I'm very glad that I don't live in an area which regularly experiences 100 deg heat!
TSwizzle
I am unburdened by what has been.
I've no idea what he vaccination rate in my area is. There's one guy in our office who won't get vaccinated and he was out sick this week. He did take a covid test on Thursday and was negative.
Maybe Uber drivers and they have to, forgot to take it off after coming out a store ? I see the occasional lone driver with a mask on, but not many.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
A bit earlier in the pandemic I'd go to the grocery store and I'd park away from other vehicles in an area where there were not other cars, like at least 3 spaces away from cars in all other directions. Then, when I got out, I'd put the mask on, walk to the store, shop, walk back to the car...and when I got back to the car, invariably there'd be someone parked right next to my driver's side...usually more than one car parked directly next to me. There'd be someone unknown to me who had just gotten out of their car with their driver's side next to mine....because I do "pull throughs" to avoid risk of accident when backing up while the other person didn't do a pull through and just parked next to me. They also had gotten out of their car and were breathing all in the space where I would breathe getting in my car and they parked so close it's not like I can get in my car in 1 second, but more like 5. Needless to say, my wearing a mask reduced transmission of the virus to me, even if outside, but it wasn't just near my car door, it was also near the entrance and exits of the grocery store where constant all-day-long people would be breathing there with no mask and then putting the mask on right at the entrance or taking it off right at the exit. The added benefit was that I didn't have to worry about remembering the mask later on because I was already wearing it.
My wife, on the other hand, has a 5 minute drive to work. She would put a mask on upon leaving the house so that she had a routine where she would always remember to be wearing a mask. Initially she was not putting it on until at work but she forgot masks a couple of times and so she did this routine instead because she could identify if she had forgotten a mask right where the masks were. Trying to put it on was her signal to ensure she had it.
Now the other day, guess what happened. After a year and a half, I decided to go get a haircut for the 2nd time. There was another time in there where I cut it myself. So this was my 3rd haircut. I generally leave my mask on my kitchen table. It's a new cloth one that I bought at a clothing store. Anyway, I grabbed the mask off the kitchen table. Then, I drove to get a haircut. Upon getting out of the car, I did not wear the mask. I have been vaccinated fully and am loosening up my restrictions to myself. I stopped to read the sign to see Supercut's policies and found they require mask wearing. So I put the mask on at the door. Then, I went inside and began talking about the haircut. It was at that moment, that I noticed a distinct odor. From the mask. Cat piss. Yes, apparently, my cat chose to prank me by sneaking up on the kitchen table and urinating on my mask when no one was around to see. I wasn't sure what to do at that point and was considering staying there suffering through it until I had an idea and politely excused myself for a moment. We keep disposable masks in the car but my son has been driving the car almost exclusively--long story. So there were two masks in there, one it looked like he had worn and the other was in the middle console. So I put that one on and it smelled like tobacco and menthol. My son has been doing dip and I think he must have stored the dip next to the mask at some point. That's the best case scenario. So I had to suck it up and go with the best of two bad choices, to wear the mask so I could get a haircut or drive back, come back with a proper mask and do so, which I didn't want to do. Now I have a routine where I hang up the masks on the kitchen cabinet knobs up high where the cat will not urinate on them and I also smell masks before bringing them with me.
Long story short--people have different views of risk because of personal things going on but also some idiosyncratic routines they implement to help them remember things or decrease risk of inefficiency.
TomC
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Here's the problem I see.
The biological sciences, like epidemiological and biological studies, are far from complete. We just don't have the answers to some important questions, and won't without more time to study and analyze.
What's important now are the soft sciences. The psychological effects of authoritative pronouncements and efforts to squelch the threat.
In the USA, the medical authorities are up against partisan politics. Medical authorities keep updating as more and better data comes in. Politicians like Trump keep making contradicting assertions. And Trumpish bullshit keeps getting repeated by the media who depend on selling advertising to Trump's supporters.
That's the big problem.
Tom