Deception = Rape?

[Jolly_Penguin]

In mating, we deceive each other all the time, from very simple deception few would object to, such as make up and hair dye, to extreme cases such as lies about wealth and status, impersonating somebody else (ie, a celebrity look alike), and post-op transexuals not telling their new sex partners.

Do you believe that deception can amount to rape, if the sex partner consented to the sex, but on false pretenses?

If so, in what cases do you say it does, and in what cases not, and do you have uniform logic and reason as to what makes the difference?

And if not rape, is it wrong? In what cases and why or why not?

If a brunette dies her hair blonde is that considerably less bad than if a man dies out his grey hair to look younger? Remember that guy in China who sued his wife for them having ugly children because he didn't know she'd had plastic surgery? Did he have a point there or no?

 

[Derec]

Jimmy McGill a rapist? I don't think so.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

In mating, we deceive each other all the time, from very simple deception few would object to, such as make up and hair dye, to extreme cases such as lies about wealth and status, impersonating somebody else (ie, a celebrity look alike), and post-op transexuals not telling their new sex partners.

Do you believe that deception can amount to rape, if the sex partner consented to the sex, but on false pretenses?

If so, in what cases do you say it does, and in what cases not, and do you have uniform logic and reason as to what makes the difference?

And if not rape, is it wrong? In what cases and why or why not?

If a brunette dies her hair blonde is that considerably less bad than if a man dies out his grey hair to look younger? Remember that guy in China who sued his wife for them having ugly children because he didn't know she'd had plastic surgery? Did he have a point there or no?

Well, I can't think of a legitimate argument which would classify it as rape, but lying to someone to get things from them is an immoral action.

There is a difference in presenting yourself in the best light, through make up and hair dye and the like, and active deception where you present yourself as something that you're not.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If you dye your hair blue, I suppose there is no real deception because nobody would think its your real hair colour. If you dye out the grey in your hair to look younger, that's a lie.

How would you feel if you later discovered that you'd had sex with a post-op transexual? Would you feel violated?

How about if you had sex with an identical twin under the faulty perception that it was the other twin?

Is refusing to pay a prostitute after the act a rape, or just a breach of contract?

 

[Malintent]

if a woman wears makeup, is it a lie and her subsequent actions to win a mate, "rape"?

its a very slippery slope.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I am interested in your opinions moreso than the actual state of the law, but here is some information as to the latter from the wikipedia page on this:

In November 2015, British Judge Roger Dutton sentenced a 25-year-old woman, Gayle Newland, to eight years in prison for pretending to be a man as a means having sex with an unnamed woman of the same age. Newland had made her female victim believe that she was a man by means of deception and used the deception in order to have sex with her on more than 10 occasions. Newland's victim was shocked to discover that her "boyfriend" was in reality female, and testified in Chester Crown Court to a jury that she would have preferred to have been raped by a man.

In 2008, it was reported that a Massachusetts woman, Marissa Lee-Fuentes, unknowingly had sex with her boyfriend's brother in the dark basement that she was sleeping in. He could not be prosecuted because Massachusetts law requires that rape include the use of force.[6][7] Massachusetts State House Representative Peter Koutoujian crafted rape-by-fraud legislation in response,[8] but it did not pass because legislators found the law to be too broad.

In Norwalk, California, on February 20, 2009, Julio Morales snuck into a sleeping 18-year-old woman's darkened bedroom after he saw her boyfriend leave. The woman said she awoke to the sensation of someone having sex with her and assumed it was her boyfriend. When a ray of light hit Morales's face, and the woman saw he was not her boyfriend, she fought back and Morales fled...... ..... However, an appellate court ruled that the lower court had misread the 1872 law criminalizing rape-by-fraud. The law stated a man is guilty of rape-by-fraud if he impersonates a woman's husband in order to get her consent. The woman in this case was not married, and Morales had impersonated her boyfriend, not her husband. Because of this one technicality, the appellate court overturned Julio Morales's rape-by-trickery conviction in People vs. Morales in 2013.... ... To close this loophole in California's rape-by-fraud law, Assemblyman Katcho Achadjian (R-San Luis Obispo) – who tried to introduce a similar bill in 2011 – introduced Assembly Bill 65 and Senator Noreen Evans (D-Santa Rosa) introduced Senate Bill 59. The two bills quickly passed both houses without one dissenting vote, and were signed into law by Governor Jerry Brown on September 9, 2013.

A legal precedent in Israel classifying sex by deception as rape was set by the Supreme Court in a 2008 conviction of a man who posed as a government official and persuaded women to have sex with him by promising them state benefits

In 2010, a conviction of rape by deception drew international attention when it was first reported that a man deceived a woman into consensual sex within ten minutes of their first meeting by, according to the amended indictment, lying about being Jewish, unmarried, and interested in a long-term relationship.... ....However, it was later reported that the charge had actually been the result of a plea bargain with the defendant in what had originally been a rape-by-force case where the records were sealed by the judge to protect the identity of the victim and avoid the cross-examination of her.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If you dye your hair blue, I suppose there is no real deception because nobody would think its your real hair colour. If you dye out the grey in your hair to look younger, that's a lie.

Meh. I think you're overextending the definition of the word "lie". Yes, you're being less honest, but "lie" has other negative associations with it that don't really apply here.

How would you feel if you later discovered that you'd had sex with a post-op transexual? Would you feel violated?

No.

How about if you had sex with an identical twin under the faulty perception that it was the other twin?

Well, that would be somebody having sex with you when you didn't consent to having sex with that person. Different from simply deceiving them.

Is refusing to pay a prostitute after the act a rape, or just a breach of contract?

That would be a breach of contract. She did consent to have sex with you.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

if a woman wears makeup, is it a lie and her subsequent actions to win a mate, "rape"?

its a very slippery slope.

Yes, it is a very wide continuum, so I am curious how people on this board view it and what factors push things over the line into rape territory.

 

[Bronzeage]

There is an element of caveat emptor in every transaction, and sexual transactions are no different.

I think the discussions about make up, hair color to be quite funny. Why not carry a sign that says, "I will not have sex with unattractive people." You know, just for full disclosure.

The standard usually applied by the law is "informed consent." This is when a person has the necessary information to make a reasonable choice. If there is a fundamental deception, it may not be informed consent. After that, we have to consider how much the deception influenced the choice. If she washed her face before coming to bed, would he have gotten up and put on his pants?

I don't know of any state where a charge of rape is allowed without some form of physical threat existing at the time of the rape. The necessary condition is that the victim must fear some kind of harm, and submits.

The situation where one partner is misinformed and has sex with someone they might have declined, if all were known, is more of a civil contract dispute, than a criminal offense.

 

[dismal]

I dunno, there are certainly times I'd say it's fraud but I'm not sure where you cross the line into rape.

Even the most immoral and extreme examples I can imagine, like say marrying someone under a false name and then skipping out after the honeymoon feel more like fraud than rape -- though if someone said that were also rape I'm not sure I'd disagree.

A guy in a bar talking about needing some company before his space shuttle mission to save starving Ethiopians takes off in the morning seems like it should fall under the caveat emptor standard.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you get someone to have sex by impersonating a specific individual that they would consent to sex with I would call it rape.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Jimmy McGill a rapist? I don't think so.

It is interesting that you find a victimized woman screaming to be humorous.

 

[Bronzeage]

We need to careful to not dilute the definition of rape. There are cultures where rape is determined by the amount of resistance the woman gives. Paralytic fear is considered consent. In our enlightened society, we see it for what it is. We don't require a woman to take a beating, just to prove she did not want to have sex.


If we let the definition expand to false enticement, the man who says, "I'll love you forever," or, "Of course I'll respect you afterwards." If that becomes a legal standard, I could find myself to have been an unknowing rape victim, many times over.

 

[Derec]

It is interesting that you find a victimized woman screaming to be humorous.

i do not think she is "victimized" and yes, that scene was meant to be and actually is humorous.

 

[credoconsolans]

In mating, we deceive each other all the time, from very simple deception few would object to, such as make up and hair dye, to extreme cases such as lies about wealth and status, impersonating somebody else (ie, a celebrity look alike), and post-op transexuals not telling their new sex partners.

Do you believe that deception can amount to rape, if the sex partner consented to the sex, but on false pretenses?

If so, in what cases do you say it does, and in what cases not, and do you have uniform logic and reason as to what makes the difference?

And if not rape, is it wrong? In what cases and why or why not?

If a brunette dies her hair blonde is that considerably less bad than if a man dies out his grey hair to look younger? Remember that guy in China who sued his wife for them having ugly children because he didn't know she'd had plastic surgery? Did he have a point there or no?

Most women who wear makeup and dye their hair don't imagine their partners are wanting to date/have sex with/marry cosmetic things. They're thinking their partners want to date/have sex with /marry THEM. Their PERSON.

To run into someone who focuses on cosmetic things is unusual and disconcerting. A friend one time disappointed a would be date by dyeing her bleached hair back to her natural brunette AFTER she met him and agreed to a date.

His face fell when she met him at the door. With just that one look and his disappointed comment, she knew he was only interested in dating her hair, not her.

 

[RavenSky]

How about if you had sex with an identical twin under the faulty perception that it was the other twin?

Well, that would be somebody having sex with you when you didn't consent to having sex with that person. Different from simply deceiving them.

This exact thing did happen to me when I was 17. The identical twin of the guy I was dating came into my apartment and crawled into my bed for sex. At the time, I even thought something was *off* but put it down to me being woken from a sound sleep.

The next morning, all hell broke loose with the twin's girlfriend AND the guy I was dating blaming me as much as they blamed the twin... after all, I'd *willingly* slept with him.

No.

I was raped by deception.

 

[Arctish]

Well, that would be somebody having sex with you when you didn't consent to having sex with that person. Different from simply deceiving them.

This exact thing did happen to me when I was 17. The identical twin of the guy I was dating came into my apartment and crawled into my bed for sex. At the time, I even thought something was *off* but put it down to me being woken from a sound sleep.

The next morning, all hell broke loose with the twin's girlfriend AND the guy I was dating blaming me as much as they blamed the twin... after all, I'd *willingly* slept with him.

No.

I was raped by deception.

I am sorry that happened to you.

You are absolutely right. You were raped.

And that clip Derec thinks is funny isn't. At best it's a cruel celebration of exploiting women for sex and mocking their pain when the deception is discovered.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It is interesting that you find a victimized woman screaming to be humorous.

i do not think she is "victimized" ...

Of course you wouldn't think a female victim is victimized.

and yes, that scene was meant to be and actually is humorous.

Whether or not someone intended her victimization to be funny, your lack of victim empathy allows you to laugh.

 

[repoman]

i do not think she is "victimized" ...

Of course you wouldn't think a female victim is victimized.

and yes, that scene was meant to be and actually is humorous.

Whether or not someone intended her victimization to be funny, your lack of victim empathy allows you to laugh.

Of all possible things to get on Derec about concerning women and sex, this is about as milquetoast as it gets. The joke is imagining the woman only having sex with this guy because she thinks he is Kevin Costner - literally a starfucker and there are some men starfuckers out there as well. She is a victim of karma for being a starfucker. That shit is funny.

You are gonna dilute much more deserved outrage with this attitude. Just wait about 10 more posts and Derec will say something that is truly whacked out about this topic.

If someone else like Bronzeage or Jimmy Higgins posted this it would not get the same response.

You know, you all should never watch Breaking Bad again if this is your attitude.

I am gonna guess that at least one of you who is breaking Derec's balls laughed to this when they saw it for the first time.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

To be fair, the only reason that anybody laughed is because it's funny, so you can't really blame them for that.