Declaring pronouns, ethnicity, clothing style and hair colour

[Jarhyn]

Solid Foundations Therapy

For no one in particular.

Are you triggered by my OP?

I can tell he's not, but I'm personally amused at your reaction.

 

[Jarhyn]

Solid Foundations Therapy

For no one in particular.

Are you triggered by my OP?

Oi you sneaky (wonderful person whose parantage is certainly not in question), you beat me to it. You were waiting for it weren't you?

 

[Toni]

I think the point is, I am who I say I am not as you perceive me to be. Which answers question one and could negate question two. If you’d let it.
Some things may be obvious and hard to argue like clothing. Others are more nuanced like who I know myself to be.
How do people react to your “imposing physical presence”? Is it justified? Is this who you are?

My physical presence is there for all to see. I cannot see what positive effect talking about my ethnicity, height, hairstyle, or clothing is supposed to have. In fact, I find the idea totally bizarre.

It isn't there for vision impaired persons.

And....speaking for Americans, I can assure you that in the wake of 9/11, there were all sorts of ethnicities of persons who were mistaken for 'muslim' and therefore guilty...of...being a muslim, I guess. Definitely included at least some Hispanic and Indian and Native American people, the latter of which was deeply, deeply ironic.

 

[Metaphor]

I think the point is, I am who I say I am not as you perceive me to be. Which answers question one and could negate question two. If you’d let it.
Some things may be obvious and hard to argue like clothing. Others are more nuanced like who I know myself to be.
How do people react to your “imposing physical presence”? Is it justified? Is this who you are?

My physical presence is there for all to see. I cannot see what positive effect talking about my ethnicity, height, hairstyle, or clothing is supposed to have. In fact, I find the idea totally bizarre.

It isn't there for vision impaired persons.

So what? Even if I believed that's what the Microsoft people were doing (describing themselves for the vision impaired), what relevance does my race and physical appearance have?

And....speaking for Americans, I can assure you that in the wake of 9/11, there were all sorts of ethnicities of persons who were mistaken for 'muslim' and therefore guilty...of...being a muslim, I guess. Definitely included at least some Hispanic and Indian and Native American people, the latter of which was deeply, deeply ironic.

So....somebody might mistake the race or ethnicity of a speaker? So what?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, I chose my own hairstyle. I chose my jacket. I made my damn stick myself. I chose my hat and the way I want my facial hair. I am in the long and labored process of designing what I will have printed on my own skin.

There are things someone cannot have of certain things. One can only ever have the history they have and some aspects of race imply history. So history becomes important.

When it is your own history, this is the context which it becomes OK to have pride for the things that are good or neutral and seek to stop, going forward, of the things that are not good nor neutral.

And to not claim to have a history one does not.

Of course, this whole thread is a thinly veiled attempt to reflect whatever nonsense is going on in a piece of corporate culture dooky or even far-to-woo culture dooky back across on the academic center on the issue.

All it does, at best, is say "corporate board rooms are tone deaf because they are too terrified someone will interpret their song badly".

 

[Metaphor]

Solid Foundations Therapy

For no one in particular.

Are you triggered by my OP?

Projection. A standard of conservatism.

Yes, it appears you did project when you posted a link to a site about being triggered.

 

[Toni]

I think the point is, I am who I say I am not as you perceive me to be. Which answers question one and could negate question two. If you’d let it.
Some things may be obvious and hard to argue like clothing. Others are more nuanced like who I know myself to be.
How do people react to your “imposing physical presence”? Is it justified? Is this who you are?

My physical presence is there for all to see. I cannot see what positive effect talking about my ethnicity, height, hairstyle, or clothing is supposed to have. In fact, I find the idea totally bizarre.

It isn't there for vision impaired persons.

So what? Even if I believed that's what the Microsoft people were doing (describing themselves for the vision impaired), what relevance does my race and physical appearance have?

And....speaking for Americans, I can assure you that in the wake of 9/11, there were all sorts of ethnicities of persons who were mistaken for 'muslim' and therefore guilty...of...being a muslim, I guess. Definitely included at least some Hispanic and Indian and Native American people, the latter of which was deeply, deeply ironic.

So....somebody might mistake the race or ethnicity of a speaker? So what?

I also don't care but some people might care. And if I were visually impaired, but had been sighted earlier in my life, it might be nice for me to form a visual when listening to a speaker. I have no idea what the topic or the presentations contained but I can imagine some where ethnicity, race, age, gender, etc. might be relevant.

 

[ZiprHead]

Solid Foundations Therapy

For no one in particular.

Are you triggered by my OP?

Projection. A standard of conservatism.

Yes, it appears you did project when you posted a link to a site about being triggered.

Sure, luv.

 

[Jayjay]

If I get to pick my pronouns, I choose "yall" and "youse".

 

[Politesse]

In this Microsoft Ignite video, the host opens with a thirty second acknowledgment of Microsoft's occupation of native land (though noticeably doesn't offer to hand it back). Now, I work in a large organisation, so I'm used to the compulsory prayer and act of contrition section of presentations, so that part didn't surprise me.

But then the host named her job role and followed it up with "I'm an Asian and white female with dark brown hair wearing a red sleeveless top" (I'll note that her hair was not in fact wearing a red sleeveless top).

The next person to speak named his job then followed up with "I'm a tall Hispanic male wearing a blue shirt and khaki pants".

I must say, I can never anticipate where the brave new world of Woke will take us next. Oddly, the video above does not show the speakers declare their pronouns, but the hosts in the 'Into Focus' security video also linked in the same thread do get pronouns in, among other mutable and immutable characteristics:

"I'm a Caucasian woman with long blonde hair and I go by she/her."

After the important information about her race and hair style is out of the way, then we get a job title.

The next speaker is "a Caucasian man with glasses and a beard, I go by he/him". (He then reveals he's a security evangelist).

I have two questions: one, what is going on here? I'm a knuckle-dragging scumbag reactionary so I can't quite understand why your physical appearance is relevant, let alone relevant enough to describe in a diegetic audio description track, when discussing a product.

Two: is this something you think is desirable for corporations to move towards? I've spent my entire life embarrassed and ashamed about my imposing physical presence. It would cause me anxiety to draw extra attention to it.

Almost certainly the physical descriptions are for visually-impaired guests. They aren't required, but in the college system we're encouraged to vocalize visual information. Especially if it is important to understanding educational material in which case it might be required, if not including it would prevent success for a student whose situation is covered by the ADA. But it's polite whether or not it is required, and earns you a bit of goodwill from those to whom it applies. While no such laws exist in the business world, the practical reasons for doing so still exist, and indeed if a business is hoping that a school will pick up one of their promos as an educational tool, something Microsoft is known to encourage, subtitling it, running it by colorblind tests, etc makes it more likely an instructor might pick it up since it will be less work than doing all that themselves.

Your invocation of "Woke" is, as usual, irrelevant to the thing you're complaining about. You don't have to be woke to be polite, or considerate of your audience. Even complete assholes, who deeply miss the good old years of Stalin and Eisenhower and grind their teeth when they think of Antietam, will still design better and more effective business presentations if they consider and cater to their entire likely audience. Even the conservative media is doing Microsoft a favor here by attacking them for being too thoughtful toward their target customers, who are unlikely to see this as a bad thing, turning every outrage segment into free positive PR.

This sort of thing is why socially progessive regions usually do much better in the business realm than conservative backwaters. If you have a choice to do business with someone who respects you as a human being, as opposed to someone who treats you like crap and indeed complains if anyone else treats you decently, most people would choose the person/company who threw them a bone, even if they do suspect it to be cynical trend-jumping. It's still more fun to give your money to people who at least pretend to treat you with respect, than to people who don't.

 

[Metaphor]

In this Microsoft Ignite video, the host opens with a thirty second acknowledgment of Microsoft's occupation of native land (though noticeably doesn't offer to hand it back). Now, I work in a large organisation, so I'm used to the compulsory prayer and act of contrition section of presentations, so that part didn't surprise me.

But then the host named her job role and followed it up with "I'm an Asian and white female with dark brown hair wearing a red sleeveless top" (I'll note that her hair was not in fact wearing a red sleeveless top).

The next person to speak named his job then followed up with "I'm a tall Hispanic male wearing a blue shirt and khaki pants".

I must say, I can never anticipate where the brave new world of Woke will take us next. Oddly, the video above does not show the speakers declare their pronouns, but the hosts in the 'Into Focus' security video also linked in the same thread do get pronouns in, among other mutable and immutable characteristics:

"I'm a Caucasian woman with long blonde hair and I go by she/her."

After the important information about her race and hair style is out of the way, then we get a job title.

The next speaker is "a Caucasian man with glasses and a beard, I go by he/him". (He then reveals he's a security evangelist).

I have two questions: one, what is going on here? I'm a knuckle-dragging scumbag reactionary so I can't quite understand why your physical appearance is relevant, let alone relevant enough to describe in a diegetic audio description track, when discussing a product.

Two: is this something you think is desirable for corporations to move towards? I've spent my entire life embarrassed and ashamed about my imposing physical presence. It would cause me anxiety to draw extra attention to it.

Almost certainly the physical descriptions are for visually-impaired guests. They aren't required, but in the college system we're encouraged to vocalize visual information. Especially if it is important to understanding educational material in which case it might be required, if not including it would prevent success for a student whose situation is covered by the ADA. But it's polite whether or not it is required, and earns you a bit of goodwill from those to whom it applies.

I have never witnessed such a thing in my entire life. This seems brand new to me. Is this happening at American universities? I mean, this specific thing - speakers describing their race and physical fclothing

Your invocation of "Woke" is, as usual, irrelevant to the thing you're complaining about. You don't have to be woke to be polite, or considerate of your audience.

But this puts the cart before the horse. How is verbally describing irrelevant information being polite and considerate?

Even complete assholes, who deeply miss the good old years of Stalin and Eisenhower and grind their teeth when they think of Antietam, will still design better and more effective business presentations if they consider and cater to their entire likely audience. Even the conservative media is doing Microsoft a favor here by attacking them for being too thoughtful toward their target customers, who are unlikely to see this as a bad thing, turning every outrage segment into free positive PR.

It seems to me that the only additional customers that may benefit from this language are people who were once sighted and are now blind; people who have a reference point for what a 'red' top is or even what a 'white and Asian' female looks like. But even then, I do not understand the inclusion of the irrelevant information. I can understand saying 'this product comes in red, black, and grey, because that is relevant information about a product. But I do not understand why the colour of the presenters skin is relevant.

This sort of thing is why socially progessive regions usually do much better in the business realm than conservative backwaters. If you have a choice to do business with someone who respects you as a human being, as opposed to someone who treats you like crap and indeed complains if anyone else treats you decently, most people would choose the person/company who threw them a bone, even if they do suspect it to be cynical trend-jumping. It's still more fun to give your money to people who at least pretend to treat you with respect, than to people who don't.

But Microsoft isn't respecting their employees. They are demanding that their employees (the customer-facing ones, at any rate) vocalise information about themselves that perhaps they do not want to vocalise, and that is in any case irrelevant to the product.

 

[Bomb#20]

If I get to pick my pronouns, I choose "yall" and "youse".

You don't get to pick your pronouns. Your pronouns are "y'all" and "yous"! Deal with it!

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Trans-woman, here.

People either get my pronouns right or not. If they do, then I kind of like that. If they don't, then they kind of annoy me.

The world does not have to crucify everybody that annoys me. In fact, I happen to be close friends with many people that do a variety of things that annoy me. My husband does things that annoy me, and he does them every day. The most annoying thing he does is to tell me that I should clean my office. I tell him that he can get his own office, and when he has gotten his own office, then he can keep it as tidy as he likes. Nevertheless, he persists. I would prefer if he did not do these kinds of annoying things, but we have had certain arguments so many times that they have become predictable and boring.

However, I do kind of like it when people get my pronouns right, and I do not consider myself to be obligated to enjoy being misgendered.

I have never regarded this subject as a complicated one.

 

[Patooka]

I was in a Starbuck's today and got a grande Irish Cream cold brew, which was amazing, and noticed that my barista (who had, um, boobs, and appeared to be a woman) had a name tag that said "pronouns He/Him/His."
The POINT of this encounter being, of course, that I got a grande Irish Cream cold brew, which was amazing.

Somehow, I was even able to drive home, concentrate enough to play some guitar, and watch some football, and I strongly suspect I'll be able to go to sleep tonight.

What's the point of your story?

Pretty certain if it was explained to you, you still wouldn't understand. You've clearly chosen this to be a hill to die on.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trans-woman, here.

People either get my pronouns right or not. If they do, then I kind of like that. If they don't, then they kind of annoy me.

The world does not have to crucify everybody that annoys me. In fact, I happen to be close friends with many people that do a variety of things that annoy me. My husband does things that annoy me, and he does them every day. The most annoying thing he does is to tell me that I should clean my office. I tell him that he can get his own office, and when he has gotten his own office, then he can keep it as tidy as he likes. Nevertheless, he persists. I would prefer if he did not do these kinds of annoying things, but we have had certain arguments so many times that they have become predictable and boring.

However, I do kind of like it when people get my pronouns right, and I do not consider myself to be obligated to enjoy being misgendered.

I have never regarded this subject as a complicated one.

Welcome to the board, Sigma.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Trans-woman, here.

People either get my pronouns right or not. If they do, then I kind of like that. If they don't, then they kind of annoy me.

The world does not have to crucify everybody that annoys me. In fact, I happen to be close friends with many people that do a variety of things that annoy me. My husband does things that annoy me, and he does them every day. The most annoying thing he does is to tell me that I should clean my office. I tell him that he can get his own office, and when he has gotten his own office, then he can keep it as tidy as he likes. Nevertheless, he persists. I would prefer if he did not do these kinds of annoying things, but we have had certain arguments so many times that they have become predictable and boring.

However, I do kind of like it when people get my pronouns right, and I do not consider myself to be obligated to enjoy being misgendered.

I have never regarded this subject as a complicated one.

Welcome to the board, Sigma.

Thank you. I forget the last name I used, here. That was about 15 years ago, and I am not even sure I still have the email I used for it. It was one of those mail dot com accounts, I think.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Trans-woman, here.

People either get my pronouns right or not. If they do, then I kind of like that. If they don't, then they kind of annoy me.

The world does not have to crucify everybody that annoys me. In fact, I happen to be close friends with many people that do a variety of things that annoy me. My husband does things that annoy me, and he does them every day. The most annoying thing he does is to tell me that I should clean my office. I tell him that he can get his own office, and when he has gotten his own office, then he can keep it as tidy as he likes. Nevertheless, he persists. I would prefer if he did not do these kinds of annoying things, but we have had certain arguments so many times that they have become predictable and boring.

However, I do kind of like it when people get my pronouns right, and I do not consider myself to be obligated to enjoy being misgendered.

I have never regarded this subject as a complicated one.

Agreed. This is not complicated. This is not fucking hard to grasp. Don't be an asshole. Call people (even those whom you disagree with) the correct pronoun. Give respect, and maybe you'll get it back.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trans-woman, here.

People either get my pronouns right or not. If they do, then I kind of like that. If they don't, then they kind of annoy me.

The world does not have to crucify everybody that annoys me. In fact, I happen to be close friends with many people that do a variety of things that annoy me. My husband does things that annoy me, and he does them every day. The most annoying thing he does is to tell me that I should clean my office. I tell him that he can get his own office, and when he has gotten his own office, then he can keep it as tidy as he likes. Nevertheless, he persists. I would prefer if he did not do these kinds of annoying things, but we have had certain arguments so many times that they have become predictable and boring.

However, I do kind of like it when people get my pronouns right, and I do not consider myself to be obligated to enjoy being misgendered.

I have never regarded this subject as a complicated one.

Agreed. This is not complicated. This is not fucking hard to grasp. Don't be an asshole. Call people (even those whom you disagree with) the correct pronoun. Give respect, and maybe you'll get it back.

Metaphor thinks it's quite difficult.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Trans-woman, here.

People either get my pronouns right or not. If they do, then I kind of like that. If they don't, then they kind of annoy me.

The world does not have to crucify everybody that annoys me. In fact, I happen to be close friends with many people that do a variety of things that annoy me. My husband does things that annoy me, and he does them every day. The most annoying thing he does is to tell me that I should clean my office. I tell him that he can get his own office, and when he has gotten his own office, then he can keep it as tidy as he likes. Nevertheless, he persists. I would prefer if he did not do these kinds of annoying things, but we have had certain arguments so many times that they have become predictable and boring.

However, I do kind of like it when people get my pronouns right, and I do not consider myself to be obligated to enjoy being misgendered.

I have never regarded this subject as a complicated one.

Agreed. This is not complicated. This is not fucking hard to grasp. Don't be an asshole. Call people (even those whom you disagree with) the correct pronoun. Give respect, and maybe you'll get it back.

Metaphor thinks it's quite difficult.

If I murdered every person that ever irritated me, then the human race would go extinct.

 

[Metaphor]

Trans-woman, here.

People either get my pronouns right or not. If they do, then I kind of like that. If they don't, then they kind of annoy me.

The world does not have to crucify everybody that annoys me. In fact, I happen to be close friends with many people that do a variety of things that annoy me. My husband does things that annoy me, and he does them every day. The most annoying thing he does is to tell me that I should clean my office. I tell him that he can get his own office, and when he has gotten his own office, then he can keep it as tidy as he likes. Nevertheless, he persists. I would prefer if he did not do these kinds of annoying things, but we have had certain arguments so many times that they have become predictable and boring.

However, I do kind of like it when people get my pronouns right, and I do not consider myself to be obligated to enjoy being misgendered.

I have never regarded this subject as a complicated one.

Agreed. This is not complicated. This is not fucking hard to grasp. Don't be an asshole. Call people (even those whom you disagree with) the correct pronoun. Give respect, and maybe you'll get it back.

Metaphor thinks it's quite difficult.

It would be less difficult if it were justified. Pronouns for animals are based on sex, and although sometimes non-trans people get mis-sexed by pronoun usage, it is quite rare. When trans ideologists say people are 'misgendering' trans people, they mean people are using the pronoun that corresponds to the person's sex rather than their gender identity. This happens because people are used to using pronouns for sex rather than gender identity, and unfortunately for many trans people, they simply do not pass as the other sex.

But, even though I have engaged in polite fictions for trans people who want me to use a pronoun that does not match their sex, I am not willing to engage in the vast array of neopronouns that people are demanding, and I suspect the "I'm not an asshole" crowd on here would not do it either.