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Define God Thread

God: naturally arising conscious entity that rules the imagination (heavens) in the brain, which uses us to keep "its" brain alive so that it can continually enjoy the fruits of controlling an immensely powerful brain.

human: stupid slave of brain's God, who might or might not be aware that they have a "brain God". Brain Gods have to keep the humans reasonably happy, unless humans are so stupid (fools) or traitorous to their own kind (Catholics) that they remove the means to easy suicide because they are unaware that they are slaves to Gods that care not for their suffering, and are willing to prolong human suffering in order to preserve their (Gods) own pleasure, with the excuse that the "brain Gods" have worked hard to create a bit of comfort in a universe of pain (despite the fact that they jump in after billions of years of natural evolution and claim "I created this").


If people are aware that their brains support Gods within, and they suffer greatly through their life, and have no easy recourse to shut down their suffering, brain Gods are evil, for they have put their own joy ahead of the suffering of those who must care for the bodies that support the brain.
 
Meaning is immaterial; it's not tangible. It's not something we can reach out and touch, so it's very much unlike a table, ball, or tree. Like meaning, so too is a definition immaterial, yet there is a distinction between them. Definitions are explanations, and meaning is what's being explained.

A word does have meaning. Yes, yes, I hear the old "no meaning in and of itself" bit, but when we grasp for understanding, what we should comprehend is that it's a truth inherent in how we speak. The real deal is that words denote meaning. They stand in place of meaning. We use words as our tools of communication to convey what we mean when we speak. When I say a goose crossed the road, I'm using the word, "goose" to convey what I mean, but I wouldn't if it did not help to convey what I meant. I use that word because it denotes the very meaning as commonly and fluently used by many speakers of the language.

It is through usage of words that they come to have meaning. The observation (if ya like) that they don't have meaning in and of themselves does not detract from the notion that they most assuredly do have meaning, in the sense the words are used to denote the meaning often collectively expressed by fluent speakers. Announcing that a particular word in another time has a different meaning does not demonstrate that words don't have meaning.

Explanations are plentiful, and perhaps sadly, they do not always match what the greater authoritative sources have arrived at.
 
Meaning is immaterial; it's not tangible. It's not something we can reach out and touch, so it's very much unlike a table, ball, or tree.
Meaning may or may not be immaterial, we just don't know, just as we don't know whether our mind is or isn't material. Just as we don't know whether there is anything material at all.

But meaning is definitely tangible. It is definitely "clearly grasped by the mind" (Collins). It is "clearly intelligible" (Oxford). You should look up dictionaries more often. You'd see how your use of words is far from perfect.

And trees and tables are definitely constructs of the mind. What there is in reality beyond the mental representations we call 'trees' and 'tables' is anybody's guess. Don't pretend you know. It doesn't wash we me.

Like meaning, so too is a definition immaterial, yet there is a distinction between them. Definitions are explanations, and meaning is what's being explained.
Not explanations. Just statements of meaning. We can use definitions to explain what we mean to someone who doesn't understand how we use of a particular word, but that doesn't make definitions 'explanations'.

All these constant disagreements we have about what we mean by certain words may seem subtle and unimportant but that would be a mistake. Our disagreements are indicative that there is no meaning in the world out there. It's all inside our minds.

Words are said to have meaning much like goods are said to have value. Meaning changes like value changes according to how people use words and goods. And different groups of people assign different meaning and values according to their own custom. /metaphor

A word does have meaning. Yes, yes, I hear the old "no meaning in and of itself" bit, but when we grasp for understanding, what we should comprehend is that it's a truth inherent in how we speak. The real deal is that words denote meaning. They stand in place of meaning. We use words as our tools of communication to convey what we mean when we speak. When I say a goose crossed the road, I'm using the word, "goose" to convey what I mean, but I wouldn't if it did not help to convey what I meant. I use that word because it denotes the very meaning as commonly and fluently used by many speakers of the language.
Words are conventions. They cannot be properly said to have meaning. It's a profoundly misleading expression.

Words are somewhat like buses. You take a bus to go from Marble Arch to Paddington. It doesn't mean that the bus you're in couldn't just as effectively be used on an Earl Court - Mayfair route. And people don't necessarily take this bus to go to Paddington either. They can stop before or after Paddington because their own destination is not Paddington at all. Just because we're on the same bus doesn't mean we have the same destination. /metaphor

Each speaker uses words to convey what he or she means. They will certainly believe they are using these words properly, according to usage, but the reality is that they have no way of checking that this is true. At best, they will use words according to the usage of the community of speech they happen to belong.

And then there is no entirely homogenous speech community either. Language is a chaotic reality. You just want to believe in a simplistic representation of the complex world out there.

It is through usage of words that they come to have meaning. The observation (if ya like) that they don't have meaning in and of themselves does not detract from the notion that they most assuredly do have meaning, in the sense the words are used to denote the meaning often collectively expressed by fluent speakers. Announcing that a particular word in another time has a different meaning does not demonstrate that words don't have meaning.
Collective usage is a convenient fiction. It is as much "all in our mind" as meanings are.

It is a social fact that usage is multiple because it is rooted in speech communities that are largely segregated from each other. What a speaker means by words is a consequence of the words he or she uses to express their meanings and this in turn is mostly determined by which speech community they belong to.

It is unrealistic to ignore that usage is inherently multipartite and partitioned. You want to keep up the fiction that there is a 'proper' usage, which would be unique as determined by the self-appointed community 'fluent' speakers, to which you probably think you belong. But no fluent speaker could possibly keep up with the pretence because there are simply too many words and usage is moving too fast. Your own use of words is often defective in this respect, as I have shown you on several occasions. It is also easy to detect non-standard uses by so-called fluent speakers. And there is a generational effect, whereby the old generation of these so-called 'fluent speakers' at some point suddenly begin to sound old-fashioned, fussy and irrelevant, and are replaced by a new generation of would-be fluent speaker.

This is also a politically significant fiction. The reality is that most human beings are fluent speakers relatively to the speech community they belong to. If you don't believe me, I'd like you to visit multicultural areas in Britain or segregated areas in the U.S., and try to explain to the people there that their use of words is not 'fluent'. Bring in a bodyguard with you, though.

Explanations are plentiful, and perhaps sadly, they do not always match what the greater authoritative sources have arrived at.
You definitely like conveniently vague formulations.

Look up any dictionary of the past century and you will see how authoritative they were. They will inevitably appear truly pathetic from our ever privileged ventage point.
EB
 
Then we're back to where we started. What's the point of this definition? How does this God work? What is it for? Why define it this way?

I think it's a useless definition. It doesn't help us understand anything. As usual it's the theistic wet blanket they throw on any intelligent question on the matter to obfuscate the fact that they have no clue.

What's the texture of its skin, if it has skin? What colors does it give off? What sounds does it make? How does it move? How does it breathe? Does it have limbs? Does it have eyes, ears, teeth...? What does it eat? How big is it?

None of these questions will ever have a theistic answer because god is just an emotion, feelings that give way to thoughts. Some of those feelings are pretty good and some are vile, and such is the theistic god.

If the function of God is to evoke emotions, then put that in the definition.
 
What's the texture of its skin, if it has skin? What colors does it give off? What sounds does it make? How does it move? How does it breathe? Does it have limbs? Does it have eyes, ears, teeth...? What does it eat? How big is it?

None of these questions will ever have a theistic answer because god is just an emotion, feelings that give way to thoughts. Some of those feelings are pretty good and some are vile, and such is the theistic god.

If the function of God is to evoke emotions, then put that in the definition.
It's the other way around. Emotions are what create gods.
 
If the function of God is to evoke emotions, then put that in the definition.
It's the other way around. Emotions are what create gods.

Hang on. No. We're saying the same thing. Emotions create gods. I am agreeing that humans have created all gods. So when we define the god then the emotion evoked should go into the definition.

I'm not talking about Gods in a physical or natural (or supernatural) sense. I'm talking about gods in purely functional terms. Ie, what use they are to humans. What function, in our lives they fill.

Here's a common thing I've heard from theists, "life without god would be meaningless". Ok, great. Put that in the definition. A god like that has a function without really existing. The idea of the god is in itself functional.
 
It's the other way around. Emotions are what create gods.

Hang on. No. We're saying the same thing. Emotions create gods. I am agreeing that humans have created all gods. So when we define the god then the emotion evoked should go into the definition.

I'm not talking about Gods in a physical or natural (or supernatural) sense. I'm talking about gods in purely functional terms. Ie, what use they are to humans. What function, in our lives they fill.

Here's a common thing I've heard from theists, "life without god would be meaningless". Ok, great. Put that in the definition. A god like that has a function without really existing. The idea of the god is in itself functional.


Then you are really talking not about God but about the idea of God.

Sure, the idea of God can be understood as having its origin as a functional, emotional, mechanism of our mind. Not God. Not God as believers take the word "God" to mean.

So why not say "the idea of God"? Why choose a confused expression?

This is so typical on hardcore materialists who will forever highjack meaningful words, redefining them to serve their own ends. So pathetic!

You behave like the Stasi of ideas! Scientists did that with "consciousness". It would be irrational if it wasn't ideologically motivated. Big Brother would be proud of you. Congratulations.
EB
 
I'm wrestling with the notion of a convenient fiction.

The novice with an eagerness to learn ultimately lessens the divergence between his accepted truths with that of an expert, but if these accepted truths are merely but convenient fictions, then Houston, we have a problem. What sense are we to make of the world if nearly every commonly held belief is turned topsey tervey? All of a sudden, it shouldn't be regarded as true that a noun is a person, place, or thing because it was made up? Is the standard model of particle physics a convenient fiction lying in wait of later transformation?

The amateur philosopher who peers through the philosophical danger zone ill-equipped should not antagonize the notion that these so-called fictions are on comparable ground with typical common sense falsehoods. How is the novice ever to know that words have meaning just as experts know that words have meaning if a so-called philosophical yet amateurish observation reveals that it's all a fiction?

It's apart of language that many truths are true. We are not supposed to let underlying notions of truth get in the way of that. That any model was made in good faith and continues to be our best reflection of the truth is not to be held in the same esteem as a blatent false claim.
 
I'm wrestling with the notion of a convenient fiction.

The novice with an eagerness to learn ultimately lessens the divergence between his accepted truths with that of an expert, but if these accepted truths are merely but convenient fictions, then Houston, we have a problem. What sense are we to make of the world if nearly every commonly held belief is turned topsey tervey? All of a sudden, it shouldn't be regarded as true that a noun is a person, place, or thing because it was made up? Is the standard model of particle physics a convenient fiction lying in wait of later transformation?

The amateur philosopher who peers through the philosophical danger zone ill-equipped should not antagonize the notion that these so-called fictions are on comparable ground with typical common sense falsehoods. How is the novice ever to know that words have meaning just as experts know that words have meaning if a so-called philosophical yet amateurish observation reveals that it's all a fiction?

It's apart of language that many truths are true. We are not supposed to let underlying notions of truth get in the way of that. That any model was made in good faith and continues to be our best reflection of the truth is not to be held in the same esteem as a blatent false claim.
it is still a fiction. albeit a useful one.
 
Hang on. No. We're saying the same thing. Emotions create gods. I am agreeing that humans have created all gods. So when we define the god then the emotion evoked should go into the definition.

I'm not talking about Gods in a physical or natural (or supernatural) sense. I'm talking about gods in purely functional terms. Ie, what use they are to humans. What function, in our lives they fill.

Here's a common thing I've heard from theists, "life without god would be meaningless". Ok, great. Put that in the definition. A god like that has a function without really existing. The idea of the god is in itself functional.

Then you are really talking not about God but about the idea of God.

Sure, the idea of God can be understood as having its origin as a functional, emotional, mechanism of our mind. Not God. Not God as believers take the word "God" to mean.

So why not say "the idea of God"? Why choose a confused expression?

This is so typical on hardcore materialists who will forever highjack meaningful words, redefining them to serve their own ends. So pathetic!

You behave like the Stasi of ideas! Scientists did that with "consciousness". It would be irrational if it wasn't ideologically motivated. Big Brother would be proud of you. Congratulations.
EB

Are you sure I'm not as bad as Hitler?

I'm just trying to pin down what god is, ie define God. I want to eliminate vagaries and woo from the definition. Since the supernatural is woo, ie bullshit, that only leaves how gods affect us.

Look, we created gods. If we can answer the question as to why we created them, we'll have an answer to what the gods are for and thereby have defined them. Of all approaches, this is the one I think is the most straight forward.

All the definitions you've managed to come up with are all nonsense. What's the point of having a nonsense definition of anything?
 
I'm wrestling with the notion of a convenient fiction.

The novice with an eagerness to learn ultimately lessens the divergence between his accepted truths with that of an expert, but if these accepted truths are merely but convenient fictions, then Houston, we have a problem. What sense are we to make of the world if nearly every commonly held belief is turned topsey tervey? All of a sudden, it shouldn't be regarded as true that a noun is a person, place, or thing because it was made up? Is the standard model of particle physics a convenient fiction lying in wait of later transformation?

The amateur philosopher who peers through the philosophical danger zone ill-equipped should not antagonize the notion that these so-called fictions are on comparable ground with typical common sense falsehoods. How is the novice ever to know that words have meaning just as experts know that words have meaning if a so-called philosophical yet amateurish observation reveals that it's all a fiction?

It's apart of language that many truths are true. We are not supposed to let underlying notions of truth get in the way of that. That any model was made in good faith and continues to be our best reflection of the truth is not to be held in the same esteem as a blatent false claim.

It seems rather ironic that you should seem to shy away from the truth in the name of the truth?!

I certainly don't have that problem.

And, since when do we have to stop trying to understand our situation just because it's going to be too hard for the "novice"?! Do you think we should have refrained from Quantum Physics on the ground that nobody really understands it?

Our position in the world is difficult to understand but nobody is actually forced to consider the more complex and subtle options. Each of us is free to opt to live the life of a useless idiot.
EB
 
Then you are really talking not about God but about the idea of God.

Sure, the idea of God can be understood as having its origin as a functional, emotional, mechanism of our mind. Not God. Not God as believers take the word "God" to mean.

So why not say "the idea of God"? Why choose a confused expression?

This is so typical on hardcore materialists who will forever highjack meaningful words, redefining them to serve their own ends. So pathetic!

You behave like the Stasi of ideas! Scientists did that with "consciousness". It would be irrational if it wasn't ideologically motivated. Big Brother would be proud of you. Congratulations.
EB

Are you sure I'm not as bad as Hitler?

I'm just trying to pin down what god is, ie define God. I want to eliminate vagaries and woo from the definition. Since the supernatural is woo, ie bullshit, that only leaves how gods affect us.

Look, we created gods. If we can answer the question as to why we created them, we'll have an answer to what the gods are for and thereby have defined them. Of all approaches, this is the one I think is the most straight forward.

I'm not motivated to discuss opinions.

And yours is a derail.

All the definitions you've managed to come up with are all nonsense. What's the point of having a nonsense definition of anything?

You should try logical arguments.
EB
 
I'm wrestling with the notion of a convenient fiction.

The novice with an eagerness to learn ultimately lessens the divergence between his accepted truths with that of an expert, but if these accepted truths are merely but convenient fictions, then Houston, we have a problem. What sense are we to make of the world if nearly every commonly held belief is turned topsey tervey? All of a sudden, it shouldn't be regarded as true that a noun is a person, place, or thing because it was made up? Is the standard model of particle physics a convenient fiction lying in wait of later transformation?

The amateur philosopher who peers through the philosophical danger zone ill-equipped should not antagonize the notion that these so-called fictions are on comparable ground with typical common sense falsehoods. How is the novice ever to know that words have meaning just as experts know that words have meaning if a so-called philosophical yet amateurish observation reveals that it's all a fiction?

It's apart of language that many truths are true. We are not supposed to let underlying notions of truth get in the way of that. That any model was made in good faith and continues to be our best reflection of the truth is not to be held in the same esteem as a blatent false claim.
it is still a fiction. albeit a useful one.
Perhaps then we've arrived at the best answer, that gods are useful fictions. For those of us who find it difficult to not have satisfying answers, they're models which let us accept given aspects of reality without actual understanding or explanation.
 
El-o-Hym = ολω-Human = All-Human = No ego
"Human" is used here in the sense of "Logical"
as opposed to "Animals" which are illogical.

El = ολως = All = Infinity

Logos means "worder" which means "human" (since animals dont speak).
The Logos of God is infinitely Logical (having no ego) and hence an All-Human or El-o-Hym.

John 1:
In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with All-Human, and the Logos was All-Human;
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=human&allowed_in_frame=0

human (adj.)
mid-15c., humain, humaigne, "human," from Old French humain, umain (adj.) "of or belonging to man" (12c.), from Latin humanus "of man, human," also "humane, philanthropic, kind, gentle, polite; learned, refined, civilized."

This is in part from PIE *(dh)ghomon-, literally "earthling, earthly being," as opposed to the gods (from root *dhghem- "earth"), but there is no settled explanation of the sound changes involved.

Compare Hebrew adam "man," from adamah "ground." Cognate with Old Lithuanian žmuo (accusative žmuni) "man, male person." 


A person with no ego would not require sleep.
A crucified person stood on a small platform with their arms stretched outward horizontally.
As long as they were awake they could support their weight on their feet but as soon as they fell asleep all of their weight went on to their arms causing intense pain which would wake them back up. 

No I am not an All-Human.
I definitely require sleep.
 
I'm wrestling with the notion of a convenient fiction.

The novice with an eagerness to learn ultimately lessens the divergence between his accepted truths with that of an expert, but if these accepted truths are merely but convenient fictions, then Houston, we have a problem. What sense are we to make of the world if nearly every commonly held belief is turned topsey tervey? All of a sudden, it shouldn't be regarded as true that a noun is a person, place, or thing because it was made up? Is the standard model of particle physics a convenient fiction lying in wait of later transformation?

The amateur philosopher who peers through the philosophical danger zone ill-equipped should not antagonize the notion that these so-called fictions are on comparable ground with typical common sense falsehoods. How is the novice ever to know that words have meaning just as experts know that words have meaning if a so-called philosophical yet amateurish observation reveals that it's all a fiction?

It's apart of language that many truths are true. We are not supposed to let underlying notions of truth get in the way of that. That any model was made in good faith and continues to be our best reflection of the truth is not to be held in the same esteem as a blatent false claim.
it is still a fiction. albeit a useful one.
If it is, then it is, and if it isn't, then it isn't. I take no position on the matter (yet), but I'm taking the position that words have meaning either way--not to be interpreted as them having meaning in and of themselves. I turn to a different example to expedite understanding.

If we have created fictions, and if the notion (for example) that a noun is a person, place, or thing is itself a fiction, then okay, so be it, it's a fiction, and in face of such a truth, with no intent on denying such a truth, if it is in fact a truth, then I would still be inclined to say, "yes" (not no) when asked if a noun is a person, place, or thing, but not to mislead, I mind you, but for a much greater reason. The truth in this case would be a function to its correspondence to the best model of reality.

When asked to describe the events in a movie, we do not deny every assertion at every corner with the same ole lame nugget of truth that whatever seemed to happen didn't because it's just a movie. We deny that Rudolph's nose is blue, as we should, but denying that it's Red is far more problematic. When he denies that words have meaning, he is just saying that in reality, words don't have meaning in and if themselves, but language is meant to be spoken such that you don't have to go around qualifying what you mean and don't mean when saying that a noun is a person, place, or thing. It seems rather odd to deny that words have meaning just as it would be to seriously deny that a noun is a person, place, or thing.
 
Then you are really talking not about God but about the idea of God.

Sure, the idea of God can be understood as having its origin as a functional, emotional, mechanism of our mind. Not God. Not God as believers take the word "God" to mean.

So why not say "the idea of God"? Why choose a confused expression?

This is so typical on hardcore materialists who will forever highjack meaningful words, redefining them to serve their own ends. So pathetic!

You behave like the Stasi of ideas! Scientists did that with "consciousness". It would be irrational if it wasn't ideologically motivated. Big Brother would be proud of you. Congratulations.
EB

Are you sure I'm not as bad as Hitler?

I didn't say "Hitler". I said the Stasi.

I see a clear distinction between the mindset of people like Hitler and what I see as the totalitarian mindset.

I experienced the totalitarian mindset discussing the political situation in France following May 1968 up until 1975. I had conversations with Trotskyites and Communistes most of them friends, or friends from friends. What matters to assess the totalitarian mindset is not what these people do or could get to do if they had political power but how they argue. I found that totalitarian people can always reinterpret facts to suit their political views. They never stop to think about the import or significance of facts. They just flatly deny their significance. The criterion to detect the totalitarian mindset is that it can't be wrong: it is unfalsifiable. Totalitarian ideas are of course falsifiable in practice but a totalitarian mindset will allow you to rephrase the problem to always have the last word. And when a totalitarian regime is put in place, totalitarian ideas will be shown to be wrong, but it will be also too late to complain.

Many people do it on this forum. Fromderinside is one good example. Rather than think about the phenomenon of consciousness, as subjective experience, he flatly denies its import, essentially by claiming it's an illusion. Well, the argument from illusion certainly guaranties you'll have the last word in any debate whatsoever. It's unfalsifiable. It's totalitarian. Most hardcore materialists seem to have a totalitarian mindset.

You do it as well, using a variant form. You deem "bullshit" the use of the word 'God' to refer to something real. You seem to think this is good enough to justify your use of the word 'God' as referring not to anything like God but to the idea of God. Just like that. This is obviously logically incoherent but you seem to like it this way. This also makes any conversation, let alone debate, impossible with people who take the word 'God' to refer to what they think of as God. People like me and all sensible people for that matter.

Totalitarians are also immune to explanations. They're not interested in explanations that won't fit into their worldview. So talking to them is bound to be a waste of time. We had a logical argument at some point. I provided an argument. You just ignored it and now you claim you proved my definition to be "nonsense". But it's easy to go through our posts and see for yourself.
EB
 
Are you sure I'm not as bad as Hitler?

I didn't say "Hitler". I said the Stasi.

I see a clear distinction between the mindset of people like Hitler and what I see as the totalitarian mindset.

I experienced the totalitarian mindset discussing the political situation in France following May 1968 up until 1975. I had conversations with Trotskyites and Communistes most of them friends, or friends from friends. What matters to assess the totalitarian mindset is not what these people do or could get to do if they had political power but how they argue. I found that totalitarian people can always reinterpret facts to suit their political views. They never stop to think about the import or significance of facts. They just flatly deny their significance. The criterion to detect the totalitarian mindset is that it can't be wrong: it is unfalsifiable. Totalitarian ideas are of course falsifiable in practice but a totalitarian mindset will allow you to rephrase the problem to always have the last word. And when a totalitarian regime is put in place, totalitarian ideas will be shown to be wrong, but it will be also too late to complain.

Many people do it on this forum. Fromderinside is one good example. Rather than think about the phenomenon of consciousness, as subjective experience, he flatly denies its import, essentially by claiming it's an illusion. Well, the argument from illusion certainly guaranties you'll have the last word in any debate whatsoever. It's unfalsifiable. It's totalitarian. Most hardcore materialists seem to have a totalitarian mindset.

You do it as well, using a variant form. You deem "bullshit" the use of the word 'God' to refer to something real. You seem to think this is good enough to justify your use of the word 'God' as referring not to anything like God but to the idea of God. Just like that. This is obviously logically incoherent but you seem to like it this way. This also makes any conversation, let alone debate, impossible with people who take the word 'God' to refer to what they think of as God. People like me and all sensible people for that matter.

Totalitarians are also immune to explanations. They're not interested in explanations that won't fit into their worldview. So talking to them is bound to be a waste of time. We had a logical argument at some point. I provided an argument. You just ignored it and now you claim you proved my definition to be "nonsense". But it's easy to go through our posts and see for yourself.
EB

So far, in all of human history, discussions about the the nature of the supernatural has been nothing but piling vague words on each other. At this point I think it's safe to say that it's a dead end. Regardless if the gods really exist or not, we have nothing to say about them. Which is a requirement if we're to define them. Do you disagree with any of this?

What makes the discussion bullshit or not is not the existence or not of the gods, but the language used to discuss it.

But where ever we find a god, we always find a human who worships it. Now that's something concrete we can measure and talk about in non-vague language. This would be true regardless if God really exists or not.

I'm just stating facts. What I think is obvious facts. I too think it's important to be able to falsify statements. But you've yet to prove that you think so as well.
 
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