Covid-19 miscellany

[Elixir]

It was Satan.

No debbil required.
That's just what happens when your wimpy ass god can't stand up to a single strand of fuggin RNA.

 

[Toni]

That aside, you say "Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.".

How deadly?

The flu is a deadly disease: it kills many people. Covid is much deadlier. But again, where to draw the line? (at any rate, how about those willing to get infected and isolated to get immunity? )

1) Flu is not a serious threat to a healthy person. They conduct medical studies in which (young, healthy) people are deliberately infected with flu. That is considered acceptable medical practice because it poses basically zero risk of serious consequences to the test subjects.

2) We have already learned that getting infected doesn't produce immunity--you're immune to that version but it very well might not protect you from variants. The vaccine (other than the Chinese crap that's a killed-virus vaccine, provides about the same protection as prior infection--bad) provides better protection than prior infection.

Influenza is not usually a serious disease to a healthy person. My daughter (20's) became quite ill with the flu a few years back and was nearly hospitalized. I was extremely ill with the flu about 20 years ago, which has prompted me to always get my flu shot ever since.

We don't know how long immunity to any version lasts, whether immunity was acquired through disease or through infection, although evidence seems to indicate that it is most effective for about 5-6 months. Vaccination does seem to provide protection against serious disease from known variants but we do not know for how long or if it will remain effective against future variants or even all those currently known.

We DO know that variants are arising in unvaccinated people, meaning that remaining unvaccinated isn't merely a personal choice but also a threat to the general population wherever you live and travel and also world wide.

 

[jab]

Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.

I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.

And that is an intelligent reason?

It's a bad reason, yes, but one might wish that they would be more willing to reassess their anti-vaxx position rather than thinking about how best they can own the libs.

Actually, it may be more related than you think. "Owning the libs" is basically an expression of personal ego. Just take a look at all those politicians who are pushing their "conservative agenda". They wouldn't do that unless they thought it would add to their public visibility and increase their importance in the eyes of their constituents. The same is true of those doctors and scientists who are pushing back against the vaccine; they have found a way to make themselves highly visible and make money too. I don't think it actually has a single thing to do with what they actually know or believe.

If you want to know what more intelligent people who reject vaccines believe, I would suggest reading their arguments. Some are just rattled because some of their freedoms are taken away in a way that interferes seriously with their lifestyle (which involves not using medicine for the most part, avoiding processed foods or other things when doable, etc.).

Their freedoms are not as important as their health.

And even if they are stupid enough to believe that they are, their freedoms are most certainly not more important than my health.

People who engage in behaviours that are damaging to others are routinely restrained from doing so by society. That's pretty much the sole purpose of society in the first place.

I have zero sympathy for childish individualists who insist that they have the freedom to endanger others. Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.

Fuck their lifestyle. My lifestyle requires that my family don't have their lives endangered by the counter-factual beliefs of spoiled middle class brats whose lives have been so effectively protected against disease that they have no concept of how dangerous it can be.

You can tell when someone is "more intelligent", by the fact that they do NOT reject vaccines. (Or clean water, or food safety standards, or traffic regulations, or any of the thousands of technological and social advances that enable us to live long, healthy, and pleasant lives).

I suppose these intelligent people also think they should be allowed to drive while inebriated with organic, naturally produced brew.

 

[jab]

Well, the guy I mentioned is willing to get infected and isolated. But that aside, generally these people do not believe they are endangering others (yes, they are mistaken, but the motivation is different).

So these people are stupid.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Minnesota Omicron case was community spread. So Omicron is here, and we await to see its impact.

We had a company meeting on federal mandated vaccination because in civil engineering, very few jobs don't involve Fed money (no new taxes!), there were some ridiculous questions and comments from the anti-vaxxers. One sounded like the bodily fluids Brig. General in Dr. Strangelove.

Well, the guy I mentioned is willing to get infected and isolated. But that aside, generally these people do not believe they are endangering others (yes, they are mistaken, but the motivation is different).

So these people are stupid.

And said stupidity would have been okay a while ago, but there is no excuse at this point. It has gone from stupidity to stupid willful denial.

 

[jab]

Society does not have a purpose. Humans, like other monkeys, are social animals. Society just is.

So, apparently you believe that being a social species has no evolutionary advantage.

 

[crazyfingers]

Socialism comes to the anti-vaxxers.

Red States Are Now Paying Unemployment Benefits to Anti-Vaxxers Who Quit Their Jobs

Republican governors have decided to coddle vaccine refusers, even as they cut benefits for everyone else.

slate.com

If you'd rather get a government check than work, refuse to be vaccinated.
Tom

Truly twisted

 

[jab]

Sure thing, a guy making it easy for you to protect yourself from a deadly disease is to blame instead of the plague rats.

“Plague rats”, how quaint. But in any event, for the vast majority of people, vaccinated or not, covid 19 is not a deadly disease.

Slice and spin them stats to create a false perception. The problem is, as you know, is the part you just sliced out of your statistical special pleading: covid-19 is highly infectious, so it--pushed along by its wilful Covid Dons--kills a lot of people (and has long-term effects on a lot more).

 

[jab]

1. Suppose I say "COVID usually only kills those fully vaccinated people who are already severely weakened.". Do you have evidence that the 'usually' is more so for the flu, and by a significant margin?
To put it in other words, do you have good evidence that the flu is less dangerous than COVID is to fully vaccinated people, and also by a margin that would justify radically different treatments.

Further, suppose you add face masks - good and properly used. Do you think COVID poses overall a significantly greater risk to fully vaccinated people when unvaccinated people are wearing good masks, than the flu?

2. Even if they are severely weakened, it does not mean something else will get them - especially not if respiratory illnesses are not around.

Relevance to your argument?

 

[jab]

Before Delta, but after Alpha, Gamma and Lambda, and it still worked against those. So, it does work against variants - at least, against those that were around when the study was carried out. Do you think it would not work against Delta? Well, now Delta is here, and fatalities continue to fall, and as far as one can tell, it continues to work. Sure, you could say they fall for another reason, and it does not work anymore. But do you have evidence of that?

Omicron, anyone?

 

[jab]

The most common trait I find with anti-vaxxers is that they act butthurt, they've been cheated out of their just rewards - somehow - by the rest of the world. I really don't get the attitude but I've anecdotally been keeping track.

The lockdown zealots and mask nazis get severely butt hurt when the plebs refuse to comply. The mere thought of someone not wearing a mask triggers them.

I personally have not witnessed the same reaction that for antivaxxers is typically filled with emotion. We had dinner yesterday with family. One participant said she would not attend if everyone had not been vaccinated. That was it, no gratuitous emotion, just common sense and drawing her line. Not surprisingly one of the would-be attendees was in the hospital with covid, not vaccinated, likely to be put on a ventilator.

So in my experience anyway your claim is highly dubious.

Outside of social media, what is called the real world, most people don’t obsess about it. Wear a mask, don’t wear a mask, vaccinated not vaccinated, it doesn’t come up.

I guess my workplace isn't the real world--nor is the seniors home in which my very elderly father lives. Nor are the workplaces of my 2 sisters.

 

[jab]

I am at a point where I will no longer work for a company/employer that I cannot trust, as I am past minimum retirement age too. So I understand perfectly your reasoning.

I can’t help but wonder how much of the employee shortfall is due to good workers refusing to work for an employer they don’t trust, or employers who don’t care how much their employees are endangered by working in unsafe conditions. I suspect this might be more the cause than the popular notions that vaccine mandates and stimulus money are the cause of not enough workers being available.

Ruth

I have questioned that too for quite a while now. Some industry claims that requiring vaccination will make it harder to fill open positions. I wonder if the lack of an employee vaccine requirement may be keeping even more people away. Even health care. If I was a health care worker i would NOT take a job where vaccination was not required

It's important to remember that vaccination isn't the primary issue with antivaxxers. They've all been vaccinated for other things. They all use seat belts and obey traffic signals, even drive on the right side of the road. Imagine that! Amazing! Their inability to recognize their antivaxxer idiocy is a symptom, the causes of which could fill every library on the planet. Having a rational, dispassionate discussion with one reveals that they lack the ability to recognize their inconsistent behavior. Maybe Dunning Kruger is the real reason. That's where I'd put my money.

No, no, earlier in the thread, several posters, (including one who otherwise insists on rigorous scientific evidence for claims about Covid, about masking, about vaccines, and about the flu) have), have used anecdotal evidence and perhaps some reading of news reports, and have demonstrated that many anti-vaxxers are intelligent folks. This same poster roundly ignored an apparently rigorous study, posted on this forum, that showed anti-vaxxers tend towards sociopathy. So maybe with the intelligent ones it's not so much Dunning-Kruger, as a sociopathic fuck-it mindset: a scintillating lack of empathy and recklessness.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I am at a point where I will no longer work for a company/employer that I cannot trust, as I am past minimum retirement age too. So I understand perfectly your reasoning.

I can’t help but wonder how much of the employee shortfall is due to good workers refusing to work for an employer they don’t trust, or employers who don’t care how much their employees are endangered by working in unsafe conditions. I suspect this might be more the cause than the popular notions that vaccine mandates and stimulus money are the cause of not enough workers being available.

Ruth

I have questioned that too for quite a while now. Some industry claims that requiring vaccination will make it harder to fill open positions. I wonder if the lack of an employee vaccine requirement may be keeping even more people away. Even health care. If I was a health care worker i would NOT take a job where vaccination was not required

It's important to remember that vaccination isn't the primary issue with antivaxxers. They've all been vaccinated for other things. They all use seat belts and obey traffic signals, even drive on the right side of the road. Imagine that! Amazing! Their inability to recognize their antivaxxer idiocy is a symptom, the causes of which could fill every library on the planet. Having a rational, dispassionate discussion with one reveals that they lack the ability to recognize their inconsistent behavior. Maybe Dunning Kruger is the real reason. That's where I'd put my money.

No, no, earlier in the thread, several posters, (including one who otherwise insists on rigorous scientific evidence for claims about Covid, about masking, about vaccines, and about the flu) have), have used anecdotal evidence and perhaps some reading of news reports, and have demonstrated that many anti-vaxxers are intelligent folks. This same poster roundly ignored an apparently rigorous study, posted on this forum, that showed anti-vaxxers tend towards sociopathy. So maybe with the intelligent ones it's not so much Dunning-Kruger, as a sociopathic fuck-it mindset: a scintillating lack of empathy and recklessness.

Actually, what you call "anecdotal evidence" is in this case decisive, as one is to assess whether all anti-vaccers are stupid/not intelligent people. Certainly, that is not so, regardless of whether anti-vaccers are more likely to be less intelligent, all other things equal. As to whether they are more likely to be psychopaths all other things equal, that is not relevant with respect to how intelligent or unintelligent they are. By the way, also it is not true that all anti-vaccers have been vaccinated against other things. Some have, and some have not. Most have, but they are only anti-Covid-vaccers. The (intelligent) Greek guy I mentioned before has not, as far as I can tell, gotten any vaccines (as an adult, anyway), though he also does not eat processed foods, avoids other medicines, etc., so more than an anti-vaccer he seems like an anti-modern-tech-in-the-body kind of guy.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Well, the guy I mentioned is willing to get infected and isolated. But that aside, generally these people do not believe they are endangering others (yes, they are mistaken, but the motivation is different).

So these people are stupid.

Some are, some are not. This guy is not - though he believes he would be endangering others, which is why he offers to get infected and isolated, and why he wears masks, keeps distances, etc.
But generally, for that matter, there are highly intelligent people who believe Jesus walked on water, raised the dead and resurrected. And others who are not stupid have Woke beliefs and/or believe they are winning the threads here even when their arguments are being torn apart (see nearly all threads on this forum). You are failing to see what ideology/religion does to the mind. They can still be intelligent or highly so, and as a result very competent in their respective domains of expertise.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Before Delta, but after Alpha, Gamma and Lambda, and it still worked against those. So, it does work against variants - at least, against those that were around when the study was carried out. Do you think it would not work against Delta? Well, now Delta is here, and fatalities continue to fall, and as far as one can tell, it continues to work. Sure, you could say they fall for another reason, and it does not work anymore. But do you have evidence of that?

Omicron, anyone?

Omicron is not relevant to the part of the exchange you are quoting. Still, do you think it will not work against Omicron? If so, why? At any rate, they can always make an Omicron-killed-virus vaccine if they needed to.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

1. Suppose I say "COVID usually only kills those fully vaccinated people who are already severely weakened.". Do you have evidence that the 'usually' is more so for the flu, and by a significant margin?
To put it in other words, do you have good evidence that the flu is less dangerous than COVID is to fully vaccinated people, and also by a margin that would justify radically different treatments.

Further, suppose you add face masks - good and properly used. Do you think COVID poses overall a significantly greater risk to fully vaccinated people when unvaccinated people are wearing good masks, than the flu?

2. Even if they are severely weakened, it does not mean something else will get them - especially not if respiratory illnesses are not around.

Relevance to your argument?

It is relevant to challenge Loren's argument, by making a parallel with COVID, and also by challenging one of the claims. You seem to not be aware of my exchange with Loren.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The experts at TWIV have made a statement about Omicron. "I agree that a new public health threat requires quick action. In this case that quick action is to get vaccinated. There is no need to do anything else".

https://pca.st/episode/4f76f872-9289-4188-ba06-4c0525b0f991


More good quotes:

"hysteria is really not necessary".

"we should all omicalm down"

Usually they are really pro lockdowns. Not this time.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Outside of social media, what is called the real world, most people don’t obsess about it. Wear a mask, don’t wear a mask, vaccinated not vaccinated, it doesn’t come up.

I guess my workplace isn't the real world--nor is the seniors home in which my very elderly father lives. Nor are the workplaces of my 2 sisters.

Yeah, it comes up at every morning meeting at my work. The numbers in Mass are up, the numbers in Berkshire county, as well, and the numbers in General Dynamics, status of mandates, both in the buildings owned by the military, and the satellite office owned by corporate.
But so do Work Goals and Performance Evaluations this time of year. Boss' boss plugging away at 'please move your goals to 100%.'

And remote workers.
And which schools sre taking what actions in response to yet another shooting.

It's a 'fact of life' in the real world, and no points for pretending it isn't.

 

[ZiprHead]

Anti-vax Republican who refused to certify Detroit's election died of COVID-19

A Michigan Republican who made national headlines for refusing to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election — and was a vocal anti-vaxxer who...

www.metrotimes.com

A Michigan Republican who made national headlines for refusing to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election — and was a vocal anti-vaxxer who downplayed COVID-19 — died after getting the virus. William Hartmann, the former Vice Chairman of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers, died on Tuesday, according to a Facebook post from friend Douglas Reimel. He was 63.

Keep it up, righties!

 

[lpetrich]

Anti-vax Republican who refused to certify Detroit's election died of COVID-19

A Michigan Republican who made national headlines for refusing to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election — and was a vocal anti-vaxxer who...

www.metrotimes.com

A Michigan Republican who made national headlines for refusing to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election — and was a vocal anti-vaxxer who downplayed COVID-19 — died after getting the virus. William Hartmann, the former Vice Chairman of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers, died on Tuesday, according to a Facebook post from friend Douglas Reimel. He was 63.

Keep it up, righties!

In Reddit, the subreddit r/HermanCainAward - Awarded… posthumously.

"Nominees have made public declaration of their anti-mask, anti-vax, or Covid-hoax views, followed by admission to hospital for Covid. The Award is granted upon the nominee's release from their Earthly shackles."

Named after former Republican Presidential candidate Herman Cain.

Michigan antivax conspiracy theory election official hospitalized, intubated : HermanCainAward
then
UPDATE William Hartmann, a Michigan GOP elections official, Jan 6 supporter, and vociferous antivaxxer, claims his shiny new Herman Cain Award. (Public figure; no redactions) : HermanCainAward