Daunte Wright shot with Taser. And by "taser," I mean, "Gun."

[Toni]

Not laughing dog but I think that when cops pull people over for traffic violations, they shouldn't kill them.

Ideally, no. But millions of traffic stops get conducted every year in the US, and only a very small fraction results in deadly force.
In this case you had a stop for expired tag (not air freshner[sic]!). But the young adult had a warrant for a gun, so he was getting arrested. Instead of letting the officer handcuff him, he resisted and dove into the car. So far, the bad choices are all on him. He had plenty of opportunity to get out of this alive and unharmed.

You will never be able to completely eliminate the possibility of cops making mistakes. But if you don't act as a dumbass, as this young adult did, your chances of getting shot during a traffic stop are infinitesimal.

Personally, I've been pulled over a number of times, usually for exceeding the speed limit. Fortunately for me, I tend to look like the white lady next door and the worst I've gotten is a warning. Nobody tried to haul me out of my car, or pointed a weapon at me or even spoke harshly to me.

Maybe that's because you did not have warrants for your arrest for things like illegal guns and open charges for things like aggravated robbery.
Are you suggesting the officers should not have told him to get out of the car and that they should not have tried to arrest him?

I'm suggesting that there was nothing that he did that warranted being shot with a gun or a taser.

Compare and contrast: A young white man, only a few years older, drives to several locations where he shoots and kills multiple persons, in an unprovoked attack. The police arrest him WHILE HE IS STILL ARMED AND THE POLICE KNOW HE HAS KILLED MULTIPLE PEOPLE and some how the police take him into custody and speak with him gently enough to get his explanation for what he did and why.

VS

Police pull over a young black guy who has a warrant out and shoot him with a taser that turns out to be a gun and kill him.

The police in the first scenario had a far, far, far better reason to be concerned for their safety and for public safety in the first scenario.

So, apparently your thinking is that known armed mass murderers who are white are far less a threat than an unarmed black guy with a warrant for a non-violent offense that is, under Minnesota law, a gross misdemeanor.

 

[Politesse]

Lack of training scenarios putting the officer under pressure, I would think.
She was likely suffering tunnel vision due to an adrenaline rush. She could not focus on what was in her hand but only on the suspect.

I agree that she was suffering tunnel vision and that she was focusing only on the suspect. Who was black. And yeah: black is what I think 'distracted' her and captured her entire focus.

Maybe they do need to practice a lot more training scenarios with young black men as 'suspects' and the person they are pulling over for a traffic violation.

Rather dangerous for the volunteer "suspect", don't you think?

 

[Trausti]

Lack of training scenarios putting the officer under pressure, I would think.
She was likely suffering tunnel vision due to an adrenaline rush. She could not focus on what was in her hand but only on the suspect.

I agree that she was suffering tunnel vision and that she was focusing only on the suspect. Who was black. And yeah: black is what I think 'distracted' her and captured her entire focus.

Maybe they do need to practice a lot more training scenarios with young black men as 'suspects' and the person they are pulling over for a traffic violation.

She had a boyfriend named Duante and this traffic stopped triggered all those bad memories. Makes as much sense.

 

[Toni]

Lack of training scenarios putting the officer under pressure, I would think.
She was likely suffering tunnel vision due to an adrenaline rush. She could not focus on what was in her hand but only on the suspect.

I agree that she was suffering tunnel vision and that she was focusing only on the suspect. Who was black. And yeah: black is what I think 'distracted' her and captured her entire focus.

Maybe they do need to practice a lot more training scenarios with young black men as 'suspects' and the person they are pulling over for a traffic violation.

Rather dangerous for the volunteer "suspect", don't you think?

Ah, I wasn't thinking actual people involved.

Maybe they could just be fellow white officers in blackface?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, I've put this out there few times today that in 2007, I managed to get into a room in a room clearance drill with my rifle entirely backwards: forward pistol grip instead of stock, magazine instead of pistol grip, pistol grip instead of magazine, in the course of a quarter second. Weird shit can happen on adrenaline.

There needs to be an investigation, the officer needs to have a grand jury, and they need to hear arguments for Negligent Homicide and Manslaughter, all the same.

 

[Swammerdami]

Thoughts and prayers, especially for the cop, who probably regrets his action.

I hope the gun grabbers and cop haters will stifle their rants for at least a week after this incident, to allow the victim(s) and their families time to grieve.

 

[Derec]

I'm suggesting that there was nothing that he did that warranted being shot with a gun or a taser.

With taser surely. Why do you think it's fine for a suspect to resist arrest and dive into his car?

Compare and contrast: A young white man, only a few years older, drives to several locations where he shoots and kills multiple persons, in an unprovoked attack. The police arrest him WHILE HE IS STILL ARMED AND THE POLICE KNOW HE HAS KILLED MULTIPLE PEOPLE and some how the police take him into custody and speak with him gently enough to get his explanation for what he did and why.

Who are you talking about here? Did he break free as they were in the process of handcuffing him? Somehow I don't think so.

In any case, there are cases of questionable shootings of suspects of all races. In Georgia a few years ago a white teenager was shot dead because he answered his door with a wii controller that the cop mistook for a gun. And most people of all races get arrested without harm.

The big difference is all the violence that results when a black suspects gets shot.

So, apparently your thinking is that known armed mass murderers who are white are far less a threat than an unarmed black guy with a warrant for a non-violent offense that is, under Minnesota law, a gross misdemeanor.

A gross-misdemeanor, but not non-violent. And not knowing which case you had in mind, it's difficult for me to comment on it.

 

[Derec]

Thoughts and prayers, especially for the cop, who probably regrets his action.

Her.

 

[Derec]

Defending people protesting police abuse and murder is not defending everything they do.

Except Elixir is continuously dismissing "property damage" as a valid concern.

It is just saying they have a just cause. A real cause because of a real problem.

They do not have a real cause to riot and loot.

 

[barbos]

Thoughts and prayers, especially for the cop, who probably regrets his action.

Her.

I did not know Amber Guyger was reinstated.

 

[Derec]

So it's not a mistake to destroy property?

In the case of rioters, it's a deliberate act.

You're tying yourself in knots, dude.

Not at all. You are.

She made a mistake out of fear. Rioters make mistakes out of anger. *

She grabbed the wrong weapon by mistake.
The rioters make a deliberate choice. Yes, out of anger, and in case of looting, out of avarice, but what they are doing is a deliberate, premeditated criminal behavior. They have buttloads of mens rea.
Kimberly Potter had none.

There is a significant qualitative difference: Her mistake killed someone. Many people have been killed by the kind of mistake she made.

Define "many"? A mistake like this tends to happen once every few years it seems. Oscar Grant was one of the very few, and that was 12 years ago.

Please stop lying about what I "defend".

It sure looks like you are. Please be more clear next time.

*Often with impetus provided by white supremacist agitators. That includes right wing rioters responding to Donald Trump.

Zero of the people rioting and looting here wee "white supremacist agitators".

In fairness, it appears to have been a mistake (where "mistake" is another word for panic). So I'd say probably nothing less than losing her job as a cop, plus whatever they do to rioters who cause [property damage]

Whatever rioters and looters can be identified and prosecuted. Somehow I doubt Hennepin County DA will prosecute too many of them, unfortunately. And so Minneapolis will probably be getting these riots on the regular.

 

[Derec]

While getting pulled over for an Air freshener is complete bullshit;

It's bullshit propagated by Duante's mother. He was really pulled over because his registration was expired. A perfectly legitimate stop.

once the police identified him as having a warrant for failure to appear in court for illegal gun possession it wasn't about an air freshener anymore. The way I see it, his death is unfortunate and way more punishment than anything the judge would have given for the gun possession.

I agree. It is unfortunate. Had he allowed himself to be arrested he'd have done some time, including for the robbery if convicted on that too, but he'd be alive and well. Running from police is rarely advantageous.

The question now is, what should be done with the Officer who mistook her Gun for a Taser? Nothing?

Whatever punishment, professional or criminal is warranted, she deserves due process. Unfortunately the Brooklyn Center mayor disagrees.


Daunte Wright shooting: Brooklyn Center city manager fired after call for due process for police officer

Mike Elliott is an ass who deserves to lose reelection.

 

[Derec]

Nope.

What do you mean "nope"? You are demonstrably wrong. The causal chain does not start with the traffic stop.

I think it was either a real slow night on patrol or someone was racial profiling.

1. Try to get informed. The dude was stopped in the middle of the day.
2. Stopping people for expired registration is a legit stop. It has nothing to do with "profiling".

Apparently the officer in question did not think so because she thought she was using a taser. So you can stop with that line of crapola.

She was concerned enough to go for the taser.

Why would they want to take awy all the satisfaction you get from smearing the black shooting victim?

No satisfaction, and pointing out who a shootee really was as opposed to media hagiographies is not "smearing".

 

[J842P]

Lack of training scenarios putting the officer under pressure, I would think.
She was likely suffering tunnel vision due to an adrenaline rush. She could not focus on what was in her hand but only on the suspect.

Yeah. Anyone who argues "this can't have been an accident" is nuts. It's almost certainly an accident. What other scenario is likely? Some random cop decided she wanted to get away with murdering some kid on that day? But regardless, you have a potential manslaughter. I'm reminded of the Justine Damond case.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Lack of training scenarios putting the officer under pressure, I would think.
She was likely suffering tunnel vision due to an adrenaline rush. She could not focus on what was in her hand but only on the suspect.

Yeah. Anyone who argues "this can't have been an accident" is nuts. It's almost certainly an accident. What other scenario is likely? Some random cop decided she wanted to get away with murdering some kid on that day? But regardless, you have a potential manslaughter. I'm reminded of the Justine Damond case.

So I read on Reuters she’s a 26 year veteran. Best to wait and see what her track record is. It’ll come out soon enough.

 

[Derec]

Looks like there is rioting in Portland tonight as well. Another city whose leadership isn't doing enough against these left-wing radicals.

Riot declared outside Penumbra Kelly Building in NE Portland

 

[southernhybrid]

I've skipped several pages of this thread. Has anyone said that this same thing has happened in the US 9 times? Yes. Nine times a cop accidentally confused a gun for a taser and shot a suspect with the gun.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/13/us/daunte-wright-taser-gun.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Tasers look and feel different from pistols in a number of ways, and most police forces — including Brooklyn Center’s — have standard precautions and protocols in place to prevent the sort of mix-up that can be deadly.

So, are these accidents due to a lack of training or perhaps hiring people that aren't able to stay calm in difficult situations?

Tasers are often produced in bright colors, or with neon accents, to distinguish them from pistols. The Brooklyn Center Police Department manual cites the Glock 17, 19 and 26 as standard-issue for the department. All three pistol models weigh significantly more than a typical Taser. Glocks also have a trigger safety that can be felt when touching the trigger. Tasers do not. Grips on Tasers are typically different from those of firearms, as well, though they may feel similar because both are usually made of a similar type of polymer.

“If you train enough, you should be able to tell,” said Scott A. DeFoe, a retired sergeant with the Los Angeles Police Department.

n 2018, a rookie Kansas police officer mistakenly shot a man who was fighting with a fellow officer. In 2019, a police officer in Pennsylvania shouted “Taser!” before shooting an unarmed man in the torso. And in 2015, a former Oklahoma reserve deputy killed an unarmed man when he mistook his handgun for a stun gun.

Greg Meyer, a retired captain in the Los Angeles Police Department and a use-of-force expert, documented nine similar instances from 2001 to 2009 in a 2012 article published in a monthly law journal produced by Americans for Effective Law Enforcement, a nonprofit.

In six of the nine cases cited in the article, the officers carried both weapons on the same, “strong-hand” side of their bodies. In the other three, however, the officers carried the weapons on opposite hips with the Taser positioned so that they could cross-draw it, the article said.

In most cases, there has been little or no jail time for officers disciplined or tried for wounding or killing someone in situations in which they said they had mistaken a gun for a Taser. In the Pennsylvania case, for example, the district attorney said the officer violated a policy requiring officers to wear their Tasers on the side opposite their firearms. Still, he said the officer “did not possess the criminal mental state required to be guilty of a crime under state law.”

The articles gives more details as to why this sometimes happens. Of course, it should never happen and imo, the officer who confuses a gun with a taser, and kills someone, should be tried for involuntary manslaughter. But again, we have too many incompetent police who kill suspects. I'm being generous when I call them incompetent. Some are just trigger happy.

Btw, we were already discussing this in the Police misconduct thread. Do we really need a new thread every time something like this happens?

 

[Elixir]

Defending people protesting police abuse and murder is not defending everything they do.

Except Elixir is continuously dismissing "property damage" as a valid concern.

I have dismissed nothing. I have elevated to value of life (yes, Derec, even BLACK lives) over the value of property.
I have also noted that you devalue lives (particularly black lives) to be less than the value of property. That's your prerogative, and I appreciate that you are honestly representing your own assessment of what is worth what. But -

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So, I've put this out there few times today that in 2007, I managed to get into a room in a room clearance drill with my rifle entirely backwards: forward pistol grip instead of stock, magazine instead of pistol grip, pistol grip instead of magazine, in the course of a quarter second. Weird shit can happen on adrenaline.

There needs to be an investigation, the officer needs to have a grand jury, and they need to hear arguments for Negligent Homicide and Manslaughter, all the same.

America needs a viable justice board (outside of the Police Dept) to independently inquire on instances of police violence against civilians. They can establish a lower bar for what is acceptable force giving Police more leeway, but we need to start dealing with police violence on another judicial level as the murder or nothing standard has failed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The articles gives more details as to why this sometimes happens. Of course, it should never happen and imo, the officer who confuses a gun with a taser, and kills someone, should be tried for involuntary manslaughter. But again, we have too many incompetent police who kill suspects. I'm being generous when I call them incompetent. Some are just trigger happy.

Professional athletes make stupid mistakes too. Granted, it doesn't cost anyone their life, but it means the best can screw up. The question is, what should be the expected frequency of such mistakes.

One large issue here is that the chances of an accidental killing likely goes through the roof once weapons are drawn, whether actually needed or not.