Defunding the Police?

[Worldtraveller]

In Oregon, police officers are required to have 8 hours in continuous training which may be either fire arms or self defense.

https://www.apexofficer.com/police-training-requirements

Secondly, of course cops cover each other. They are human. People in like professions cover for each other all the time.

I live in Oregon. The training is window dressing. Portland police utterly failed a review by the dept of Justice under Obama. They didn't end up having to fix it because trump.

You know what's funny here? Harry's defense of people in like professions defending each other. I can only really speak to my field (aviation engineering), but it's the exact fucking opposite of this behavior. Like police, the public safety is a big part of this job. If I find anything that looks sketchy, I assume simple human error initially, but if the engineer or mechanic insists that something is fine and it isn't, the fucking FAA is on speed dial and I will ground an airframe and stop an entire fucking shop from working within 5 minutes.

I shut down an entire production line for 3 days once at a major OEM aircraft manufacturing facility to make sure a part that we discovered had some issues was safe. I've also told the customer (who happened to be the USAF) to fuck off, that we weren't going to "fix" something that wasn't broken, and was an indication that they were flying the aircraft beyond it's design limits. So yeah, cops would make lousy fuckin' engineers.

 

[Harry Bosch]

In Oregon, police officers are required to have 8 hours in continuous training which may be either fire arms or self defense.

https://www.apexofficer.com/police-training-requirements

Secondly, of course cops cover each other. They are human. People in like professions cover for each other all the time.

I live in Oregon. The training is window dressing. Portland police utterly failed a review by the dept of Justice under Obama. They didn't end up having to fix it because trump.

You know what's funny here? Harry's defense of people in like professions defending each other. I can only really speak to my field (aviation engineering), but it's the exact fucking opposite of this behavior. Like police, the public safety is a big part of this job. If I find anything that looks sketchy, I assume simple human error initially, but if the engineer or mechanic insists that something is fine and it isn't, the fucking FAA is on speed dial and I will ground an airframe and stop an entire fucking shop from working within 5 minutes.

I shut down an entire production line for 3 days once at a major OEM aircraft manufacturing facility to make sure a part that we discovered had some issues was safe. I've also told the customer (who happened to be the USAF) to fuck off, that we weren't going to "fix" something that wasn't broken, and was an indication that they were flying the aircraft beyond it's design limits. So yeah, cops would make lousy fuckin' engineers.

I see people covering for their partners all the time. You work in aviation? You've never heard of air traffic controllers and pilots covering for each other? Happens all the time. I was an air traffic controller. Every word that is said by a controller or a pilot is recorded. It's also a huge problem in medicine. Doctors cover for other doctors, nurses, specialists and etc.

You guys are trying to create a narrative that police are uniquely evil and special. Where's the evidence of this? Where's your link? The police are just like you and I. There are some bad ones in the group. Sure they tend to be more blue collar and dogmatically suspicious. They aren't paid a lot. And they mostly hang out with bad people all day.

 

[thebeave]

You know what's funny here? Harry's defense of people in like professions defending each other. I can only really speak to my field (aviation engineering), but it's the exact fucking opposite of this behavior. Like police, the public safety is a big part of this job. If I find anything that looks sketchy, I assume simple human error initially, but if the engineer or mechanic insists that something is fine and it isn't, the fucking FAA is on speed dial and I will ground an airframe and stop an entire fucking shop from working within 5 minutes.

I shut down an entire production line for 3 days once at a major OEM aircraft manufacturing facility to make sure a part that we discovered had some issues was safe. I've also told the customer (who happened to be the USAF) to fuck off, that we weren't going to "fix" something that wasn't broken, and was an indication that they were flying the aircraft beyond it's design limits. So yeah, cops would make lousy fuckin' engineers.

I see people covering for their partners all the time. You work in aviation? You've never heard of air traffic controllers and pilots covering for each other? Happens all the time. I was an air traffic controller. Every word that is said by a controller or a pilot is recorded. It's also a huge problem in medicine. Doctors cover for other doctors, nurses, specialists and etc.

You guys are trying to create a narrative that police are uniquely evil and special. Where's the evidence of this? Where's your link? The police are just like you and I. There are some bad ones in the group. Sure they tend to be more blue collar and dogmatically suspicious. They aren't paid a lot. And they mostly hang out with bad people all day.

Yup. They are using a broad brush to tarnish an entire group based on the actions of a few bad apples. Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, I remember now... its how we describe bigots.

 

[steve_bank]

Here in Seattle members of the city council want to cut the connection between 911 and the police.

Late lasy year two young black men with long felony records and no jail time killed and injured people in the opne in downtown Seattle in a gun battle. Fully automatic weapons. Like something out of a movie.

Seattle's progressive felony catch and release policy.

Nary a peep from the city council or anyone else.

It is going to get very bad here in the coming years.

 

[Worldtraveller]

You know what's funny here? Harry's defense of people in like professions defending each other. I can only really speak to my field (aviation engineering), but it's the exact fucking opposite of this behavior. Like police, the public safety is a big part of this job. If I find anything that looks sketchy, I assume simple human error initially, but if the engineer or mechanic insists that something is fine and it isn't, the fucking FAA is on speed dial and I will ground an airframe and stop an entire fucking shop from working within 5 minutes.

I shut down an entire production line for 3 days once at a major OEM aircraft manufacturing facility to make sure a part that we discovered had some issues was safe. I've also told the customer (who happened to be the USAF) to fuck off, that we weren't going to "fix" something that wasn't broken, and was an indication that they were flying the aircraft beyond it's design limits. So yeah, cops would make lousy fuckin' engineers.

I see people covering for their partners all the time. You work in aviation? You've never heard of air traffic controllers and pilots covering for each other? Happens all the time. I was an air traffic controller. Every word that is said by a controller or a pilot is recorded. It's also a huge problem in medicine. Doctors cover for other doctors, nurses, specialists and etc.

You guys are trying to create a narrative that police are uniquely evil and special. Where's the evidence of this? Where's your link? The police are just like you and I. There are some bad ones in the group. Sure they tend to be more blue collar and dogmatically suspicious. They aren't paid a lot. And they mostly hang out with bad people all day.

The big difference (huuuuge, you might say) is that there is no qualified immunity for doctors, engineers, pilots, dog catchers, bus drivers, baristas, or you know, anyone but cops that kill people with impunity. Also, what happens if you, as an ATC get caught doing something that might endanger people's lives, and the person covering you also gets caught? You get a few days administrative leave (paid) until things blow over?

I might also point out one other major difference: There aren't a bunch of authoritarian bootlickers lining up to protect you if you fuck up (and it gets caught on video) as an ATC...or barista.

If you still can't see the difference, then there's no point talking to you anymore. But I'll give you one more chance.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You know what's funny here? Harry's defense of people in like professions defending each other. I can only really speak to my field (aviation engineering), but it's the exact fucking opposite of this behavior. Like police, the public safety is a big part of this job. If I find anything that looks sketchy, I assume simple human error initially, but if the engineer or mechanic insists that something is fine and it isn't, the fucking FAA is on speed dial and I will ground an airframe and stop an entire fucking shop from working within 5 minutes.

I shut down an entire production line for 3 days once at a major OEM aircraft manufacturing facility to make sure a part that we discovered had some issues was safe. I've also told the customer (who happened to be the USAF) to fuck off, that we weren't going to "fix" something that wasn't broken, and was an indication that they were flying the aircraft beyond it's design limits. So yeah, cops would make lousy fuckin' engineers.

I see people covering for their partners all the time. You work in aviation? You've never heard of air traffic controllers and pilots covering for each other? Happens all the time. I was an air traffic controller. Every word that is said by a controller or a pilot is recorded. It's also a huge problem in medicine. Doctors cover for other doctors, nurses, specialists and etc.

You guys are trying to create a narrative that police are uniquely evil and special. Where's the evidence of this? Where's your link? The police are just like you and I. There are some bad ones in the group. Sure they tend to be more blue collar and dogmatically suspicious. They aren't paid a lot. And they mostly hang out with bad people all day.

The big difference (huuuuge, you might say) is that there is no qualified immunity for doctors, engineers, pilots, dog catchers, bus drivers, baristas, or you know, anyone but cops that kill people with impunity. Also, what happens if you, as an ATC get caught doing something that might endanger people's lives, and the person covering you also gets caught? You get a few days administrative leave (paid) until things blow over?

I might also point out one other major difference: There aren't a bunch of authoritarian bootlickers lining up to protect you if you fuck up (and it gets caught on video) as an ATC...or barista.

If you still can't see the difference, then there's no point talking to you anymore. But I'll give you one more chance.

I'm not an expert on qualified immunity. From what I've been told it protects officers from civil lawsuits as long as their conduct does not violate clearly established law or conduct does not violate clearly established law or constitutional rights of which a reasonable officer would have known. Sounds reasonable to me.

Bottom line. I'm done in the thread. It's gotten too personal for me. The people making the case that all police are evil and deserve death are no different than the bigots who claim that all blacks are shifty and dangerous. In both cases, people with these beliefs put honest people in danger. My sister works as a cop in one of the most dangerous crime ridden areas in the country. She's a great cop and cares about her community. She would not cross the line to cover for a bad cop because that could put her in danger. But of course she loves her fellow cops because they count on each other keep each other safe. I'm out.

 

[steve_bank]

It is looking like the Seattle city council has a veto proof majority to implement a 50% funding reduction for police.

The police chief calls it a dangerous implementation of an untested theory, the idea that somehow reducing policing for 'community policing' will result in reduced crime.

 

[angelo]

Right got it! Only do-gooders and and scum of the Earth rapists, robbers and other undesirables should become cops. Honest law abiding citizens are not welcome in law enforcement. That figures!

Spoken like someone who hasn't seen Blue Murder or Scales of Justice, I see. I guess you think it's fine watching a buddy choke a nigger to death for nine minutes. Nothing wrong there. But if the same cop choked a dago to death for nine minutes, why do I think you would be upset?

Just a feeling. Purely speculative on my part.

A 26 year old indigenous person just murdered a 45 year old " dago" nightclub manager,who left a wife with a five year old little girl and she's also five months pregnant. Incidence happened outside a kebab shop in the central entertainment center of Perth known as Northbridge. No dago, or white gangs went on a rampage. In fact it didn't even make front page news here. Reverse the events, what do you think would happen? You're thinking is typically Leftist.

 

[Mumbles]

A 26 year old indigenous person just murdered a 45 year old " dago" nightclub manager,who left a wife with a five year old little girl and she's also five months pregnant. Incidence happened outside a kebab shop in the central entertainment center of Perth known as Northbridge. No dago, or white gangs went on a rampage. In fact it didn't even make front page news here. Reverse the events, what do you think would happen? You're thinking is typically Leftist.

If Australia's anything like the US - still doesn't make front page news, like the vast majority of murders. Unless there's video, or there's something to really make it stand out from the crowd, it'd be covered by local news, and that's about it. And even then, it's often more due to protestors than anything else - the Lloyd murder mostly caught attention not because of the video, but because of the rioting (both by random people *and* by the PD) that followed.

 

[angelo]

It also didn't help that the obliging media made Lloyd into a saint when in reality he had a criminal record a meter long. That's not to condone the cop who acted way out of line, and he will face a court of law on a charge of manslaughter at least.

 

[cycomiko]

Here in Seattle members of the city council want to cut the connection between 911 and the police.

Late lasy year two young black men with long felony records and no jail time killed and injured people in the opne in downtown Seattle in a gun battle. Fully automatic weapons. Like something out of a movie.

Seattle's progressive felony catch and release policy.

Nary a peep from the city council or anyone else.

It is going to get very bad here in the coming years.

isn't the idea that it doesn't necessarily need to be the cops that show up to every 911 call? cops aren't trained to deescalate a situation involving a mental illness. i don't mind training up different responders for different situations since not all situations require a guy a with a gun and a badge. i'm for funding/training the police differently and think the whole "defund the police" slogan is a bit misleading and off-putting to some.

i was down on 3rd just a few hours before that gun battle. it was in january by that mcdonalds, right? i recall seeing statements from city council members as well as the gov. and the mayor the next morning.

as for the catch/release thing, the mayor is adding more lawyers to the city attorney's office in response to the report by the downtown alliance pointing out how fucked up the system currently is. i agree they should rethink the whole approach but it, at least to me, seems like someone is thinking about it.

 

[Worldtraveller]

It is looking like the Seattle city council has a veto proof majority to implement a 50% funding reduction for police.

The police chief calls it a dangerous implementation of an untested theory, the idea that somehow reducing policing for 'community policing' will result in reduced crime.

That's because the police chief is framing it as 'police protect people from crime'. That's not the case.

How many calls that, by default, go to the police, would better be responded by CPS, a family counselor, an on call psychiatrist or similar person who is (and this part is important) actually interested in helping people, and not 1) heavily armed; 2) on an authority kick ?

The fact that the police chief and cops are still dishonestly framing this is pretty much the #1 indicator that defunding is probably needed.

 

[steve_bank]

It is looking like the Seattle city council has a veto proof majority to implement a 50% funding reduction for police.

The police chief calls it a dangerous implementation of an untested theory, the idea that somehow reducing policing for 'community policing' will result in reduced crime.

That's because the police chief is framing it as 'police protect people from crime'. That's not the case.

How many calls that, by default, go to the police, would better be responded by CPS, a family counselor, an on call psychiatrist or similar person who is (and this part is important) actually interested in helping people, and not 1) heavily armed; 2) on an authority kick ?

The fact that the police chief and cops are still dishonestly framing this is pretty much the #1 indicator that defunding is probably needed.

All drugs in Seattle have been decriminalized, including heroin.

I live on a main downtown street. We have people passed out on our doorstep. People do drugs without fear on our stepI watched someone shooting up in plain sight in a nearby park.

It is the progressive city council policies. They thgink decreasing police with community policing, without ay definition, will reduce crime. Get caught in an assault or robbery and you are handed over to the community for rehabilitation.

Beyond hype, one of council members wooers to be a Marxists who has said publicly the goal is to tear down the entire system. Replacing it with a 'true democracy'.

The city is out of control and has been for a while. Progressive city council who want to remake the city into ther vision of justice, a weak mayor, and a police chief who appears to be the only voice of reason.

It is looking like Venezuela. Incompetent ideologues destroy the economy in the name of the pole, and the country collapses.

It really does look like the extremist playbook in Seattle. Sow chaos and install a power base. Drugs and homeless. We have a nearby camp. We watch people walk out and make drug transactions, and go back to the camp. Police are powerless.

 

[steve_bank]

Here in Seattle members of the city council want to cut the connection between 911 and the police.

Late lasy year two young black men with long felony records and no jail time killed and injured people in the opne in downtown Seattle in a gun battle. Fully automatic weapons. Like something out of a movie.

Seattle's progressive felony catch and release policy.

Nary a peep from the city council or anyone else.

It is going to get very bad here in the coming years.

isn't the idea that it doesn't necessarily need to be the cops that show up to every 911 call? cops aren't trained to deescalate a situation involving a mental illness. i don't mind training up different responders for different situations since not all situations require a guy a with a gun and a badge. i'm for funding/training the police differently and think the whole "defund the police" slogan is a bit misleading and off-putting to some.

i was down on 3rd just a few hours before that gun battle. it was in january by that mcdonalds, right? i recall seeing statements from city council members as well as the gov. and the mayor the next morning.

as for the catch/release thing, the mayor is adding more lawyers to the city attorney's office in response to the report by the downtown alliance pointing out how fucked up the system currently is. i agree they should rethink the whole approach but it, at least to me, seems like someone is thinking about it.

It has been clearly stated in public. The council progressives want to dismantle the entire justice system in favor of a community handling it own problems. It is what the demonstrators want.

There appears to be consensus with the police union that they would like to shed all social service related functions, but its not enough for the radicals.

 

[Worldtraveller]

It is looking like the Seattle city council has a veto proof majority to implement a 50% funding reduction for police.

The police chief calls it a dangerous implementation of an untested theory, the idea that somehow reducing policing for 'community policing' will result in reduced crime.

That's because the police chief is framing it as 'police protect people from crime'. That's not the case.

How many calls that, by default, go to the police, would better be responded by CPS, a family counselor, an on call psychiatrist or similar person who is (and this part is important) actually interested in helping people, and not 1) heavily armed; 2) on an authority kick ?

The fact that the police chief and cops are still dishonestly framing this is pretty much the #1 indicator that defunding is probably needed.

All drugs in Seattle have been decriminalized, including heroin.

I live on a main downtown street. We have people passed out on our doorstep. People do drugs without fear on our stepI watched someone shooting up in plain sight in a nearby park.

It is the progressive city council policies. They thgink decreasing police with community policing, without ay definition, will reduce crime. Get caught in an assault or robbery and you are handed over to the community for rehabilitation.

Beyond hype, one of council members wooers to be a Marxists who has said publicly the goal is to tear down the entire system. Replacing it with a 'true democracy'.

The city is out of control and has been for a while. Progressive city council who want to remake the city into ther vision of justice, a weak mayor, and a police chief who appears to be the only voice of reason.

It is looking like Venezuela. Incompetent ideologues destroy the economy in the name of the pole, and the country collapses.

It really does look like the extremist playbook in Seattle. Sow chaos and install a power base. Drugs and homeless. We have a nearby camp. We watch people walk out and make drug transactions, and go back to the camp. Police are powerless.

There's so much FUD here that it's really hard to believe you aren't just watching faux noise and making this shit up.

I've lived overseas where drugs were pretty much legal, and walked by people shooting up in relatively public places. So? They weren't accosting me, and I never felt in any fear of them.

Are those people hurting you, threatening you? If not, mind your own fucking business. Sure, they probably need help, and that's part of what the defunding will do, send money to agencies that will try to help those who want it.

 

[steve_bank]

All drugs in Seattle have been decriminalized, including heroin.

I live on a main downtown street. We have people passed out on our doorstep. People do drugs without fear on our stepI watched someone shooting up in plain sight in a nearby park.

It is the progressive city council policies. They thgink decreasing police with community policing, without ay definition, will reduce crime. Get caught in an assault or robbery and you are handed over to the community for rehabilitation.

Beyond hype, one of council members wooers to be a Marxists who has said publicly the goal is to tear down the entire system. Replacing it with a 'true democracy'.

The city is out of control and has been for a while. Progressive city council who want to remake the city into ther vision of justice, a weak mayor, and a police chief who appears to be the only voice of reason.

It is looking like Venezuela. Incompetent ideologues destroy the economy in the name of the pole, and the country collapses.

It really does look like the extremist playbook in Seattle. Sow chaos and install a power base. Drugs and homeless. We have a nearby camp. We watch people walk out and make drug transactions, and go back to the camp. Police are powerless.

There's so much FUD here that it's really hard to believe you aren't just watching faux noise and making this shit up.

I've lived overseas where drugs were pretty much legal, and walked by people shooting up in relatively public places. So? They weren't accosting me, and I never felt in any fear of them.

Are those people hurting you, threatening you? If not, mind your own fucking business. Sure, they probably need help, and that's part of what the defunding will do, send money to agencies that will try to help those who want it.

I listen to the main local media broadcasts.

Come to Seattle and walk down 3rd Ave. The courthouse had to close an entrance because it was too dangerous for workers. Somebody got shot. Trash all around, drunks and drug user surrounding the area. Pioneer Square is an open drug market. Everybody knows it, the police are hindered by policy from the council. If somebody sleeps in fron of your busness shitting openly on the sidewalk the police can remove the person by force.

Seattle is in a bad way. My building was shot in a drive by. A number of people in my building have been assaulted.

Last Saturday we had two street people who managed to get into the building. I interrupted one trying to steal our computers. Another ransacked our community room. It has happened so often we do not call the police. They are too understaffed to respond.

Shall I go on? City council members are being explicit, no interpretation.

The council wants 50% reduction without any analysis of the effects. Progressive ideologues. On Wednesday there will be a counter protest supporting police against the council at city hall. If I can manage it I will be there.

Since I moved to the building in November I had 3 confontaions where the street people backd down. I know how to use my cane and would not hesitate to do what I have to.

A resident was knocked down outside the building for no good reason. A woman was punched in the face.

Are you one of those progressives out of touch with reality?

Sometimes a few of us sweep the buking. We are seniors and not all can fend for themselves.

It is not just me. Several business chains have closed the downtown stores. Vandalism, fires, theft, assaults'. The Seattle catch and release policy. Someone got caught robbing a store. Booked and released, went back and robbed the same store.

 

[TSwizzle]

I live on a main downtown street. We have people passed out on our doorstep. People do drugs without fear on our stepI watched someone shooting up in plain sight in a nearby park.
It really does look like the extremist playbook in Seattle. Sow chaos and install a power base. Drugs and homeless. We have a nearby camp. We watch people walk out and make drug transactions, and go back to the camp. Police are powerless.

It's like that in parts of Los Angeles. Utopia for the progressives that don't have to live with the filth.

 

[Trausti]

Seattle has taken a few hits recently. Before the virus there was a shooting downtown that scared people away. Homelessness and open crime. Thefts not prosecuted. Repeat offenders turned loose. Next the virus. Then the riots. Now the head tax and defunding police. My office is downtown but have not been there for months. Zero interest in going to Seattle. Many people like me. And Amazon is slowly moving to Bellevue. At some point soon the city council will have killed the goose that laid the golden egg. The city once awash in cash will be in a deficit hole of its own making.

 

[Politesse]

Being "awash in cash" also created a lot of the problems you are describing, though. Do you really believe that if they brought in the attack dogs and arrested every last protester and all the homeless people, made every crime a life sentence to avoid recidivism, elected Republicans to every civic and state offices, and paid consulting companies to "clean up the streets" downtown with bulldozers and formaldehyde as per 90's style urban renewal projects, that Seattle would become a utopia with even more skyrocketing land value and no social problems? That sort of socially unconscious bullshit is what got Seattle into this mess to begin with, and going back to it would only reset the clock for a few years.

 

[Trausti]

Being "awash in cash" also created a lot of the problems you are describing, though. Do you really believe that if they brought in the attack dogs and arrested every last protester and all the homeless people, made every crime a life sentence to avoid recidivism, elected Republicans to every civic and state offices, and paid consulting companies to "clean up the streets" downtown with bulldozers and formaldahyde as per 90's style urban renewal projects, that Seattle would become a utopia with even more skyrocketing land value and no social problems?

When a city incentives lawlessness and disorder, those who favor law and order - the people who generate the economic activity and wealth - will leave. E.g., the city prosecutor will not prosecute minor theft. The result is a downtown drug store closed because it was subjected to daily shoplifting.