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Defunding the Police?

Being "awash in cash" also created a lot of the problems you are describing, though. Do you really believe that if they brought in the attack dogs and arrested every last protester and all the homeless people, made every crime a life sentence to avoid recidivism, elected Republicans to every civic and state offices, and paid consulting companies to "clean up the streets" downtown with bulldozers and formaldahyde as per 90's style urban renewal projects, that Seattle would become a utopia with even more skyrocketing land value and no social problems?

When a city incentives lawlessness and disorder, those who favor law and order - the people who generate the economic activity and wealth - will leave. E.g., the city prosecutor will not prosecute minor theft. The result is a downtown drug store closed because it was subjected to daily shoplifting.
So you do feel that turning the city into a police state, arresting away all of its problems, would help? How? The system is still a revolving door, even if you arrest everyone and keep them behind bars for a few years they still eventually get released and no doubt resume their lives of crime. Emotionally gratifying for the pilfered, I suppose, but how is it supposed to reduce crime?
 
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In Wake Of Continued Gun Violence, Prominent Members Of Black Community Call On NYPD To Bring Back Anti-Crime Unit


What is the BLM body count now? Have we exceeded post-Ferguson?
 
Being "awash in cash" also created a lot of the problems you are describing, though. Do you really believe that if they brought in the attack dogs and arrested every last protester and all the homeless people, made every crime a life sentence to avoid recidivism, elected Republicans to every civic and state offices, and paid consulting companies to "clean up the streets" downtown with bulldozers and formaldahyde as per 90's style urban renewal projects, that Seattle would become a utopia with even more skyrocketing land value and no social problems?

When a city incentives lawlessness and disorder, those who favor law and order - the people who generate the economic activity and wealth - will leave. E.g., the city prosecutor will not prosecute minor theft. The result is a downtown drug store closed because it was subjected to daily shoplifting.
So you do feel that turning the city into a police state, arresting away all of its problems, would help? How? The system is still a revolving door, even if you arrest everyone and keep them behind bars for a few years they still eventually get released and no doubt resume their lives of crime. Emotionally gratifying for the pilfered, I suppose, but how is it supposed to reduce crime?

That old and trusted saying of do the crime do the time has never been more appropriate than right now. Relax the law by even just a small percentage point would see the crime rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
 
So you do feel that turning the city into a police state, arresting away all of its problems, would help? How? The system is still a revolving door, even if you arrest everyone and keep them behind bars for a few years they still eventually get released and no doubt resume their lives of crime. Emotionally gratifying for the pilfered, I suppose, but how is it supposed to reduce crime?

That old and trusted saying of do the crime do the time has never been more appropriate than right now. Relax the law by even just a small percentage point would see the crime rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
So, we should increase the number of laws and extend the length of sentences until crime is eliminated?

How do you feel about widespread cameras and recorders, so that we catch every crime? Perhaps AI monitors or "bots" programmed to notice and respond to all crimes automatically with mandatory sentencing? Random stops and seizures "on suspicion" of all citizens at any time regardless of race?

Or is persecuting crime something that needs to, on some level, be balanced against your rights and freedoms as a citizen? If so, it will not be possible to catch and punish every crime consistently.
 
That old and trusted saying of do the crime do the time has never been more appropriate than right now. Relax the law by even just a small percentage point would see the crime rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
I marvel at how right-wingers are eager to defend government coercion. It's almost as if they are too lazy to protect themselves. Considering what right-wingers feel about taxes, one gets the impression that they want government protection for free, contrary to their loud assertion that nothing is ever free. It is also contrary to their loud assertion that government can never do anything right.
 
That old and trusted saying of do the crime do the time has never been more appropriate than right now. Relax the law by even just a small percentage point would see the crime rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
I marvel at how right-wingers are eager to defend government coercion. It's almost as if they are too lazy to protect themselves. Considering what right-wingers feel about taxes, one gets the impression that they want government protection for free, contrary to their loud assertion that nothing is ever free. It is also contrary to their loud assertion that government can never do anything right.
You don't actually expect consistency from authoritarian bootlickers do you?

I know you've read The Authoritarians. ;)
 
So you do feel that turning the city into a police state, arresting away all of its problems, would help? How? The system is still a revolving door, even if you arrest everyone and keep them behind bars for a few years they still eventually get released and no doubt resume their lives of crime. Emotionally gratifying for the pilfered, I suppose, but how is it supposed to reduce crime?

That old and trusted saying of do the crime do the time has never been more appropriate than right now. Relax the law by even just a small percentage point would see the crime rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
So, we should increase the number of laws and extend the length of sentences until crime is eliminated?

How do you feel about widespread cameras and recorders, so that we catch every crime? Perhaps AI monitors or "bots" programmed to notice and respond to all crimes automatically with mandatory sentencing? Random stops and seizures "on suspicion" of all citizens at any time regardless of race?

Or is persecuting crime something that needs to, on some level, be balanced against your rights and freedoms as a citizen? If so, it will not be possible to catch and punish every crime consistently.

You do not have the freedom or rights to break into my house and help yourself to my belongings, or to assault or worse my person for my cellphone or wallet etc. I expect you to get a job and work for any luxuries or even just everyday living expenses just like I did. If you don't want to do that, but rather rob and assault people for their goods, then I expect you get arrested and charged and given a long enough holiday in a correctional facility..........Yes!
 
That old and trusted saying of do the crime do the time has never been more appropriate than right now. Relax the law by even just a small percentage point would see the crime rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
I marvel at how right-wingers are eager to defend government coercion. It's almost as if they are too lazy to protect themselves. Considering what right-wingers feel about taxes, one gets the impression that they want government protection for free, contrary to their loud assertion that nothing is ever free. It is also contrary to their loud assertion that government can never do anything right.

You'd rather see anarchy in the streets?
 
That old and trusted saying of do the crime do the time has never been more appropriate than right now. Relax the law by even just a small percentage point would see the crime rate skyrocket to unprecedented levels.
I marvel at how right-wingers are eager to defend government coercion. It's almost as if they are too lazy to protect themselves. Considering what right-wingers feel about taxes, one gets the impression that they want government protection for free, contrary to their loud assertion that nothing is ever free. It is also contrary to their loud assertion that government can never do anything right.
You'd rather see anarchy in the streets?
Anarchy is the ultimate in less government, so I thought that you wanted that.

New Nonprofit Aims to End School-to-Prison Pipeline – Maryland Matters
Earlier this year, a certain Mckayla Wilkes ran for House of Reps seat MD-05 against Steny Hoyer, Democratic Majority Leader, someone who has been in the House since 1981, nearly a decade before MW was born.

After he aunt died around the 2001 Sept 11 attacks, she came to suffer from undiagnosed depression.
That really played a huge part in me acting out — my grief turning into rebellion,” she said.

As a teen, she skipped school, ran away from home and ended up in juvenile detention.

Wilkes said the courts ignored her trauma and criminalized her mental health issues — deeming her a “bad kid” — a term she no longer believes in using. For every one day of school she missed, she would spend another 10 in juvenile detention.

“Even something as much as getting bad grades could lead me into juvenile detention,” Wilkes explained. “And so I really wanted to start this organization to end the school-to-prison pipeline, so that stories like mine cease to happen.”
Two of MW's campaigners ended up founding Schools Not Jails as a result of MW's campaigning. It involved visiting lots of people and asking about their concerns, and the school-to-prison pipeline was one of them. So those campaigners decided to continue their work on a local and state level, where much of that action is.
Wilkes said that the organization will rally around a combination of policing, criminal justice and education reform, including removing school resource officers from public school campuses.

“My son is in third grade, and there is an armed police officer at his school when he [went] to school every single day before quarantine,” she said. “But it’s still a thing.”

In the immediate, Schools Not Jails has its eyes focused on November’s local board of education and Circuit Court judge elections in Prince George’s and Charles counties.

...
Wilkes said that collaboration with other, local nonprofits and advocacy groups is an effort to “organiz[e] the left.”

“One of the things that we saw on the campaign trail is that as progressives, we really have to get more organized so that we can get more progressive people elected,” she said. “And so that’s one of our focuses as well, is building coalitions with other organizations in the area.”
 
So, we should increase the number of laws and extend the length of sentences until crime is eliminated?

How do you feel about widespread cameras and recorders, so that we catch every crime? Perhaps AI monitors or "bots" programmed to notice and respond to all crimes automatically with mandatory sentencing? Random stops and seizures "on suspicion" of all citizens at any time regardless of race?

Or is persecuting crime something that needs to, on some level, be balanced against your rights and freedoms as a citizen? If so, it will not be possible to catch and punish every crime consistently.

You do not have the freedom or rights to break into my house and help yourself to my belongings, or to assault or worse my person for my cellphone or wallet etc. I expect you to get a job and work for any luxuries or even just everyday living expenses just like I did. If you don't want to do that, but rather rob and assault people for their goods, then I expect you get arrested and charged and given a long enough holiday in a correctional facility..........Yes!

Didn't answer my question. I find that folks on the right love to criticize the managment of the nation's most prosperous and popular cities, presumably out of embarassment, but are short on actual solutions to the problems they pose.
 
Didn't answer my question. I find that folks on the right love to criticize the managment of the nation's most prosperous and popular cities, presumably out of embarassment,
Well, bums pooping on sidewalks with impunity IS pretty embarrassing. :)
San Francisco’s poop problem is only getting worse

but are short on actual solutions to the problems they pose.
Well first one would need to stop digging the hole even deeper. For example, not electing terrorist spawn like Chesa Boudin as DA.
 
So, we should increase the number of laws and extend the length of sentences until crime is eliminated?

How do you feel about widespread cameras and recorders, so that we catch every crime? Perhaps AI monitors or "bots" programmed to notice and respond to all crimes automatically with mandatory sentencing? Random stops and seizures "on suspicion" of all citizens at any time regardless of race?

Or is persecuting crime something that needs to, on some level, be balanced against your rights and freedoms as a citizen? If so, it will not be possible to catch and punish every crime consistently.

You do not have the freedom or rights to break into my house and help yourself to my belongings, or to assault or worse my person for my cellphone or wallet etc. I expect you to get a job and work for any luxuries or even just everyday living expenses just like I did. If you don't want to do that, but rather rob and assault people for their goods, then I expect you get arrested and charged and given a long enough holiday in a correctional facility..........Yes!

Didn't answer my question. I find that folks on the right love to criticize the managment of the nation's most prosperous and popular cities, presumably out of embarassment, but are short on actual solutions to the problems they pose.
Also, police don't actually protect against those things. They only investigate after the fact, and unless there was an assault, there are rarely any results (it's left to the insurance). If you actually want protection, you're either on your own (home security) or you might organize a neighborhood watch. Hey, that might be a good use for some of that excess money from defunding the cops!
 
Anarchy is the ultimate in less government, so I thought that you wanted that.

You have this tendency of straw-manning rightwing arguments. It really does no favors to the positions you are a proponent of.
Maybe a little, but there's really no straw man too extreme when it comes to trying to 'characterize' angelo's 'position'.
 
Didn't answer my question. I find that folks on the right love to criticize the managment of the nation's most prosperous and popular cities, presumably out of embarassment,
Well, bums pooping on sidewalks with impunity IS pretty embarrassing. :)
San Francisco’s poop problem is only getting worse

but are short on actual solutions to the problems they pose.
Well first one would need to stop digging the hole even deeper. For example, not electing terrorist spawn like Chesa Boudin as DA.

Case in point. You know how to re-post sensationalist articles about what "libs" are doing wrong, but no suggestion whatsoever as to what one might do better. Most serious measures that have been proposed, you would oppose.

It would, for instance, take care of SF's downtown poop problem overnight if businesses were simply required by law to open up their restrooms for public use, or contrarily if public bathrooms were more frequent and well-maintained. Given that almost all the problem areas are also major tourist spots, either measure would instantly pay for itself in recovered commercial and tax revenue. Public housing projects, rent control problems, and eviction stays would also help, since less people would be homeless in the first place, and people who own toilets don't usually go in the bushes.

Arresting people for pooping isn't a solution, since that both obliges the government to pay for their toiletries directly for a while on the taxpayer's dime, exactly what you lot are supposedly unwilling to do, and puts them right back where they started once they are released a few weeks later, without having addressed the underlying issue. "Well, now that you've had to shit in a metal pipe for a few days, I'm sure you learned your lesson about never shitting in alleys instead. Good luck out there, convicted felon! See you in a few weeks!"

The biggest cause of homelessness is lack of homes. The biggest cause of shit on the streets is lack of toilets. Solving these things isn't a logistical problem, it's a political problem. And you aren't helping either.
 
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Case in point. You know how to re-post sensationalist articles about what "libs" are doing wrong,
There are plenty of examples of what conservatives are doing wrong, just as there are plenty of examples of what faux-liberals are doing wrong. Dysfunctions in major cities are almost universally examples of what "libs" are doing wrong.

but no suggestion whatsoever as to what one might do better. Most serious measures that have been proposed, you would oppose.
Before you can even start to make things better, one would have to stop digging. Electing Chesa Boudin, who is so soft on crime he is a fluid, as DA is not stopping digging, it's getting a backhoe!

It would, for instance, take care of SF's downtown poop problem overnight if businesses were simply required by law to open up their restrooms for public use, or contrarily if public bathrooms were more frequent and well-maintained.
I don't think businesses should be required to open their restrooms to non-customers. Especially since the homeless are also frequently drug users and may use the bathrooms to shoot up.
Public restrooms may be a solution, but again, it's difficult to keep them well-maintained and well-cleaned if bums can use them freely.

First thing that needs to be considered is why are there so many urban outdoorsmen in SF?

It's probably due to overly permissive attitude by the city government.


Given that almost all the problem areas are also major tourist spots, either measure would instantly pay for itself in recovered commercial and tax revenue.
I doubt tourists want to see people shoot up in the bathroom of their Fisherman's Wharf restaurant.

Public housing projects, rent control problems, and eviction stays would also help, since less people would be homeless in the first place, and people who own toilets don't usually go in the bushes.
Public housing would be a solution for those who find themselves homeless temporarily due to some financial setback. The real homeless, those who use a rat as a phone (Atlanta joke, SCNR), tend to often be mentally ill and would not be really helped by that.
I am against rent control in principle as it fucks with landlords who want to make a return on their investment and also need to be able to pay for maintenance/improvements out of the rent revenues. Therefore, it discouraging building of new housing units.

It also leads to unjust situations where some rent controlled apartments go for comically low amounts while a similar apartment next door may go for a multiple of that price.
Why Rent Control Doesn’t Work (Ep. 373)
The one issue every economist can agree is bad: Rent control

If somebody can't afford to live in SF proper because the rent is too damn high, what's wrong with moving to the burbs? It's not a binary choice between living in a house in SF or living in the streets in SF. Bridges work in both directions!

Arresting people for pooping isn't a solution, since that both obliges the government to pay for their toiletries directly for a while on the taxpayer's dime, exactly what you lot are supposedly unwilling to do, and puts them right back where they started once they are released a few weeks later, without having addressed the underlying issue.
If they are mentally ill, it should be easier to commit those people to mental hospitals. It is very difficult to involuntarily commit people these days.

"Well, now that you've had to shit in a metal pipe for a few days, I'm sure you learned your lesson about never shitting in alleys instead. Good luck out there, convicted felon! See you in a few weeks!"
There must be a possibility of a middle ground between "sidewalk pooping is fine, in fact, we welcome all homeless to come to our city to poop on our sidewalks" and "sidewalk pooping is a felony".

The biggest cause of homelessness is lack of homes. The biggest cause of shit on the streets is lack of toilets. Solving these things isn't a logistical problem, it's a political problem. And you aren't helping either.
Neither are SF elected leaders, and they have both the means and the responsibility to do something.
 
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